What happened to ... ?

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

What happened to Papp's list-o-clients?

This really is a question that deserves an answer.

C'mon Papp have some balls and publish your client list.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re:

Ah, so Popo going from GT podium to struggling to break the top-100 is because he doesn't want to take the risk, but Cobo going from crap to GT winner and back to crap again is because he is occasionally in no mood to train and the obvious doping is glossed over.

The case of Cobo is more complex. He has a history of extremely obvious doped performances, and a history of very real psychological issues. Popo even now is much better than Cobo was in 2010. In 2009 Cobo came 10th in the Vuelta on what would seem to be a much lower octane program than whatever he was on with Saunier Duval in 2007-8. In 2011, he had a perfect storm of factors that gave him a once in a lifetime opportunity to win the Vuelta; even though he was almost as from-out-of-nowhere as Froome was in that race, he benefited from a range of outside factors (plus, let's be clear, Cobo performing as if turbo-charged was not surprising given 2007-8). It's widely agreed that he didn't fit in with Abarcá (hardly a team renowned for being super-tough on doping!) and they didn't know how to handle him, he was unhappy, unmotivated, and for their part, by halfway through the season they'd given up on him and barely bothered even entering him in races. The juice is only one part of the puzzle with Juanjo, whereas with Popo at least the first time round it seems to be the answer to the puzzle.

Popo was not an untalented cyclist either, but we can probably hypothesise that Popovych in 2008 post-Bileka's bust (he was around 40th in the Tour, it's only now that he's growing older that he's gone to total crap) is probably more representative of his real talent level than Cobo in 2010 was.

 

[classicomano]

Re: Re:

Gerdemann, Löfkvist, Velits, Goss and EBH all have something in common in their early career: HTC-Columbia. Even Cavendish isn't producing at his HTC level.

From that group I'll take Velits only.

EBH has been more about pumping hot air more than anything else. I don't remember him ever being world class. He was good stage hunter but not world class.

I'll add Andy Schleck. Probably one of the biggest ones.

Popovych. I thought everybody was saying he was the next big thing back in the days.

Popovych is a fine choice. Ernesto Colnago was hyping him as the next Merckx. He did look like a top prospect who could TT and climb, circa 2003/2004. Then he got 12th, I believe, plus a stage win as a Lance domestique in the Tour.

He was also 3rd in the 2003 Giro and wore the maglia rosa in 2004 with another top 10.

However, Popo is also one of the absolute easiest to point at what happened to him. Volodymyr Bileka was his running buddy early in his career; he was a talented junior and contemporary of Popo (a year older or so) who also turned pro with Landbouwkrediet at the same time; he rode most of the same races as Popo but never progressed beyond a dom as a pro, and moved with him to Discovery Channel in 2005, then to Lotto in 2008.

Popo's 2008 season started well, especially in Paris-Nice, but rather fell apart as the year went on. Coincidentally (or not), Bileka got busted for EPO in May. Popovych was weak for the rest of 2008, only to be a strong domestique again (albeit not at the level he was 2005-7) when reunited with Bruyneel in 2009. Popo had an injury-ridden 2010 season, then in 2011 the Landis stuff and the computer raids happened, and since then he's been a nobody.

It looks an awful lot like Popo was an obvious charger early in his career, but as a result there wasn't that much room for improvement as a pro; he was successful early on but the next step was perhaps too risky. His running buddy getting busted in 2008 scared him off the program or at least made him scale his program back, but returning to a situation he felt comfortable with (and probably had protection in given what we now know) with Bruyneel rejuvenated him to some extent. Since the Landis allegations and his computer being confiscated, however, he's probably been in the position where he's got an agreed contract but is no longer motivated to take the risk.

Dont forget this.

Popo most likely got a red alert warning letter telling him to step off and remain in the sport as a nobody domestique for the rest of his days or get his career nuked.

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

Gerdemann, Löfkvist, Velits, Goss and EBH all have something in common in their early career: HTC-Columbia. Even Cavendish isn't producing at his HTC level.

From that group I'll take Velits only.

EBH has been more about pumping hot air more than anything else. I don't remember him ever being world class. He was good stage hunter but not world class.

I'll add Andy Schleck. Probably one of the biggest ones.

Popovych. I thought everybody was saying he was the next big thing back in the days.

Popovych is a fine choice. Ernesto Colnago was hyping him as the next Merckx. He did look like a top prospect who could TT and climb, circa 2003/2004. Then he got 12th, I believe, plus a stage win as a Lance domestique in the Tour.

He was also 3rd in the 2003 Giro and wore the maglia rosa in 2004 with another top 10.

However, Popo is also one of the absolute easiest to point at what happened to him. Volodymyr Bileka was his running buddy early in his career; he was a talented junior and contemporary of Popo (a year older or so) who also turned pro with Landbouwkrediet at the same time; he rode most of the same races as Popo but never progressed beyond a dom as a pro, and moved with him to Discovery Channel in 2005, then to Lotto in 2008.

Popo's 2008 season started well, especially in Paris-Nice, but rather fell apart as the year went on. Coincidentally (or not), Bileka got busted for EPO in May. Popovych was weak for the rest of 2008, only to be a strong domestique again (albeit not at the level he was 2005-7) when reunited with Bruyneel in 2009. Popo had an injury-ridden 2010 season, then in 2011 the Landis stuff and the computer raids happened, and since then he's been a nobody.

It looks an awful lot like Popo was an obvious charger early in his career, but as a result there wasn't that much room for improvement as a pro; he was successful early on but the next step was perhaps too risky. His running buddy getting busted in 2008 scared him off the program or at least made him scale his program back, but returning to a situation he felt comfortable with (and probably had protection in given what we now know) with Bruyneel rejuvenated him to some extent. Since the Landis allegations and his computer being confiscated, however, he's probably been in the position where he's got an agreed contract but is no longer motivated to take the risk.

Makes perfect sense, Popo was awesome at the 2007 TdF and looked good early 2008 then fell off a cliff....

 

[Gung Ho Gun]

Re: Re:

Dont forget this.

Popo most likely got a red alert warning letter telling him to step off and remain in the sport as a nobody domestique for the rest of his days or get his career nuked.

That was in 2010, right? By then he'd already been a nobody domestique for more than a year so my guess would be that he became suspicious exactly by stepping off his program

The weirdest part of his story, to me, is his very good Giro in 2009, basically his only good race after Byleka

 

[doperhopper]

Re: Re:

What happened to Papp's list-o-clients?

This really is a question that deserves an answer.

C'mon Papp have some balls and publish your client list.

preferably in the form of piti-style nicknames

 

[staubsauger]

It was in 2010 in reference to the blood passport results from 2008-2010. If Popovych really stepped down from his level A program after May 2008 and rode clean until he stepped up a bit again for being Armstrong's donkey in 2009 his fluctuations must have been pretty suspicious I guess.

 

[HelmutRoole]

Ivan Stevic? Former rider with Toyota United, Andreu's old outfit if I'm not mistaken. That team was loaded (and I mean that in every sense of the word).

And Joe Papp's list of clients.

I find it massively f'ed-up that USADA has sat on a list of, what, a couple hundred buyers of EPO and HGH and have banned a handful? Isn't anyone curious? If you race bicycles in the U.S. you will regocnize some of the names on that list.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re:

I find it massively f'ed-up that USADA has sat on a list of, what, a couple hundred buyers of EPO and HGH and have banned a handful? Isn't anyone curious? If you race bicycles in the U.S. you will regocnize some of the names on that list.

This perplexes me entirely.

And further reinforces the notion that there is no such thing as anti-doping. It is all anti-doping theatre.

 

[IzzyStradlin]

Re:

Ivan Stevic? Former rider with Toyota United, Andreu's old outfit if I'm not mistaken. That team was loaded (and I mean that in every sense of the word).

Ivan's got 9 lives and is gonna use all of them
http://espoirscentral.blogspot.com/2015/09/ivan-stevic.html

 

[HelmutRoole]

Re: Re:

Ivan Stevic? Former rider with Toyota United, Andreu's old outfit if I'm not mistaken. That team was loaded (and I mean that in every sense of the word).

Ivan's got 9 lives and is gonna use all of them
http://espoirscentral.blogspot.com/2015/09/ivan-stevic.html

Great column. The kid didn't pull his punches. .

Aerospace Engineers. I totally forgot. That team dominated South Florida racing in the early 2000s. Miami, you talk about a cycling playground ripe for steroid use, there is none higher... well, maybe Trexlertown, but I digress. If you're a big guy, and you're not tied down by family or career, you owe it to yourself to get to this place. Big guys rule the roads there. You can do a six-hour ride with a three-foot elevation gain. The biggest climb is a bridge. Dieting? No need.

But, starting around November, the wind blows hard off the Atlantic. All the training you do is aimed at crossing gaps. One-minute, two-minute max efforts. Perfect for steroids and testosterone. And the riders, they never race sanctioned races. They don't need to. They train for the group rides. There are clubs formed specifically to win these massive gallops. It's Latin pride and machismo at it's finest. And these riders, they ain't slouches. If you get into a rotating paceline, you better know what the hell you're doing because everyone else will. And if you don't, you get bitched out in Spanish. Happens all the time.

It's a great place. If I still lived there I'd probably still be racing. There are rides that, in July during the Tour, draw more than 100 people on a Wednesday morning, start time 5 a.m. It's dark out! And yet, 100 take to the road, run red lights, yell at motorists, pound on car hoods and yell at each other in a furious rampage to loop around Key Biscayne and finish at the bottom of the Rickenbacker Causeway. There's actually a finish line. Gaps open. Echelons form. Crashes. Scooter escort (sometimes). Guys playing their cards deciding when to cross a gap. It's real bicycle racing. Total drama. Even at the back. Guys hanging on, fat dudes just wanting to finish with the group so they can say later all nonchalant, "I just finished with the group today."

Currently I have a Cat. 2 climb out my backdoor and a bunch of white dudes to ride with. I'm bored to tears.

 

[HelmutRoole]

Re: Re:

I find it massively f'ed-up that USADA has sat on a list of, what, a couple hundred buyers of EPO and HGH and have banned a handful? Isn't anyone curious? If you race bicycles in the U.S. you will regocnize some of the names on that list.

This perplexes me entirely.

And further reinforces the notion that there is no such thing as anti-doping. It is all anti-doping theatre.

True. They have to go after the big fish to justify funding from the US government, which comprises much more than half of their budget. In defense of Papp, part of his probation agreement was that he would cooperate with USADA and for whatever reason USADA doesn't want him releasing the list, which if F-up. Because: because Papp did everything Landis and Hamilton did to make it as a pro cyclist (trained hard, took drugs, lied about it) and yet he can't profit from it. Now, I understand he violated the laws of the land, but still, what does USADA have to gain by not letting the dog off the leash.

Also, Papp seems an okay guy, not evil. Nothing like Armstrong. But it seems there's a Stockholm Syndrome relationship with Papp and USADA at times. He seems a cheerleader for that organization and yet they've got him bent over the barrel. That said, I think it's possible he reports back to USADA when things start heating up on the forums. Kinda gives them a heads up. So, if we keep asking for the List, maybe someday they'll let Papp release it.

 

[Big Doopie]

What happened to alberto contador?

after doing a million watts on verbiers and beating doped luigi in an ITT in 2009, he got nabbed in 2010.

since then, not a single podium in the tdf. not a single stage win even.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

What happened to alberto contador?

after doing a million watts on verbiers and beating doped luigi in an ITT in 2009, he got nabbed in 2010.

since then, not a single podium in the tdf. not a single stage win even.

He won the Giro.

From a marketing POV, not tainting the top step of the most important race in the world with any doping history is an understandable decision.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Contador, after his ban, only started 3 Tours, one of which he crashed out, and the other time the won the Giro beforehand. In 2010, he also rode the Giro before competing in France. Basically he's only had once serious attempt, wich was in an off year. In 2014 crashed out, and won the Vuelta.
I don't think anything really happened to him, plus he was never someone to purely focus on the Tour.

In the marketing POV, I don't really believe.

 

[Gung Ho Gun]

What happened to alberto contador?

after doing a million watts on verbiers and beating doped luigi in an ITT in 2009, he got nabbed in 2010.

since then, not a single podium in the tdf. not a single stage win even.

Since returning from suspension he's won more GTs than anyone else. You do know there are more cycling races than the TDF, right?

 

[IzzyStradlin]

Charles Dionne?

Right up there with Horner in his NRC years, Won SFGP twice. Signed with Saunier Duval. Mucked around in the FlyV Aus program for a couple years. Disappeared without a trace. Anybody know the story?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

What happened to alberto contador?

after doing a million watts on verbiers and beating doped luigi in an ITT in 2009, he got nabbed in 2010.

since then, not a single podium in the tdf. not a single stage win even.

Since returning from suspension he's won more GTs than anyone else. You do know there are more cycling races than the TDF, right?

Big Doopie wouldn't know that, because they looked up and down the list of results and couldn't find any references to Clentadopucci.

 

[SeriousSam]

Re:

I don't think anything really happened to him, plus he was never someone to purely focus on the Tour.

He was, actually. He deviated from the Tour being his major focus only when circumstances forced him to. 2015 the exception.

2007: Tour
2008: Not invited to Tour
2009: Tour
2010: Tour
2011: Giro as well, but probably wouldn't have without the clen positive
2012: Banned for Tour.
2013: Tour
2014: Tour
2015: Double
2016: Tour

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

I don't think anything really happened to him, plus he was never someone to purely focus on the Tour.

He was, actually. He deviated from the Tour being his major focus only when circumstances forced him to. 2015 the exception.

2007: Tour
2008: Not invited to Tour
2009: Tour
2010: Tour
2011: Giro as well, but probably wouldn't have without the clen positive
2012: Banned for Tour.
2013: Tour
2014: Tour
2015: Double
2016: Tour

What's this "double" you refer to in 2015? Giro and Route de Soude

To be fair to Contador though, in 2014 it was Tour- Vuelta and in many of the other years he at least did perform in early season races, not just the TDF

 

[Big Doopie]

Big Doopie wouldn't know that, because they looked up and down the list of results and couldn't find any references to Clentadopucci.

 

[42x16ss]

Re:

Charles Dionne?

Right up there with Horner in his NRC years, Won SFGP twice. Signed with Saunier Duval. Mucked around in the FlyV Aus program for a couple years. Disappeared without a trace. Anybody know the story?

Yeah, he retired when the Pegasus deal fell through. A few good guys were left without teams after that.

 

[the delgados]

Floyd Landis?
I think he once managed to get into the break in a U.S. pro race after winning the Tour.

 

[ppanther92]

Re:

Floyd Landis?
I think he once managed to get into the break in a U.S. pro race after winning the Tour.

Not that mysterious case.

 

[HelmutRoole]

Re: Re:

What happened to Papp's list-o-clients?

Papps's list.