What if Armstrong

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Ok sure. I think you cannot use the argument of it was too long ago so we can’t re-assign a new winner, when it’s fine to delete the original winner after that time.
Your initial premise was "Would it be ‘better’ for cycling to look back and for example compare Armstrong with Pogacar a bit more ?"

Nothing is stopping you or anybody else comparing Armstrong with Pogačar. All his times and performances are still in the databases. They're still on record.

You state that you came to cycling in the middle of the Armstrong era, so you should be well aware that doping is not equal either. The whole thread comes off as whataboutism to defend the legacy of a man who, as pastronef pointed out, wouldn't have lost it if he hadn't been too egotistical to stay retired. I've treated your points in good faith so far, but it's increasingly hard not to see the thread as less a thought experiment, as it is presented, and more a disingenuous campaign to act like there's popular support for reinstating Armstrong's achievements.

Hell, if it was really about fairness, you could have come to the table demanding Ángel Arroyo be given the 1982 Vuelta back. That would be a stronger argument. And if it's about the results sheet being a mess with results showing as 'not assigned', then how about giving Raúl Alarcón his two Volta a Portugal wins back? After all, the 2018 Volta a Portugal has no fewer than FIVE places in the top 8 regarded as "not assigned" due to doping-related disqualifications, without promotion of position, the same thing you're railing against as a justification for reinstating Armstrong - and the other five riders in that top 10 have all also since been banned for doping offences. Why not go to bat for Balarcón too? After all, those races are recent enough that you could get the result resolved and here the "they were all at it" would be a more convincing argument, no?
 
The question of how Armstrong's Tour palmares would be viewed if they had not been voided is interesting. Because of Landis and the l'Equipe stories, there would have been a cloud over his wins anyway. Given his pre-1999 record, I'm sure a lot of cycling fans would find his seven wins hard to swallow, or to view them as superior to the records of Anquetil, Merckx, Hinault and Indurain. Not because of the doping - that would be hypocritical - but it's just unbelievable.

I agree with Libertine Seguros that the voiding of wins was the least worst option, and I think the UCI and Amaury were desperate to move on from Armstrong. The inconsistencies in penalties (between back dating and forward dating), whether they are based on failed tests or inferred anomalies, and how well teams/riders are lawyered up make it difficult to know what's fair. I suspect riders are mostly concerned with income and the ability to get the next contract. They need to worry about the perceptions of team managers and fellow riders, who are probably conscious that victory depends on a lot of factors (including doping). A rider is judged by potential as much as actual wins.
 
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Your initial premise was "Would it be ‘better’ for cycling to look back and for example compare Armstrong with Pogacar a bit more ?"

Nothing is stopping you or anybody else comparing Armstrong with Pogačar. All his times and performances are still in the databases. They're still on record.

You state that you came to cycling in the middle of the Armstrong era, so you should be well aware that doping is not equal either. The whole thread comes off as whataboutism to defend the legacy of a man who, as pastronef pointed out, wouldn't have lost it if he hadn't been too egotistical to stay retired. I've treated your points in good faith so far, but it's increasingly hard not to see the thread as less a thought experiment, as it is presented, and more a disingenuous campaign to act like there's popular support for reinstating Armstrong's achievements.

Hell, if it was really about fairness, you could have come to the table demanding Ángel Arroyo be given the 1982 Vuelta back. That would be a stronger argument. And if it's about the results sheet being a mess with results showing as 'not assigned', then how about giving Raúl Alarcón his two Volta a Portugal wins back? After all, the 2018 Volta a Portugal has no fewer than FIVE places in the top 8 regarded as "not assigned" due to doping-related disqualifications, without promotion of position, the same thing you're railing against as a justification for reinstating Armstrong - and the other five riders in that top 10 have all also since been banned for doping offences. Why not go to bat for Balarcón too? After all, those races are recent enough that you could get the result resolved and here the "they were all at it" would be a more convincing argument, no?
Yes that was part of the basis of the thread.
Sure I can, or you can compare them, but you must admit that overall far fewer fans debate whether Pogacar, or Merckx was better than Armstrong now than otherwise would be the case ? Hardly anyone mentions Armstrong.
On this site it’s not even really possible unless it’s in the clinic.
I don’t know much the tour of Portugal other than it’s supposedly more doped than even the tour.

To me 2012 was too late to be disqualifying anybody from the 2005, or 1999 tour. But yes , why not retroactively ban Anquetil and I will bite and say yes I do think it was somewhat unfair and hypocritical on Armstrong when other winners have admitted to doping and not been disqualified. That he made a comeback shouldn’t really change that.
 
The question of how Armstrong's Tour palmares would be viewed if they had not been voided is interesting. Because of Landis and the l'Equipe stories, there would have been a cloud over his wins anyway. Given his pre-1999 record, I'm sure a lot of cycling fans would find his seven wins hard to swallow, or to view them as superior to the records of Anquetil, Merckx, Hinault and Indurain. Not because of the doping - that would be hypocritical - but it's just unbelievable.

I agree with Libertine Seguros that the voiding of wins was the least worst option, and I think the UCI and Amaury were desperate to move on from Armstrong. The inconsistencies in penalties (between back dating and forward dating), whether they are based on failed tests or inferred anomalies, and how well teams/riders are lawyered up make it difficult to know what's fair. I suspect riders are mostly concerned with income and the ability to get the next contract. They need to worry about the perceptions of team managers and fellow riders, who are probably conscious that victory depends on a lot of factors (including doping). A rider is judged by potential as much as actual wins.
The inconsistency in penalties for doping is a big problem, I suppose we can say none of it is really fair as such.

I do think Armstrong showed promise before his cancer, actually I think cycling fans are very harsh here on Armstrong.
He won the world championship and tour stages at 21.
Podiums in Paris Nice, Liege, San Sebastián, another tour stage, winning flèche, top 4 in suisse.
People say he never showed talent as a stage racer which is nonsense, he was already well on the way to winning the tour imo.
 
Yes that was part of the basis of the thread.
Sure I can, or you can compare them, but you must admit that overall far fewer fans debate whether Pogacar, or Merckx was better than Armstrong now than otherwise would be the case ? Hardly anyone mentions Armstrong.
On this site it’s not even really possible unless it’s in the clinic.
I don’t know much the tour of Portugal other than it’s supposedly more doped than even the tour.

To me 2012 was too late to be disqualifying anybody from the 2005, or 1999 tour. But yes , why not retroactively ban Anquetil and I will bite and say yes I do think it was somewhat unfair and hypocritical on Armstrong when other winners have admitted to doping and not been disqualified. That he made a comeback shouldn’t really change that.
I don't think they would compare Armstrong to Pogačar or Merckx all that much anyway to be honest, and that's a product of the calendar he raced. People don't really discuss whether Indurain is better than Merckx or Pogačar either, because his focus was in a specific area of cycling rather than all across the calendar. Armstrong displayed great quality as a one day racer in his pre-cancer career, but post-cancer he rode a heavily reduced calendar, focused specifically on the Tour and the Tour only, and so his palmarès through his heyday features very little outside of the Tour to make him comparable to an Hinault or a Merckx. No matter what may have been peddled by his own personal myth-making and the friendly media, he was never realistically in the discussion with Merckx or even Hinault even at the time.

Don't forget that since US Postal was sponsoring the team for much of his journey, there was an element of taxpayers' money being used to fund Armstrong buying PEDs, and that he defrauded charity and used cancer as a shield to buy himself immunity. That kind of stuff makes it a lot harder to just forgive and forget and let bygones be bygones in Lance's case. He's on the scrapheap of history, his achievements have been reduced to worthlessness, and he's now up on the Mount Rushmore of biggest cheats in history. And that's where he belongs and where he should stay.

And sure, you can argue that it's not fair that he gets a rawer deal for being an *** that cheated than for just cheating, but the thing is, he could have just, you know, not been an ***. But if he wasn't an ***, he probably doesn't get those achievements in the first place. However, if he wasn't an ***, he wouldn't have ruined it all by coming back a second time to to sate his inflated ego, and he wouldn't have had those achievements taken away.
 
I don't think they would compare Armstrong to Pogačar or Merckx all that much anyway to be honest, and that's a product of the calendar he raced. People don't really discuss whether Indurain is better than Merckx or Pogačar either, because his focus was in a specific area of cycling rather than all across the calendar. Armstrong displayed great quality as a one day racer in his pre-cancer career, but post-cancer he rode a heavily reduced calendar, focused specifically on the Tour and the Tour only, and so his palmarès through his heyday features very little outside of the Tour to make him comparable to an Hinault or a Merckx. No matter what may have been peddled by his own personal myth-making and the friendly media, he was never realistically in the discussion with Merckx or even Hinault even at the time.

Don't forget that since US Postal was sponsoring the team for much of his journey, there was an element of taxpayers' money being used to fund Armstrong buying PEDs, and that he defrauded charity and used cancer as a shield to buy himself immunity. That kind of stuff makes it a lot harder to just forgive and forget and let bygones be bygones in Lance's case. He's on the scrapheap of history, his achievements have been reduced to worthlessness, and he's now up on the Mount Rushmore of biggest cheats in history. And that's where he belongs and where he should stay.

And sure, you can argue that it's not fair that he gets a rawer deal for being an *** that cheated than for just cheating, but the thing is, he could have just, you know, not been an ***. But if he wasn't an ***, he probably doesn't get those achievements in the first place. However, if he wasn't an ***, he wouldn't have ruined it all by coming back a second time to to sate his inflated ego, and he wouldn't have had those achievements taken away.
He certainly had potential of being both a great stage race rider and one day rider, in that sense he could have been compared, but yes of course he focused on the tour.

I think he was a victim of his own success to be honest, if he’d only won a few tours, or had Ullrich winning one or two in the middle, there wouldn’t be nearly as many fingers pointed at him, and he perhaps wouldn’t have been such an ass, then there wouldn’t be so many doubters, and he wouldn’t be such an ass…etc

Honestly I think if Pogacar had won the last 6 tours there would be just as much ped talk about him as Armstrong, and even winning 4 tours he’s reduced to wearing a silly don’t take pictures of me jersey.
Anyway I guess you are right that most have forgotten about Lance
 
He certainly had potential of being both a great stage race rider and one day rider, in that sense he could have been compared, but yes of course he focused on the tour.

I think he was a victim of his own success to be honest, if he’d only won a few tours, or had Ullrich winning one or two in the middle, there wouldn’t be nearly as many fingers pointed at him, and he perhaps wouldn’t have been such an ass, then there wouldn’t be so many doubters, and he wouldn’t be such an ass…etc

Honestly I think if Pogacar had won the last 6 tours there would be just as much ped talk about him as Armstrong, and even winning 4 tours he’s reduced to wearing a silly don’t take pictures of me jersey.
Anyway I guess you are right that most have forgotten about Lance
It's not that people have forgotten about Lance. It's that Lance's achievements have been thoroughly discredited and nobody will ever take him seriously in the pantheon of the greats again.

Just like, if you look through the history of the fastest ever times run in the men's 100m, you will find a list of dopers like Yohan Blake, Asafa Powell, Justin Gatlin, Nesta Carter and Steve Mullings (just two months before copping a life ban in fact) plus Christian Coleman and Fred Kerley who have both got suspensions for whereabouts violations. But you won't find Ben Johnson's 9,79.
 
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Apologies, but this just seems like a really naïve take. If they take away the results of riders who voluntarily admit, it takes away any incentive toward honesty. And again - at the time we had a few dopers whose confessions and cooperation had been very helpful towards combating doping. Admittedly, these were largely riders who had either called time on their careers or who had been ostracised, but nevertheless, surely it is plain to see why the sport may want to show a greater degree of leniency than towards the guy who had destroyed peoples' lives, smeared people's names, ruined peoples' careers and bullied others into silence to protect his own doping. If they give Armstrong a sweetheart deal and let him keep all his titles, he gets no punishment, then they incentivise that behaviour.

Your comments on not being familiar with the doping or alleged doping of a number of the riders I brought up from the immediate post-Armstrong era suggests that you may have come to the sport later than that era - and that's no problem at all, but the outcome you have outlined, of essentially protecting Armstrong's results in the name of being able to compare potential future feats, would simply not have been possible with the Reasoned Decision coming in the environment of 2012, and if I'm right and you've come to the sport later than that, then you may simply not understand the anti-doping environment as it was back then.

Today, it's been a long time since we had a huge blow-the-lid-off scandal, but back then there were plenty. Enough that, for example, German TV had basically thrown the Tour off major stations due to continual scandals, and wildcard teams could put together a pretty strong roster built largely out of riders competing under the informal "quarantine" of two years where a returning doper would not be signed by any ProTour (WT precursor) teams. There was a very conscious attempt to clean the sport up in the post-Armstrong era in order to restore its reputation, with a number of major operations affecting numerous teams and riders, and his return was a significant factor in that progress stalling, and this was very fresh in the memories of many at the time. There wasn't a "no news is good news" environment at the time, the sport was having to catch the most egregious cheats like Riccò and Schumacher because they weren't subtle enough and with the constant scandals rocking the sport, superhuman feats were not greeted with awe and admiration but with scepticism and derision. Armstrong's actions had done such damage for so long that they absolutely had to set an example of him.
Man, memories of il Cobra...
 
The question of how Armstrong's Tour palmares would be viewed if they had not been voided is interesting. Because of Landis and the l'Equipe stories, there would have been a cloud over his wins anyway. Given his pre-1999 record, I'm sure a lot of cycling fans would find his seven wins hard to swallow, or to view them as superior to the records of Anquetil, Merckx, Hinault and Indurain. Not because of the doping - that would be hypocritical - but it's just unbelievable.

I agree with Libertine Seguros that the voiding of wins was the least worst option, and I think the UCI and Amaury were desperate to move on from Armstrong. The inconsistencies in penalties (between back dating and forward dating), whether they are based on failed tests or inferred anomalies, and how well teams/riders are lawyered up make it difficult to know what's fair. I suspect riders are mostly concerned with income and the ability to get the next contract. They need to worry about the perceptions of team managers and fellow riders, who are probably conscious that victory depends on a lot of factors (including doping). A rider is judged by potential as much as actual wins.
I was at the Leadville Trail 100, this year went by Floyds of Leadville, got a t-shirt and he signed it.

Nothing will ever take away the elation I felt when I woke up that day and read the letter he sent the UCI. He ripped the band aid off, and it was so fun to watch the aftermath. Floyd will always have a place in my heart.
 
Yes that was part of the basis of the thread.
Sure I can, or you can compare them, but you must admit that overall far fewer fans debate whether Pogacar, or Merckx was better than Armstrong now than otherwise would be the case ? Hardly anyone mentions Armstrong.
On this site it’s not even really possible unless it’s in the clinic.
I don’t know much the tour of Portugal other than it’s supposedly more doped than even the tour.

To me 2012 was too late to be disqualifying anybody from the 2005, or 1999 tour. But yes , why not retroactively ban Anquetil and I will bite and say yes I do think it was somewhat unfair and hypocritical on Armstrong when other winners have admitted to doping and not been disqualified. That he made a comeback shouldn’t really change that.
Armstrong would be bringing bottles ice packs to Pogacar. Armstrong only wishes he had the w/kg Teddy possesses.
 
Don't forget that since US Postal was sponsoring the team for much of his journey, there was an element of taxpayers' money being used to fund Armstrong buying PEDs, and that he defrauded charity and used cancer as a shield to buy himself immunity. That kind of stuff makes it a lot harder to just forgive and forget and let bygones be bygones in Lance's case. He's on the scrapheap of history, his achievements have been reduced to worthlessness, and he's now up on the Mount Rushmore of biggest cheats in history. And that's where he belongs and where he should stay.
All of this.
 
everbody from that era knows those tours are armstrongs.there was no unfair advantage,thats nonsense and toady we know,that guys like pantani,indurain and ullrich were even more doped during their wins.there was no super talents pantani and ullrich and great responder lance,tahts nonsense.all results from 91-96 are utter joke.
Lance get off the forum, you've been warned before!
 
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