What exactly made Armstrong so strong?

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May 14, 2010
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Frosty said:
His strength seemed to return when he disappeared off into the mountains with someone (Carmichael?)
I believe that person was Bob Roll.

Dr. Maserati said:
I would liken it to a racecar - Carmichael was the mechanic, Ferrari the engineer.

Armstrong was working with Ferrari from 96, visiting him in Ferrara and being tested there.
Ferrari is a hematologist with a good understanding of the sport.
Carmichael was a former Pro, and a coach who had some knowledge of doping and was not scared to inject people.
So they complemented each other.
I think you're giving Carmichael too much credit. I believe he was an old friend/co-conspirator from the (less sophisticated) early days. He was put forth as the official coach out of loyalty - as well as the fact, not incidental, that Armstrong is (purportedly) a big investor in Carmichael Training Systems. I suspect the reality is that Carmichael had little-to-nothing to do with Armstrong's training during the Tour wins (other than flunky type duties).
 
Aug 13, 2009
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thehog said:
Not really. This part is very new:

"...Armstrong had a special dispensation that allowed him to take up to 7 times the normal amount of testosterone that a normal male his age produces to make up for whatever deficiency he may suffer after having a testicle removed."
This has often been theorized but so far I have seen no evidence of it. None of his testing forms mentioned Test and there were no TUE's on file.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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Race Radio said:
This has often been theorized but so far I have seen no evidence of it. None of his testing forms mentioned Test and there were no TUE's on file.
You'd think that right off the bat (actual natural testosterone deficiency or not) he'd have gone for a TUE on that. Odd that he never did.

Wouldn't you want to milk the TUEs for all you can (just in case)? My guess is that the kind of testosterone one get prescribed for Juan Pelotitis is not the "good kind" a guy like Lance chooses to use anyway.
 
Dec 14, 2010
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Sounds like even the officials are still asking this same question.

http://twitter.com/lancearmstrong
"Spending the am w/ my ol' friends from USADA. Blood and urine control. Glad they are here to welcome me home."
about 3 hours ago via ÜberTwit

Arrogant to the very end, amazing.
 
Jun 18, 2009
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Berzin said:
There is no doubt that an increase in power, heretofore unrealized pre-1999, took place.
I disagree with your basic assertion right here. After watching the Tour DuPont where he crushed a pretty fit Rominger in the TT, I'd say he was fully formed by '96....which is incidentally the year after he started working with Ferrari. Funny how that worked out! I think the only reason he failed in that year's Tour was that the cancer had taken affect. Were it not for the cancer, he may have doped his way to 10 tour wins. I don't think cancer had anything to do with it.

To your question, you can produce the same amount of testosterone with one testicle, and removal alone doesn't affect sperm production; it's the chemo which can make you sterile.
 
Oct 6, 2009
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Maxiton said:
I believe that person was Bob Roll.


I think you're giving Carmichael too much credit. I believe he was an old friend/co-conspirator from the (less sophisticated) early days. He was put forth as the official coach out of loyalty - as well as the fact, not incidental, that Armstrong is (purportedly) a big investor in Carmichael Training Systems. I suspect the reality is that Carmichael had little-to-nothing to do with Armstrong's training during the Tour wins (other than flunky type duties).
But, but, but, Lance is a time-crunched cyclist! Between the Olson twins, and Matthew Mc, and raising funds, um, I mean awareness, and visits with his business partners, like Pat and Hein, Lance is the very definition of a time-crunched cyclist!
:p
 
May 14, 2010
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Beech Mtn said:
But, but, but, Lance is a time-crunched cyclist! Between the Olson twins, and Matthew Mc, and raising funds, um, I mean awareness, and visits with his business partners, like Pat and Hein, Lance is the very definition of a time-crunched cyclist!
:p
Right. And Carmichael is a credibility-crunched coach.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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Race Radio said:
This has often been theorized but so far I have seen no evidence of it. None of his testing forms mentioned Test and there were no TUE's on file.
Correct - it was the reason why the UCI's Dr. Zorzoli handed over LA's medical records to L'Equipes Damien Ressiot which was to lead to the connection between LA and the EPO samples of 1999.

Ressiot had claimed he wanted to see the 99 records to see if there were any TUE's or other medical notes in LA's file - there were none.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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131313 said:
I disagree with your basic assertion right here. After watching the Tour DuPont where he crushed a pretty fit Rominger in the TT, I'd say he was fully formed by '96....which is incidentally the year after he started working with Ferrari. Funny how that worked out! I think the only reason he failed in that year's Tour was that the cancer had taken affect. Were it not for the cancer, he may have doped his way to 10 tour wins. I don't think cancer had anything to do with it.

To your question, you can produce the same amount of testosterone with one testicle, and removal alone doesn't affect sperm production; it's the chemo which can make you sterile.
Just like we can function just fine with just one kidney. We have two for reasons of redundancy. Just like we've got two cajones.
 
Dec 7, 2010
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jimbob_in_co said:
Sounds like even the officials are still asking this same question.

http://twitter.com/lancearmstrong
"Spending the am w/ my ol' friends from USADA. Blood and urine control. Glad they are here to welcome me home."
about 3 hours ago via ÜberTwit

Arrogant to the very end, amazing.
And before that, THIS one!

"Watched Bigger, Faster, Stronger yesterday. Highly recommend it to everyone."
about 20 hours ago via ÜberTwitter

He just can't help himself. What is he thinking?
 
Dec 7, 2010
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BotanyBay said:
You'd think that right off the bat (actual natural testosterone deficiency or not) he'd have gone for a TUE on that. Odd that he never did.

Wouldn't you want to milk the TUEs for all you can (just in case)? My guess is that the kind of testosterone one get prescribed for Juan Pelotitis is not the "good kind" a guy like Lance chooses to use anyway.
There are many types of “T” I guess your correct about the good kind. It is hard to tell without direct evidence. Where did this information come from that says he could take up to 7 times as much “T” than a normal person because of his cancer?

“Juan Pelotitis” that is good. I like “Mellow Pelota” only because I used it first. :D
 
Chronology

theswordsman said:
It's a bit off topic, but Carmichael's name was mentioned earlier, and something's been bugging me. Carmichael has always claimed to have been Lance's coach the whole time, writing about it in his own books on training like Lance, etc. But if Ferrari was also a "coach" (was he the guy waiting at the top of training climb intervals taking drops of blood to check lactate or whatever?), would the two have been used for different things or was their work done together? Is there a relationship between Carmichael and Ferrari, or was CC a public beard for part of the time?
I'm pretty sure the chronology goes something like,
-Armstrong as a junior/under 23 coached by Carmichael. I also believe this to be the same era that USAC was sued for issues surrounding the Wenzel/Carmichael minors doping program.
-Ferrari comes later. Don't know if there was coordination between the two parties. Doubtful.

The way Carmichael marketed his product, my guess is there were licensing dollars flowing back to a Pharmstrong entity based on the success of Carmichael's product.
 
Scott SoCal said:
IMO, this may have been the last time LA behaved like a normal human being. Once the decision was taken, the total focus on racing, corruption, doping and winning, he sold his soul.
I am friendly with some people from his amateur days. I got the impression there was no soul to be sold. It's who he is. Cancer just happened to him. It didn't kill him, so he goes back to being himself.
 
Dec 7, 2010
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Granville57 said:
And before that, THIS one!

"Watched Bigger, Faster, Stronger yesterday. Highly recommend it to everyone."
about 20 hours ago via ÜberTwitter

He just can't help himself. What is he thinking?
Who really knows what he is thinking. It is Christmas he has 4 kids and Federal investigation to think about. I am not even counting what skirt he is after at the moment. Or is he hooked up with “Bongo Boy” for now?
 
Oct 25, 2010
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DirtyWorks said:
I'm pretty sure the chronology goes something like,
-Armstrong as a junior/under 23 coached by Carmichael. I also believe this to be the same era that USAC was sued for issues surrounding the Wenzel/Carmichael minors doping program.
-Ferrari comes later. Don't know if there was coordination between the two parties. Doubtful.

The way Carmichael marketed his product, my guess is there were licensing dollars flowing back to a Pharmstrong entity based on the success of Carmichael's product.
The Greg Strock incident stems from Rene Wenzel working with the U.S. junior team, of which Armstrong was also a member of. Carmichael was the senior men's coach and soon began working with Armstrong.

Carmichael and Armstrong partnered on a lot of stuff, including books and CTS. Carmichael quickly settled with Strock out-of-court as his coaching biz was just starting to get big. Smart move on his part.

Personally, I wish Strock had not agreed to that with Carmichael, because it left open the possibility that he'd go on to turn other young riders onto doping.
 
while i believe armstrong was doping due to the fact he smashed all those rivals who were pumped up with jelly beans, none of these explain how he has never failed a test out of the hundreds he has taken (apart from the retested 1999 samples which prat mcquaid decided to ignore).

if he was doping with epo and blood transfusions, surely he would have been caught once
 
Oct 25, 2010
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therealtimshady said:
while i believe armstrong was doping due to the fact he smashed all those rivals who were pumped up with jelly beans, none of these explain how he has never failed a test out of the hundreds he has taken (apart from the retested 1999 samples which prat mcquaid decided to ignore).

if he was doping with epo and blood transfusions, surely he would have been caught once
 
Oct 25, 2010
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therealtimshady said:
@ botanybay

can you repost your comment please, its not coming up on my computer
A simple image of Gene Hackman (in the film "The French Connection"). Stating my belief that "Of course he never tested positive". Something bigger has been going on. We just can't see it yet.
 
cheers. i can understand why you can dope in advance as stated by landis with epo and transfusions and be clean during a race, but the out of competition tests would surely get armstrong. i think he was probably eyeballed up in his early career but when the testing became more advanced roughly around 2001/2002 he stopped but the long term effects to performance were permanent
 
Oct 25, 2010
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therealtimshady said:
cheers. i can understand why you can dope in advance as stated by landis with epo and transfusions and be clean during a race, but the out of competition tests would surely get armstrong. i think he was probably eyeballed up in his early career but when the testing became more advanced roughly around 2001/2002 he stopped but the long term effects to performance were permanent
You assume that the watchdogs have not been compromised. Have you not been reading about Mr McQuaid. and his friend, Hein Verbruggen?



 
therealtimshady said:
while i believe armstrong was doping due to the fact he smashed all those rivals who were pumped up with jelly beans, none of these explain how he has never failed a test out of the hundreds he has taken (apart from the retested 1999 samples which prat mcquaid decided to ignore).

if he was doping with epo and blood transfusions, surely he would have been caught once
First of all, let's be clear--it's false to say he's never tested positive. He has never been sanctioned for a positive test. He has had positive tests. BIG difference.

As for how he evaded most of the tests for so long, there are extensive testimonies from riders on how they beat the tests over the years (well beyond the EPO test era), and extensive evidence of collusion between USPS, Armstrong and the UCI. I won't bother trying to get into it here, but the "never failed a test" argument is complete bunk IMO.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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therealtimshady said:
while i believe armstrong was doping due to the fact he smashed all those rivals who were pumped up with jelly beans, none of these explain how he has never failed a test out of the hundreds he has taken (apart from the retested 1999 samples which prat mcquaid decided to ignore).

if he was doping with epo and blood transfusions, surely he would have been caught once
LA turned Pro in 1993, there was no test for EPO until April 2001, which is why people switched to other products including Blood transfusions which they still cannot detect.

Manzano said that USPS were getting notified of OOC tests:
The owner of this clinic, a renowned hemotologist, called Walter Viru, who is one of the doctors for Kelme to alert them the day before the uci vampires were coming to take the samples from the cyclist. And he did the same thing with Del Moral, the doctor for the U.S. Postal team and then Discovery, a good friend of his.
 
i agree that there may have been coverups. but there have been no announcements of positive tests (except the retrospective one on the 1999 samples which was quickly forgotten) and if so why no punishment particually as valverde , basso etc were punished for past crimes
 
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