What is the end game??

[ChrisE]

You know better than to bandy this bull**** about.

What if he's a hyper-responder to the treatments Ferrari prescribed? No matter how you try to justify it, he cheated, regardless the size of your man-crush.

Yeah, he pedaled hard just like the rest of them, and spent his time on the bike. The flip side of the same coin is that others with just as much talent and training prowess may have lost out because of Armstrong's natural ability to respond to PEDs.

So, no, it's not fair. And yes, I know life isn't fair, but cyclists know the rules when they hit the start line. Cheating is cheating, and you're still a chump for bowing at the feet of this selfish tw@t.

I was responding to a question about his work ethic. Just because he took PED's doesn't mean he didn't bust it to excel. Yes, he cheated....there is no debate in my mind about that but that was not the subject I was responding to.

BTW, I reported your response to the mods. Please refrain from name-calling. Thanks.

 

[buckwheat]

I was responding to a question about his work ethic. Just because he took PED's doesn't mean he didn't bust it to excel. Yes, he cheated....there is no debate in my mind about that but that was not the subject I was responding to.

BTW, I reported your response to the mods. Please refrain from name-calling. Thanks.

His work ethic?

When you're as jacked as he is, it's hard to sit still. This is very convenient when you're paid to be on the hamster wheel.

 

[Digger]

I was responding to a question about his work ethic. Just because he took PED's doesn't mean he didn't bust it to excel. Yes, he cheated....there is no debate in my mind about that but that was not the subject I was responding to.

BTW, I reported your response to the mods. Please refrain from name-calling. Thanks.

He called you a chump and you reported him. LOL

 

[BroDeal]

And just when it looked like you were going soft and easing up on the condescending jerk attitude on posters with less than 10,000,000 posts you go and live down to your reputation.

You are doing pretty good yourself with only 25 posts.

 

[ChrisE]

He called you a chump and you reported him. LOL

I don't see the humor. This forum should be used as a marketplace to exchange ideas and opinions.

Let's keep the discussion on a respectful plane. Thanks.

 

[ChrisE]

His work ethic?

When you're as jacked as he is, it's hard to sit still. This is very convenient when you're paid to be on the hamster wheel.

Can you please provide a link or some proof that he was "jacked up" more than others in the peloton at that time? Define "jacked up" as well; I'm not sure of the context here.

I assume there has been a study done to prove blood doping and/or EPO use makes people hyperactive? If so, please provide a link to that as well, as well as a study between the effects on LA vs other users in the peloton. Thanks.

 

[Digger]

I don't see the humor. This forum should be used as a marketplace to exchange ideas and opinions.

Let's keep the discussion on a respectful plane. Thanks.

Ok fair enough.

 

[tifosa]

A level playing field. That's it. That is all I want.

For clarification, do you want everyone using PEDs or no one using PEDs?

For me, there is sufficient difference in innate ability across the board to never have a truly level playing field. That said, I prefer that professional cyclists ride on their innate physical abilities and skill. That is the essence of sport and the only "fair" element to competition.

PEDs have no place in sport.

 

[ChrisE]

Ok fair enough.

Good. You have no idea how difficult it was for me to write that.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Can you please provide a link or some proof that he was "jacked up" more than others in the peloton at that time? Define "jacked up" as well; I'm not sure of the context here.

I assume there has been a study done to prove blood doping and/or EPO use makes people hyperactive? If so, please provide a link to that as well, as well as a study between the effects on LA vs other users in the peloton. Thanks.

I believe 'Jacked up' could be a reference to consumption or EPO - a banned product.

In 1999 - of the 87 usable samples from that years Tour de France- 13 were positive for EPO.

Of that 13 - the following 6 vials were all from one rider:
160297
157372
185557
185479
185475
186397
The name of the rider in question is a Mr. Lance Armstrong - an American rider.

You're welcome.

 

[The Hitch]

I believe 'Jacked up' could be a reference to consumption or EPO - a banned product.

In 1999 - of the 87 usable samples from that years Tour de France- 13 were positive for EPO.

Of that 13 - the following 6 vials were all from one rider:
160297
157372
185557
185479
185475
186397
The name of the rider in question is a Mr. Lance Armstrong - an American rider.

You're welcome.

You actually have the numbers? wow.

 

[shawnrohrbach]

End game - it makes me puke, but he will still have the fans who are either stupid, naive, or in denial. Lance denies - the fans say it was a witch hunt. Lance admits - people say it was a level playing field. I will admit that I am struggling to fathom his fans though - they blamed the French for being jealous, then it was the Europeans, then journalists out to make money, blamed the lab for spiking the samples, blamed L'Equipe for spiking the samples, Greg is bitter, Betsy hates Lance, Frankie backing her up, Emma is a sl** and was kicked off the team, Simeoni has no credibility, never tested positive (except for the spiked samples), Ferrari was testing fat percentages, Floys is deranged, the American investigators are trying to make a name for themselves, a witch hunt (thus negating the line about American justice being better than European or French law)......It's unbelievable stuff. And as Race Radio points out so often and so well, we are the ones called the conspiracy theorists.

Good summary. As for an end game, I am not sure there is one yet. The first step is to analyze the facts as well as they can be known. If there is deemed to be criminal activity, and the potential of that seems very good, then an obvious end game is to decide if there is enough and if the gain from the criminal activity was enough to warrant prosecution. As for getting a whole lot of feel good from watching professional cycling, I feel the same way now as I feel about basketball (refs admitting to cheating for financial gain) and base ball (word Bonds) and even the most fixed sport (if you can call it that) ever, horse racing. Yes, I have completely lost interest in professional bike racing. I usually get that way I think I have been lied to. During the Tour this year, I just got on the bike and rode and didn't watch more than an hour of the whole damn thing. My end game is usually to not let a$$holes lie to me a second time.

 

[The Hitch]

End game - it makes me puke, but he will still have the fans who are either stupid, naive, or in denial. Lance denies - the fans say it was a witch hunt. Lance admits - people say it was a level playing field. I will admit that I am struggling to fathom his fans though - they blamed the French for being jealous, then it was the Europeans, then journalists out to make money, blamed the lab for spiking the samples, blamed L'Equipe for spiking the samples, Greg is bitter, Betsy hates Lance, Frankie backing her up, Emma is a sl** and was kicked off the team, Simeoni has no credibility, never tested positive (except for the spiked samples), Ferrari was testing fat percentages, Floys is deranged, the American investigators are trying to make a name for themselves, a witch hunt (thus negating the line about American justice being better than European or French law)......It's unbelievable stuff. And as Race Radio points out so often and so well, we are the ones called the conspiracy theorists.

I think there are few people who believe all that, past a few trolls on the internet who go to these lenghts to defend him. For the most part the general lance defender will know little about cycling and just doesnt understand how serious doping in the sport is. They might dismiss the investigations as a witch hunt, but will probably know little or nothing about, simeoni, ferrari, the positive tests etc.

 

[ChrisE]

I believe 'Jacked up' could be a reference to consumption or EPO - a banned product.

In 1999 - of the 87 usable samples from that years Tour de France- 13 were positive for EPO.

Of that 13 - the following 6 vials were all from one rider:
160297
157372
185557
185479
185475
186397
The name of the rider in question is a Mr. Lance Armstrong - an American rider.

You're welcome.

I'm sorry. You seem to have misread my post directed at buckwheat and then you went off on a tangent. Let's review the subject I was commenting on, shall we?

Buckwheat was saying LA couldn't sit still because he was "jacked up" in reference to his work ethic. I asked for some proof that blood doping and EPO make people hyperactive, so much so that they don't need to have a work ethic. He was implying that LA was so "jacked up" he could sit on the couch and get the equivalent workout as riding up the Tourmalet 20 times.

Of course I am doing this tongue in cheek because I like to point out when people are just spewing BS. It makes me feel big.

For some reason you reply about the 99 samples.

Maybe you should just stop jumping into my posts when I am replying to other posters. That would probably help alot. You've got your hands full with cobblestoned right now anyway so no reason to open up multiple fronts. Thanks.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I'm sorry. You seem to have misread my post directed at buckwheat and then you went off on a tangent. Let's review the subject I was commenting on, shall we?

Buckwheat was saying LA couldn't sit still because he was "jacked up" in reference to his work ethic. I asked for some proof that blood doping and EPO make people hyperactive, so much so that they don't need to have a work ethic. He was implying that LA was so "jacked up" he could sit on the couch and get the equivalent workout as riding up the Tourmalet 20 times.

For some reason you reply about the 99 samples.

Maybe you should just stop jumping into my posts when I am replying to other posters. That would probably help alot. You've got your hands full with cobblestoned right now anyway so no reason to open up multiple fronts. Thanks.

I'm sorry. You seem to have misread my post directed at you in your question to buckwheat where you asked the question:

Can you please provide a link or some proof that he was "jacked up" more than others in the peloton at that time? Define "jacked up" as well; I'm not sure of the context here.

I did not realize that you did not want someone to answer your question, or that others could not answer a question you posted.

'Cobblestoned'? Nah, its simple really - it never takes long before they cry persecution or resort to 'ad hominem', probably the next step is to open a separate account and start posting on that one.

Again, no need to thank me, you are very very welcome.

 

[ChrisE]

I'm sorry. You seem to have misread my post directed at you in your question to buckwheat where you asked the question:


I did not realize that you did not want someone to answer your question, or that others could not answer a question you posted.

'Cobblestoned'? Nah, its simple really - it never takes long before they cry persecution or resort to 'ad hominem', probably the next step is to open a separate account and start posting on that one.

Again, no need to thank me, you are very very welcome.

Ahh, I see where I confused you. Stupid me. I must also remember there is a large audience here that is waiting to pounce on little old ChrisE, and all bases must be covered. I welcome cobblestoned to the forum as a brother in arms, a quality poster to help with the reality based community here.

Buckwheat say "jacked" LA.

Word.

Sorry, I went off on a tangent there. You know how that is.

Anyway so, LA was "jacked" more than others because 6 of the 87 samples were his and were positive for EPO. I'm trying to work that into how this effects his work ethic but let's leave that for awhile.....

I am sure LA got tested way more than anybody else that year. I am sure the EPO test is not infallable since so many people pass it without AAF. Surely you are not saying that LA was the only one on EPO in the 99 TdF??? Is that what you are saying doc? Buckwheat's scattershot did not include the year but let's play the 99 year just for the sake of argument.

How many times did Zulle get tested that year? Escartin? Virenque? Where is the "proof" that LA was more "jacked" than these riders that probably only got tested a few times? There are still 7 positives. Let's confirm, yep 13-6 = 7. Scoreboard!

Did Zulle win a stage and thus get a mandatory test? Ooops! So many variables doc, and since you know I am a technical kind of guy I am having a hard time putting faith into your line of reasoning. The engineer vs the doctor, what a battle of the minds. 2 + 2 must equal 4 in my world doctor fyi. Faith based stuff does not keep chemical plants from blowing up. This reality stuff is just something that is drilled into me, doc. Sorry that makes for frustrating forum fodder.

So tsssk, tsssk, my dear doctor. I want to believe you but it just seems like a stretch to believe such nonsense about LA being more "jacked" than anybody else at any time. I want to believe!

Even 1999 which is the year the Great PED Pumpkin descended upon the peloton and defacated EPO positives that would cause LA to be confined to Flying Spaghetti Monster WADA hell with stale beer and diseased masseuses. I want to believe....I will break out my red slippers and knock them together later tonight. Please make me believe LA is the great "jacked" satan that wreaked havoc over the "unjacked" victims in the peloton!

Whew. Now, back to the real subject I am asking about from my friend buckwheat. Bad doc maseratti throwing me into this tangent and now I need to take a shower. Bad doctor!

Do you have some links showing hyperactivity induced GT form training methods that buckwheat is referring to? Thanks.

And, you're welcome.

 

[Cobblestoned]

I'm sorry. You seem to have misread my post directed at you in your question to buckwheat where you asked the question:


I did not realize that you did not want someone to answer your question, or that others could not answer a question you posted.

'Cobblestoned'? Nah, its simple really - it never takes long before they cry persecution or resort to 'ad hominem', probably the next step is to open a separate account and start posting on that one.

Again, no need to thank me, you are very very welcome.

I am not like that BPC guy. Sorry that I have to complain and repeat again.

No double accounts, no fraud, lost fight will stay a lost fight and banned will be banned. Very honest guy. Believe me that.
Too honest in some peoples imagination.

But i don´t have any links or sources for that. Typical.

 

[ChrisE]

I am not like that BPC guy. Sorry that I have to complain and repeat again.

No double accounts, no fraud, lost fight will stay a lost fight and banned will be banned. Very honest guy. Believe me that.
Too honest in some peoples imagination.

But i don´t have any links or sources for that. Typical.

Cobblestoned!!! Welcome to the thread!

FYI a few days ago I called you cobblestones.

That was a big mistake because cobblestones is not sympathetic to my line of reasoning.

I suggest you bug out of here now. You and I in here would be like in Predator when Arnold and his 7 buddies killed all of those other dudes with no casualties. Or, any random Bruce Lee movie x2.

I got this one covered, you take care of the other threads. Peace.

 

[Cobblestoned]

Cobblestoned!!! Welcome to the thread!

FYI a few days ago I called you cobblestones.

That was a big mistake because cobblestones is not sympathetic to my line of reasoning.

I suggest you bug out of here now. You and I in here would be like in Predator when Arnold and his 7 buddies killed all of those other dudes with no casualties. Or, any random Bruce Lee movie x2.

I got this one covered, you take care of the other threads. Peace.

You are welcome, too.
I agree. A perfect planning is essential and half the rent for technicians like us.
That nickname similarity is really a accident. I would have never chosen that one, if had noticed that "cobblestones" guy early enough. Bad planning.

I have to go to bed now. Perhaps tomorrow we will discoverychannel some answers about some jacked and hyperactive people - here and there.

 

[ChrisE]

You are welcome, too.
I agree. A perfect planning is essential and half the rent for technicians like us.
That nickname similarity is really a accident. I would have never chosen that one, if had noticed that "cobblestones" guy early enough. Bad planning.

I have to go to bed now. Perhaps tomorrow we will discoverychannel some answers about some jacked and hyperactive people - here and there.

OK cool. In the future (on another forum of course) you should pick your username more carefully. I chose ChrisE because it is my name and last initial plus it gives people something to make fun of. ChrisssYY, get it?

It's perfect for diversionary ad hominems which keeps me on my toes. If you don't use something for awhile (ie your brain) then it gets out of shape. Thus, I like the ad hominems because if makes me think of a comeback to put things back into perspective.

Of course, if there was some type of forum PED where you could not invite insult and stay sharp, ie "jacked" up, then that would be cool. Maybe buckwheat has some insight, or doc M can talk about toe jam or something irrelevant.

Hey, look over there! A white woman just got abducted lol.

We should PM and plot strategy. Catch you later.

 

[MacRoadie]

We should PM and plot strategy. Catch you later.

Maybe you girls can, like, build a secret clubhouse and have, like, a secret password and handshake! That way you can, like, keep all the cool girls out like, the cheerleaders and, like, the prom court.

Then later, you can, like, hang out at the mall and get something to eat, but not at Hotdog On A Stick, cause that b!tch Melanie works there and told them not to hire you cause you're not a cheerleader. And besides, like, the outfits they wear look so stupid, so, like, who wants to work there anyway...

It's gonna be so super cool hanging out together! You guys are gonna be BFF's!

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Ahh, I see where I confused you. Stupid me. I must also remember there is a large audience here that is waiting to pounce on little old ChrisE, and all bases must be covered. I welcome cobblestoned to the forum as a brother in arms, a quality poster to help with the reality based community here.

Buckwheat say "jacked" LA.

Word.

Sorry, I went off on a tangent there. You know how that is.

Anyway so, LA was "jacked" more than others because 6 of the 87 samples were his and were positive for EPO. I'm trying to work that into how this effects his work ethic but let's leave that for awhile.....

I am sure LA got tested way more than anybody else that year. I am sure the EPO test is not infallable since so many people pass it without AAF. Surely you are not saying that LA was the only one on EPO in the 99 TdF??? Is that what you are saying doc? Buckwheat's scattershot did not include the year but let's play the 99 year just for the sake of argument.

How many times did Zulle get tested that year? Escartin? Virenque? Where is the "proof" that LA was more "jacked" than these riders that probably only got tested a few times? There are still 7 positives. Let's confirm, yep 13-6 = 7. Scoreboard!

Did Zulle win a stage and thus get a mandatory test? Ooops! So many variables doc, and since you know I am a technical kind of guy I am having a hard time putting faith into your line of reasoning. The engineer vs the doctor, what a battle of the minds. 2 + 2 must equal 4 in my world doctor fyi. Faith based stuff does not keep chemical plants from blowing up. This reality stuff is just something that is drilled into me, doc. Sorry that makes for frustrating forum fodder.

So tsssk, tsssk, my dear doctor. I want to believe you but it just seems like a stretch to believe such nonsense about LA being more "jacked" than anybody else at any time. I want to believe!

Even 1999 which is the year the Great PED Pumpkin descended upon the peloton and defacated EPO positives that would cause LA to be confined to Flying Spaghetti Monster WADA hell with stale beer and diseased masseuses. I want to believe....I will break out my red slippers and knock them together later tonight. Please make me believe LA is the great "jacked" satan that wreaked havoc over the "unjacked" victims in the peloton!

Whew. Now, back to the real subject I am asking about from my friend buckwheat. Bad doc maseratti throwing me into this tangent and now I need to take a shower. Bad doctor!

Do you have some links showing hyperactivity induced GT form training methods that buckwheat is referring to? Thanks.

And, you're welcome.

Hmm, you asked a question - I answered it - now you claim that "a large audience" is ready to "pounce on you".
I can see why you have found a kindred spirit in 'Cobblestoned" who does the same when their point is questioned and they cannot backup what they say.

Your 'engineering mind' appears to have missed the fact that 13 of the 87 samples were positive for EPO, of that 13 - 6 belonged to Armstrong.

It does not suprise me that my answer (based on available data) is dismissed in preference on to a point I did not make.

I hope you enjoyed your shower - and it took less than 20 minutes.

 

[Neworld]

Clearly the most important end result of this particular LA/JB investigation is to find the truth; what a concept. And to think we actually have to discuss the relevance of discovering the truth and what it means to the future of cycling.

For me seeing LA behind bars, lose his hollow victories and/or lose millions would be appropriate but not a necessity. I would like to see him, and all of his accomplices, driven as far away from cycling as possible. Certainly away from coaching, development teams and aspiring cyclists. Clarification of his relationship with the UCI, the transfer of monies to the UCI... would elucidate how the 'conspiracy theories' are more factual than falsely inventive. This clarification would also show how pathological LA is/may be and further degrade any residual integrity he has as a Anticancer philanthropist and human being.

Lastly, why is it so atypical or unusual to attempt to attack LA et al. with equivalent aggressive techniques? Was is not LA who sued each and everyone who attempts to expose him(except for now)? Was it not LA who tracked down Simeioni on TV? Was it not LA who stated disparaging remarks against reporters, LeMond..., well just about everyone who stands in his way? Some believe in 'an eye for an eye'...and they may be trying to tackle someone who requires a commensurate level of tenacity.

NW

 

[dbrower]

Ted Kennedy killed a woman for christ sake, that didnt stop him from almost becoming president .

Ted Kennedy NEVER almost became president. Otherwise, you are close.

-dB

 

[Oldman]

Good. You have no idea how difficult it was for me to write that.

...and he bought it. It is a new era for forum understanding.