What do you think should be done about stage 16?

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What would you do about stage 16?

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murali said:
sad to see over 50% voting to keep results as it is, and only ~ 30% voting to fix the results adjusting for that dirty move
Agree with the first part. Misinformation and fanboyism led to that unfair voting result. Btw, it wasn't a dirty move by the lead group (re-read this thread again).
 
May 25, 2011
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Afrank said:
Well, that's the one thing (literally the only thing) your right about. This Giro will be remembered for the epic and great riding by Quintana as he stormed up the Val Martello and into the Maglia Rosa. :D
Since we are not allowed to ignore you, could you try to keep the trolling to a minimum please?

Thank you in advance.
 
Aug 16, 2011
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inri2000 said:
Since we are not allowed to ignore you, could you try to keep the trolling to a minimum please?

Thank you in advance.
Missed the smily? Not trolling, just make a small joke on how awesome of a ride Nairito put in up Val Martello. :)
 
May 25, 2011
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Afrank said:
Missed the smily? Not trolling, just make a small joke on how awesome of a ride Nairito put in up Val Martello. :)
Fair enough, I'm just disappointed in this farce of a Giro, Evans, Rolland and Ryder are not in their true GC positions.
 
What = Neutralization of the downhill section
Why = high risk to riders.
Who = To be carried out by the race organizers
When = Before the final Climb
How = Stoppage, time deduction, DSQ
Punishment = to be handed out by UCI
If such a step was to be taken the race organizers should have stopped the front group till it was grouppo compacto. There was enough time to do so. They denied having neutralized the downhill section. Ergo what the front group did is within rules. If not then the UCI should have punished them which it always does in cases like irregular sprinting. It did not do so. How could it when the race was not neutralized. The blame for this entire episode is with the race organisers with the front group culpable only of unfair tactics.
 
I don't even know how unfair the tactics were. Unless definitively stated otherwise, there is a race going on. Some riders were told in terms that seemed definitive that there was no racing, others were aware racing was continuing but were happy to stop with the main leaders thinking nothing would happen. Some riders were told in terms that didn't seem definitive so elected not to stop racing until told otherwise, and some simply weren't told anything.

Knowing who knew what and had been told what would require listening back to all the race radio, all the different teams' internal communications as well. Different riders and teams were interpreting the signals differently, and I mean all the different signals, from the Race Radio messages to the existence of motorbikes, what flags meant, and what constitutes an attack and what remaining in a group means and whether an impromptu pit stop, welcome or not, should be part of that.

The race radio is already going to leave egg on the faces of the organizers, because they've admitted as much, so the chances of anything else being publicized and us getting to the bottom of this are minimal. No team is going to wilfully broadcast their instructions to the riders, because if they told the riders "yea, it's neutralized, you can stop for a rest" they look like idiots, and if they told the riders "push on, everyone else is stopping!" they look like cheats; anything in between is going to need the race radio information broadcast to put it into context.
 
May 28, 2014
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My personal translation of part of Majka's interview to polish press:

"In future, it can be so that leader will stop because of physiological problems and we will attack. If cycling is like that, they do not respect us, we will not respect them".
 
Jun 29, 2009
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i just watched the replay of the descent: Cataldo was leading the race at the time. as he started his descent he had one car in front of him. the car wasn't waving a red flag, not at the beginning of his descent and not at any other time when we get a shot of him thereafter. the commentary on eurosport was along the lines of "wow! Cataldo seems to be pedalling this one really hard, this isn't exactly what i would call a neutralized stage". the car in front of Cataldo was in no way trying to slow him down, it was just keeping a constant distance of 40-50 meters.

so Cataldo was allowed by the organisers to push on as hard as he wanted, while the chasers Rolland and Quintana were expected to stay behind a red flag: the red flag was applied inconsistently allowing Cataldo to build up his advantage (i don't know if he did build it up, but he was allowed to).

and so my little conclusion is that: it would be unfair for the organisers to deduct any time from Quintana since he had been put at a disadvantage versus Cataldo.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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observer said:
doesn't the race director drive with a red flag at the start of each stage to signify neutralisation?
The commissaire holds the red flag at the front and when a commissaire puts out a red flag it means do not pass. These guys on the scooters are marshals, not officials. their red flag means nothing in this context. I am sure the race bible had not mention of special purpose for red flags when shown by a moto marshal.
 
Jun 29, 2009
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Quintana started the 20km climb with an "advantage" of 1 minute 30.

but since when exactly is 1 minute 30 an advantage on a 20km climb? especially if we consider that he had no help for 18km of it while the chasers, who are very good climbers by the way, could count on Vuillermoz, Dupont, Rodgers and Brambilla for more than half of it.

his advantage was not in the 1 min 30, his real advantage is to have been out of the sight of the chasers.

(hm..., i realise i'm being slightly off topic here)
 
Master50 said:
The commissaire holds the red flag at the front and when a commissaire puts out a red flag it means do not pass. These guys on the scooters are marshals, not officials. their red flag means nothing in this context. I am sure the race bible had not mention of special purpose for red flags when shown by a moto marshal.
The problem is that in cycling it is the riders who decide to go slow if there is huge risk and even then it is not unanimous as some riders accept that risk as well as they want to do well. The organisers only consider cancelling if is becomes impossible otherwise it is considered epic in the eyes of everybody except the riders
 
I'm not sure what can be done.
Quintana would have taken time anyway, and he definitely deserves some credit for that (as does everyone who rode the stage, to me annulling the results would basically be the same as going "You know what? Let's just pretend you never rode this stage anyway." don't think any of the riders would be happy with that.)
So, how would anyone even know what time was taken "unfairly" and what wasn't? If Quintana and co. should have some of their time taken away, shouldn't the people in charge go all the way through the riders to see if anyone else passed the moto? Then some people might turn out to have missed the time-cut...

I can't find the article with the radio-message, so I'll be honest and admit I simply don't remember if it ever said "do not pass the moto with the red flag." All I remember is; "Stay in your group." That's where it gets kinda complicated; to me "stay in your group." doesn't just mean; "don't attack." it could also mean "don't get dropped." As far as I remember the Quintana group stayed together all the way down, and had already left the Uran group behind before the top, so nobody broke the "stay in your group." rule, that group just went somewhat faster than the Uran group.

Not only do we have the question of whether or not the riders knew they (possibly) weren't supposed to pass the red flag, there's also another question:
Could they even see the flag? Yes, I know it's pretty clear on that picture, but when you're hurtling down-hill and your glasses get covered in rain/snow, well... seeing does become a bit of an issue.

I'll have to agree with the various people who've stated that when you have a leader's jersey you keep your eyes open to what's going on around you, no matter what some (ambigious) radio-message tells you, or at least you go ask what it meant, which nobody did. Can't help but thinking that this mess is rather great for you anti-radio people around; without radios nobody would've gotten the "neutralisation" message.

Then they came down to the valley, where I'd say it's pretty safe to say that the race was definitely on again; in Quintana's group everyone took turns pulling in the front, in Uran's group it was, for most of the time... Rogers and a Quickstep-guy. Yep, that'll help.:rolleyes:

As for the final climb; I'll say it's pretty safe to assume that Quintana would've left everyone behind anyway.

So, for now I think the only thing they can do is letting the results stand, but start thinking of a way to have some clearer rules about all this, and better communication, ASAP!

(okay... horrible disjoined post...)
 
Sep 21, 2009
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There's a missing option in this poll:

Post to the internet pictures taken by Thomas Dekker of riders hanging on the cars during the climbs :D
 
RedheadDane said:
I'm not sure what can be done.
Quintana would have taken time anyway, and he definitely deserves some credit for that (as does everyone who rode the stage, to me annulling the results would basically be the same as going "You know what? Let's just pretend you never rode this stage anyway." don't think any of the riders would be happy with that.)
So, how would anyone even know what time was taken "unfairly" and what wasn't? If Quintana and co. should have some of their time taken away, shouldn't the people in charge go all the way through the riders to see if anyone else passed the moto? Then some people might turn out to have missed the time-cut...

I can't find the article with the radio-message, so I'll be honest and admit I simply don't remember if it ever said "do not pass the moto with the red flag." All I remember is; "Stay in your group." That's where it gets kinda complicated; to me "stay in your group." doesn't just mean; "don't attack." it could also mean "don't get dropped." As far as I remember the Quintana group stayed together all the way down, and had already left the Uran group behind before the top, so nobody broke the "stay in your group." rule, that group just went somewhat faster than the Uran group.

Not only do we have the question of whether or not the riders knew they (possibly) weren't supposed to pass the red flag, there's also another question:
Could they even see the flag? Yes, I know it's pretty clear on that picture, but when you're hurtling down-hill and your glasses get covered in rain/snow, well... seeing does become a bit of an issue.

I'll have to agree with the various people who've stated that when you have a leader's jersey you keep your eyes open to what's going on around you, no matter what some (ambigious) radio-message tells you, or at least you go ask what it meant, which nobody did. Can't help but thinking that this mess is rather great for you anti-radio people around; without radios nobody would've gotten the "neutralisation" message.

Then they came down to the valley, where I'd say it's pretty safe to say that the race was definitely on again; in Quintana's group everyone took turns pulling in the front, in Uran's group it was, for most of the time... Rogers and a Quickstep-guy. Yep, that'll help.:rolleyes:

As for the final climb; I'll say it's pretty safe to assume that Quintana would've left everyone behind anyway.

So, for now I think the only thing they can do is letting the results stand, but start thinking of a way to have some clearer rules about all this, and better communication, ASAP!

(okay... horrible disjoined post...)
Excellent summary.

On the second bolded observation and to add to what somebody else already said. Cataldo did not see any red flag because there wasn't any in front of him. Just because he was not fighting for the general GC it does not mean that the rules do not apply to him either. So if Cataldo did it so could everyone else.
 
Mar 12, 2013
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With the way Aru is going today,you could easily be even more annoyed about what happened at this stage. The GC could possibly have been quite a lot more interesting, if the Giro leaders had not ****ed this up..

Not that Quintana would not have won the Giro anyway, would just have been a more exciting battle for pink..
 
Samson777 said:
With the way Aru is going today,you could easily be even more annoyed about what happened at this stage. The GC could possibly have been quite a lot more interesting, if the Giro leaders had not ****ed this up..

Not that Quintana would not have won the Giro anyway, would just have been a more exciting battle for pink..
You are probably right, but even Aru must be surprised at the way he is riding now. In many ocasions if the riders knew how they were going to ride toward the end of a race they would have ridden differently. Could have would have.

No changes for me IMHO. Until the next time with these two with clear objectives.
 
Nothing. But that doesn't change the fact that Quintana gained time because his rivals weren't racing in a critical moment through no fault of their own.

Never a good way to win and his Giro victory, unless he puts massive time into Aru and Uran on the Zoncolan tomorrow, will be tarnished as a result.
 
Jun 12, 2010
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Nothing should be done. The Uran group was big and had the opportunity with good collaboration to gain back time in the valley which they did not.

And the race organisators it its rcs or aso should stop screwing up their own race by not just make a clear statement to the riders to harden the f u c k up.
There is no need to neutralized any section. There is no need to leave out crostis descent and so on... When all the whiners don't won't to race then they shouldn't race and ride their bikes down the mountain in the tour mode and blame themselves but not anybody else.
 
Toughen up? Apparently most of them were dehydrated, had hypothermia and almost froze on the climbs. Sorensen rode with a concussion. Tons of people climbed on Montecassino injured, including Majka who could barely walk after coming off of the bike.
They are one of the toughest athletes out there, but going 70km/h downhill in wet conditions with fingers almost frozen and without being properly clothed (after all they werent supposed to stop to put on warmer clothing, right?) is just idiocy.
 
damian13ster said:
Toughen up? Apparently most of them were dehydrated, had hypothermia and almost froze on the climbs. Sorensen rode with a concussion. Tons of people climbed on Montecassino injured, including Majka who could barely walk after coming off of the bike.
They are one of the toughest athletes out there, but going 70km/h downhill in wet conditions with fingers almost frozen and without being properly clothed (after all they werent supposed to stop to put on warmer clothing, right?) is just idiocy.
The choice to stop or not to is theirs. There was nothing that said they weren't supposed to stop. Some riders were able to don their clothes without stopping while others chose to stop.

No doubt they're tough athletes. I've descended a mountain shortly before dusk in the early spring and my hands got so cold that I had to alternate sticking them under my jersey to avoid them freezing to the point that I couldn't use them to brake! My knees ached from the cold air hitting them and this was while wearing a pair of roubaix lined knickers. The conditions were no where as extreme as what Giro riders were experiencing so I can only imagine what they were going through.
 
rhubroma said:
No, because Aru has been just as strong.
Sorry in Cycling 2 + 2 ≠ 4. On stage 16 Aru wasn't in contention. He would haved just followed the pink jersey group, had they been together at the base of the last climb. Understand is RCS' fault, and nobody else's that Quintana, Rolland and Hesjedal had a gap.
 

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