What makes a legend !

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Arredondo said:
Mr.White said:
Ruby United said:
Cav is arguably the most successful pure sprinter in history; how is Valverde more of a legend than him??

No he is not. Cippolini is better, Freddy Maertens is better, Andre Darrigade have similar palmares, might be better, Miguel Poblet is close, Rik Van Steenbergen is certainly better, etc.

As for Valverde, he is light years ahead of Cavendish. In his 12 professional seasons he was World Tour leading rider (and that means one of the very best in the sport) in 2006,2008 and 2014 and he will likely finish in that same place this year also. He was 2nd in 2009, 3rd in 2013, 4th in 2007, 5th in 2004 and 2012, and 7th in 2003. So he was top 5 nine times! Top 10 ten times out of twelve. He only missed twice, in his first pro season and in 2005 when he was badly injured. Only persons who tops this performance are Eddy Merckx and Sean Kelly and maybe Bernard Hinault. Only three riders in the current peloton are in the same league with Valverde, and neither of them is Mark Cavendish!

But Jacques Anquetil, Felice Gimondi, Miguel Indurain, Louison Bobet have a better palmares then Valverde. And probably more riders.

But as I stated 4 or so posts ago, the record is not everything. One of my examples, Eugene Christophe, wouldn't be a legend if all that matters are wins. And he's a legend, a symbol of his era more so than most, if not all riders of his time.
 
Aug 16, 2013
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One of? I would be curious to hear who is better than Valv of this generation. I can think of one, maybe 2 who stands a chance :p

That said, I think Contador is/will be considered a legend, while Valv dont and I dont really got a problem with that. Contador is something special, but isnt a better bike rider than Valv.

Surely not, but it's all about what you do with your talent. Contador resembles cycling at his purest form: attack and never give up. If you watch Contador, you're back in the 50's, 60's and 70's. You see Merckx, Bahamontes, Fuente and all the others who made cycling history. That makes someone a cycling legend imo.

And best of a generation is difficult to conclude. Because Contador and Valverde are such different cyclists.
 
Aug 11, 2012
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Legendary status is always difficult when the guy is still active (Valverde/Cavendish).

Valverde is a beast, nothing but respect.

Cavendish has won many stages in the Tour de France but I can think of better sprinters, like someone already posted. I also think Cavendish didnt have much competition during his era compared to Cippolini, Maertens etc.
 
Re: Re:

Arredondo said:
One of? I would be curious to hear who is better than Valv of this generation. I can think of one, maybe 2 who stands a chance :p

That said, I think Contador is/will be considered a legend, while Valv dont and I dont really got a problem with that. Contador is something special, but isnt a better bike rider than Valv.

Surely not, but it's all about what you do with your talent. Contador resembles cycling at his purest form: attack and never give up. If you watch Contador, you're back in the 50's, 60's and 70's. You see Merckx, Bahamontes, Fuente and all the others who made cycling history. That makes someone a cycling legend imo.

And best of a generation is difficult to conclude. Because Contador and Valverde are such different cyclists.
Valverde is certainly more versatile than Contador and was probably the best one day racer in the world pre ban, but Contador has stood on the top step of each GT podium 3 times. Only him and Hinault have won every GT more than once.

Then think back to the rides he's done over the years - the duel with Rasmussen in '07, Angliru in '08, Verbier in '09, Port de Bales in 2010, the 2011 Giro, Fuente de in 2012 and the Mortirolo this year. Most riders would be happy to have any one of those rides during their career, let alone all of those.
 
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DFA123 said:
And how many Grand Tours have Cancellara and Tony Martin got close to winning?

It's not just the specialization though; the domestiques are so much stronger now, because the level of professionalism in cycling goes much deeper. You can't win races in the same way now as previous generations could. Nowadays it is easier for a weaker rider to win a race because they are kept together for longer, but it is much harder for a stronger rider to dominate - to the extent where it is impossible to sucessfully specialize across all different disciplines.

edit... by the way, I meant to add that I enjoyed reading your post, some really good analysis and interesting details.

(thanks for the compliment in your edit ;))

Okay, so since when are GT's alone the benchmark in cycling?
Cancellara and Martin have been the best time-trialists of the past ten years, so they are the best riders of their generation, period. They have the biggest engine. ITT's are the ultimate test in cycling. You cannot cheat in ITT's, you can't draft wheels. Look at all the all-time great champions of this sport, what do they all have in common? ITT skills. Whether they be stage race specialists or classic specialists. And the better they are in ITT's the better riders they are. That's why I should rate Gimondi or Moser above De Vlaeminck, talent wise, even though De Vlaeminck could race against the clock too but he was no Gimondi.

I've already said why current GT's are charades. Ridiculously short on time trials, ridiculously high amount of MTF's with sometimes very steep gradient. Everything is made to favour featherweight climbers and to exclude the heavier complete riders. You can't win a GT if you are 70+kg nowadays. Neither can you win Liège-Bastogne or Amstel Gold because it's all about explosiveness in the final climbs and no longer about stamina. Cancellara is 81kg in his form weight. Obviously he can't win any of those races in their present-day routes. Even in their old route it would be hard. Merckx was 72kg in top form, so it's also obvious that he climbed better than Cancellara. So he was better than the best currently active rider, QED.

There are many reasons for the levelling of the peloton today. Main reason as I said, can't be discussed on this section. Then you have lighter & more efficient bikes, better asphalt, better kits, shorter races altogether, better pays, shorter race distances in semi-classics, etc. It's easier to race today than it used to be.

However I'm not convinced that training methods significantly improved for the past 40 years. Equipment-wise, it sure is but the methods as such are still the same, I think (though I'm not a specialist). In the mid-sixties, they all already trained on intervals, did power-training, fitness to enhance suppleness, winter team training sessions, etc. Training in terms of volume was long gone. Coppi modernised the sport a lot. What still was pretty amateurish was the diet but even that quickly evolved in the course of the 1970's.
 
Aug 31, 2012
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Except ITTs aren't just about the engine. They're also about being aerodynamically gifted. But sure, having a wind slippery forehead is obviously the ultimate indicator of how great a cyclist one is
 
Mar 13, 2015
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Re: Re:

Echoes said:
DFA123 said:
And how many Grand Tours have Cancellara and Tony Martin got close to winning?

It's not just the specialization though; the domestiques are so much stronger now, because the level of professionalism in cycling goes much deeper. You can't win races in the same way now as previous generations could. Nowadays it is easier for a weaker rider to win a race because they are kept together for longer, but it is much harder for a stronger rider to dominate - to the extent where it is impossible to sucessfully specialize across all different disciplines.

edit... by the way, I meant to add that I enjoyed reading your post, some really good analysis and interesting details.

(thanks for the compliment in your edit ;))

Okay, so since when are GT's alone the benchmark in cycling?
Cancellara and Martin have been the best time-trialists of the past ten years, so they are the best riders of their generation, period. They have the biggest engine. ITT's are the ultimate test in cycling. You cannot cheat in ITT's, you can't draft wheels. Look at all the all-time great champions of this sport, what do they all have in common? ITT skills. Whether they be stage race specialists or classic specialists. And the better they are in ITT's the better riders they are. That's why I should rate Gimondi or Moser above De Vlaeminck, talent wise, even though De Vlaeminck could race against the clock too but he was no Gimondi.

I've already said why current GT's are charades. Ridiculously short on time trials, ridiculously high amount of MTF's with sometimes very steep gradient. Everything is made to favour featherweight climbers and to exclude the heavier complete riders. You can't win a GT if you are 70+kg nowadays. Neither can you win Liège-Bastogne or Amstel Gold because it's all about explosiveness in the final climbs and no longer about stamina. Cancellara is 81kg in his form weight. Obviously he can't win any of those races in their present-day routes. Even in their old route it would be hard. Merckx was 72kg in top form, so it's also obvious that he climbed better than Cancellara. So he was better than the best currently active rider, QED.

There are many reasons for the levelling of the peloton today. Main reason as I said, can't be discussed on this section. Then you have lighter & more efficient bikes, better asphalt, better kits, shorter races altogether, better pays, shorter race distances in semi-classics, etc. It's easier to race today than it used to be.

However I'm not convinced that training methods significantly improved for the past 40 years. Equipment-wise, it sure is but the methods as such are still the same, I think (though I'm not a specialist). In the mid-sixties, they all already trained on intervals, did power-training, fitness to enhance suppleness, winter team training sessions, etc. Training in terms of volume was long gone. Coppi modernised the sport a lot. What still was pretty amateurish was the diet but even that quickly evolved in the course of the 1970's.

So TT-ist are the best riders, period. What a joke!
 
Re:

Ruby United said:
Cav is arguably the most successful pure sprinter in history; how is Valverde more of a legend than him??

:eek: Valverde is the most complete rider of the past twelve years, the last in the lineage of Kelly and Jalabert.

Cavendish can only have Valverde's legs and durability in his wildest dreams...


This is incredible. The debate over contemporary leyends should be between Contador, Cancellara, Boonen, Valverde etc. I have no idea why Cavendish is even in the discussion. :confused:
 
Jun 29, 2015
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how can you dare to miss amazing diesels like:

-poulidor (he made it in the dictionary)
-zoetemelk
-van impe
-hansen
-purito
-sastre
 

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