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What makes a legend !

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Echoes said:
Fernandez said:
Except for Hinault, at the time when these riders competed there was no specialization and if you were better rider you won everything. If you put these riders in nowadays the wouldnt win a tenth of they won, and if you put someone like Valverde at that times he would have won more than Merckx. What for me makes Valverde close to a legend its his capacity of being competitive all year long, year after year. And what makes Contador a legend its his capacity of winning lots of different stage races year after year against lots of different contenders.

The first sentence is not true in the slightest and shows a lack of knowledge of those eras. In Merckx's days, riders like Roger Rosiers or Marc Demeyer specialised in cobble races and were known for that, Fuente and Galdós among others were specialised in climbing, Van Impe or Thévenet in stage races and to some extent hilly classics, Rik Van Linden or Jacques Esclassan couldn't do anything but sprinting, Danny Clark and Graeme Gilmore specialised in Madison track racing, etc. The complete riders were simply the best but a happy few. Usually that's because they were great stamina riders: Merckx, Gimondi, Poulidor to some extent De Vlaeminck or Zoetemelk.

The idea that oldtimers would be totally outclassed by present-day riders is ridiculous. Merckx on a stationary bike and with no ventilation could 455w in an hour. Today, only Cancellara or T. Martin could do that, and with ventilation. In the 1970 Paris-Roubaix, raced in terrible weather condition, made an average speed of 41.644kmh (on a normal bike, and weighing ~9kg and with very irregular cobbles; though should be said they had head Wind for the first two hours). In 2009 on dry conditions, with a "Paris-Roubaix special" bike and 2kg lighter, Tom Boonen made 41.342kmh (considered his finest performance). Fabian Cancellara's in 2010 - in dry though cloudy conditions - was a 39.325kmh average speed (also considered his finest performance).
Judge by yourself.

The reasons for the present-day specialisation are numerous. The main one can't be discussed on this section. However what can be pointed to is the polarisation of the race routes. Nowadays, hilly classics organizers put the emphasis on hard finales, whether with an uphill finish or a hard climb in the final ten kilometers. In mountain stage races, the mountain stages would typically finish with an MTF while in the old days, most of them finished in the valley (not talking about old these crap climbs like Angliru or Zoncolan that look more like a circus than real cycling and directly eliminate the most complete riders who are too heavy for that kind of stuff). When Rik Van Looy won the Walloon Arrow in 1968, it was seen as the crowning achievement of his career, the only classic he missed. But at that time the Arrow finished in Charleroi and the main climb of the finale was the Mur de Thuin. Those who've watched this year's last stage of the Tour of Wallonia could notice that the Mur de Thuin is a slightly cobbled short climb. So Flandrian type! So imagine the Arrow had the same route today, Boonen and Cancellara would make pretty good chance (I'm not even talking about the cobbles and bad asphalt that you then had). Today on the Mur de Huy, impossible! And don't tell me that it's a harder race today! This year's race was 205km, in 1968, it was 222.5km. In 1972 it was 249km. Generally speaking, races are nowadays much shorter than used to be, especially some classics or semi-classics which can no longer exceed 210km (thanks the UCI under Verbrugghen's leadership !!!; races like the Tre Valle Varesine or the Omloop easily exceeded 220km before 1990), while organizers are looking for very steep climbs (in finales) to make up for that shorter distance. It's pretty telling that most riders with a chance in GT's and hilly classics now rarely have a 65+kg form weight. How then can you expect them to be complete riders! Merckx, Gimondi or De Vlaeminck all had a 71/72kg form weight for a 180 to 184cm height. Riders like Gilbert or Rodriguez wouldn't have won so many races in older eras. They made the most of this new type of hilly routes. They've capitalised on the hard climbs in finales (Mur de Huy, Saint-Nicolas, Cauberg, etc) to show their amazing explosiveness (Michel Wuyts said it in the book he made with Mart Smeets, I think). But when it comes to consolidate a gap that they were able to create in a climb, they fall short. Example of that is the 2011 Tour of Flanders when Gilbert attacked in the Bosberg and was caught soon after. Gilbert is an explosive rider but he does not have the stamina (TT skills) for a long breakaway ride. Paris-Roubaix and to some extent the Tour of Flanders are the two last races that favour a stamina type of riders. The final climb of the Tour of Flanders whether on the old or the new route is 10km away from finish. It's rare these days. In my opinion that is still where you'd find the best current riders, for these reasons.
You look to have a great amount of cycling knowledge. Im not going to argue with you in that point. But let me make you just a question, do you really think Merckx would win the same today as he won at his time? Sorry but no way. And I have to tell you that some aspects of the Merckx domination shall to be discussed at the clinic chat.
 
hondated said:
I expect many of you have seen it as well and it is a publication by Cycling Weekly called Cycling Legends.
Its most recent issue features Mark Cavendish.
Now whilst I recognise that MC as in his career achieved a great deal I personally feel that describing him as a legend is a bit of overkill given those that are truly cycling legends who's names we all know.

Am I being unfair on saying this or do you agree with me.

Did the article include the words "icon," "iconic" or "epic?"
 
Aug 16, 2011
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del1962 said:
maybe Singer is talking about Olympic Medals (which in terms of numbers few others have achieved)

Singer01 said:
this, who else has had a road season like brad, and been a multiple track, world and olympic champion, and WTT and hour record to boot? however i absolutely don't think he is a legend, just saying that criteria would include brad.
for me there has to be a cut off point as the further you go down the list there is such small differences between riders. the obvious cut off point for me is below Eddie, Bernie and Fausto.

Track and road each have their own legends. And as far as road would go, I wouldn't count Wiggins as a legend due to how he has achieved his results.

A rider becoming a legend depends on many factors. How they win their races is a key one.
 
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Afrank said:
del1962 said:
maybe Singer is talking about Olympic Medals (which in terms of numbers few others have achieved)

Singer01 said:
this, who else has had a road season like brad, and been a multiple track, world and olympic champion, and WTT and hour record to boot? however i absolutely don't think he is a legend, just saying that criteria would include brad.
for me there has to be a cut off point as the further you go down the list there is such small differences between riders. the obvious cut off point for me is below Eddie, Bernie and Fausto.

Track and road each have their own legends. And as far as road would go, I wouldn't count Wiggins as a legend due to how he has achieved his results.

A rider becoming a legend depends on many factors. How they win their races is a key one.
That is what makes Wiggins a legend though, the fact that he could do it in both disciplines no one else comes close to doing what Wiggins did in two very different disciplines, he really is unique that way. I think that's why he can be regarded as a Cycling legend.
 
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To each his own. What makes a rider a legend to someone can be as subjective as simply being inspired to take up cycling after watching them ride.

IMHO it's definitely noteworthy that Wiggins was able to win so much in two forms of cycling. But I can't help finding the style of his wins to be dull and far to similar for me to consider him even close to holding legend status.
 
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Billie said:
Cancellara and Boonen are already legends.

Anyone who thinks Cavendish is more of a legend than should rethink.

Is cavendish even better than Petacchi
Cav was able to win a dull WC, that's the only reason why I'd rate him higher, other than that I'd put them on the same level.
I'd rate Cipo higher than Cav, he also has a E3 win and 3 Gent–Wevelgem wins and was a world class rider for 10 years, for a sprinter that's a very long time and he had the first big sprint train that dominated races and really changed the sport, even if many fans, me included, don't like big trains that control the race. Add his huge ego, his antics, his skinsuits and his larger than live attitude and you really have someone who had a huge impact on the sport.
 
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Valv.Piti said:
Yup Cav doesnt belong in this discussion at all. Not versatile enough, not enough classics, not enough green jerseys and began to get beat up by Kittel and Greipel when he suddenly wasnt the only sprinter in the field in TdF no more.

I think Contador for sure will enter that. The way he approach races and isnt scared to attack long way out which is a RARITY in this day and age. That deserves respect. But, but, Merckx attacked from further out and won monuments? Yup, but a completely other time. Had Contador ridden in that era, im pretty sure he would just have swept the GT's year in and year out in his prime.

Valv probably wont be considered a legend since he lacks fx. a Tour de France or a few Worlds or something like that, but he still has the pest Palmares of his generation and IS the best overall rider as well. But he just lacks something in the masses.

Boonen and Cance? Too many chrashes etc., Boonen had the tools to absolutely be one had he kept the 2005-2006 style of winning monuments and being one of the fastest men, but that for whatever reasons that didnt happen.
Cancellara happened. Boonen finally met an opponent who could drop him when seated.
 
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Cance > TheRest said:
Valv.Piti said:
Yup Cav doesnt belong in this discussion at all. Not versatile enough, not enough classics, not enough green jerseys and began to get beat up by Kittel and Greipel when he suddenly wasnt the only sprinter in the field in TdF no more.

I think Contador for sure will enter that. The way he approach races and isnt scared to attack long way out which is a RARITY in this day and age. That deserves respect. But, but, Merckx attacked from further out and won monuments? Yup, but a completely other time. Had Contador ridden in that era, im pretty sure he would just have swept the GT's year in and year out in his prime.

Valv probably wont be considered a legend since he lacks fx. a Tour de France or a few Worlds or something like that, but he still has the pest Palmares of his generation and IS the best overall rider as well. But he just lacks something in the masses.

Boonen and Cance? Too many chrashes etc., Boonen had the tools to absolutely be one had he kept the 2005-2006 style of winning monuments and being one of the fastest men, but that for whatever reasons that didnt happen.
Cancellara happened. Boonen finally met an opponent who could drop him when seated.

I think that raises an interesting point. For me, most legends need to have a rival or several rivals who really pushed them and who they battled with for a number of years.

Another reason why Cav doesn't make it. Apart from a few battles with Greipel (who is obviously nowhere near legendary status and they often avoided each other anyway), his peak came in a weak era for sprinting. Petacchi was past his best, Cipollini was pretty much gone as well and even half decent sprinters like McEwen were on the verge of retiring. As soon as Kittel came along, Cavendish faded pretty quickly.
 
Now that he is retired, do we have enough hindsight to consider Andy Schleck a legend (don't laugh)? His palmares is weak and he kept disappointing, but he sure made me feel like following pro cycling again, after the terrible Armstrong years. Plus his rivalry with Contador was something to remember.
 
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TommyGun said:
Now that he is retired, do we have enough hindsight to consider Andy Schleck a legend (don't laugh)? His palmares is weak and he kept disappointing, but he sure made me feel like following pro cycling again, after the terrible Armstrong years. Plus his rivalry with Contador was something to remember.

How is that even a question? Schleck is more of a legend than even Merckx! ;)
 
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TommyGun said:
Now that he is retired, do we have enough hindsight to consider Andy Schleck a legend (don't laugh)? His palmares is weak and he kept disappointing, but he sure made me feel like following pro cycling again, after the terrible Armstrong years. Plus his rivalry with Contador was something to remember.
Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah................................................Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
 
Tom Boonen is surely a legend.

Rider with the most number of wins both at Roubaix, Ronde, Gent and E3 (altough in some of this tied up with someone), a World Championship title and a Green jersey. And a remarkable performance in Roubaix'2012. One of the top of all time in the cobbles.
 
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Legend would be one who wins multiple times on a given race (or GC for grand tours) to ensure it was not a fluke. Contador, for sure, would earn a spot on the GC list. Sprinters, I'd have to say Oscar Freire earns a spot there. Cavendish needs to at least win another Worlds or win MSR again once more to make the qualification round.
 
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I certainly wouldn't apply legendary status to Cavendish.

However, one would expect a UK magazine targeting a UK audience to pick UK subjects - particularly one with a relatively high win count (albeit one that lacks any demonstration of versatility).
 
Some posts hinted it: to me a legend is a story. That's the definition after all, right? Nothing to do with how many MSR or GTs a rider wins IMO: that alone doesn't make a rider a legend. Poulidor is a legend: never in yellow, the eternal second. Pantani, the rise, the exploits, the drama. A legend. Eugene Christophe breaking and fixing his bike on the '13 Tourmalet stage. A legend. LeMond vs. the Badger, the comeback win in '89 by 8 seconds. He's a legend. Coppi's nickname alone (like Muhammad Ali's) makes him a legend. Same for Merckx, plus winning 1/3 of all races entered. I hate to mention him, but in his pathetic way, Armstrong has become a legend. Sadly, in a James Dean way, Frank VDB has become a legend. I would also have a special mention for Vino, who has become the option for all polls on CN, or in the language, i.e. pulling a Vino. There are others.

So it's not that the record doesn't matter. IMO it's just a part of what makes a legend. Not the biggest part. You need exploits, and in the end the story is the biggest part.
 
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Ruby United said:
Cav is arguably the most successful pure sprinter in history; how is Valverde more of a legend than him??

No he is not. Cippolini is better, Freddy Maertens is better, Andre Darrigade have similar palmares, might be better, Miguel Poblet is close, Rik Van Steenbergen is certainly better, etc.

As for Valverde, he is light years ahead of Cavendish. In his 12 professional seasons he was World Tour leading rider (and that means one of the very best in the sport) in 2006,2008 and 2014 and he will likely finish in that same place this year also. He was 2nd in 2009, 3rd in 2013, 4th in 2007, 5th in 2004 and 2012, and 7th in 2003. So he was top 5 nine times! Top 10 ten times out of twelve. He only missed twice, in his first pro season and in 2005 when he was badly injured. Only persons who tops this performance are Eddy Merckx and Sean Kelly and maybe Bernard Hinault. Only three riders in the current peloton are in the same league with Valverde, and neither of them is Mark Cavendish!
 
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Mr.White said:
Ruby United said:
Cav is arguably the most successful pure sprinter in history; how is Valverde more of a legend than him??

No he is not. Cippolini is better, Freddy Maertens is better, Andre Darrigade have similar palmares, might be better, Miguel Poblet is close, Rik Van Steenbergen is certainly better, etc.

As for Valverde, he is light years ahead of Cavendish. In his 12 professional seasons he was World Tour leading rider (and that means one of the very best in the sport) in 2006,2008 and 2014 and he will likely finish in that same place this year also. He was 2nd in 2009, 3rd in 2013, 4th in 2007, 5th in 2004 and 2012, and 7th in 2003. So he was top 5 nine times! Top 10 ten times out of twelve. He only missed twice, in his first pro season and in 2005 when he was badly injured. Only persons who tops this performance are Eddy Merckx and Sean Kelly and maybe Bernard Hinault. Only three riders in the current peloton are in the same league with Valverde, and neither of them is Mark Cavendish!

But Jacques Anquetil, Felice Gimondi, Miguel Indurain, Louison Bobet have a better palmares then Valverde. And probably more riders.
 
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Arredondo said:
Mr.White said:
Ruby United said:
Cav is arguably the most successful pure sprinter in history; how is Valverde more of a legend than him??

No he is not. Cippolini is better, Freddy Maertens is better, Andre Darrigade have similar palmares, might be better, Miguel Poblet is close, Rik Van Steenbergen is certainly better, etc.

As for Valverde, he is light years ahead of Cavendish. In his 12 professional seasons he was World Tour leading rider (and that means one of the very best in the sport) in 2006,2008 and 2014 and he will likely finish in that same place this year also. He was 2nd in 2009, 3rd in 2013, 4th in 2007, 5th in 2004 and 2012, and 7th in 2003. So he was top 5 nine times! Top 10 ten times out of twelve. He only missed twice, in his first pro season and in 2005 when he was badly injured. Only persons who tops this performance are Eddy Merckx and Sean Kelly and maybe Bernard Hinault. Only three riders in the current peloton are in the same league with Valverde, and neither of them is Mark Cavendish!

But Jacques Anquetil, Felice Gimondi, Miguel Indurain, Louison Bobet have a better palmares then Valverde. And probarly more riders.

But not Mark freaking Cavendish!!!
 
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Mr.White said:
Arredondo said:
Mr.White said:
Ruby United said:
Cav is arguably the most successful pure sprinter in history; how is Valverde more of a legend than him??

No he is not. Cippolini is better, Freddy Maertens is better, Andre Darrigade have similar palmares, might be better, Miguel Poblet is close, Rik Van Steenbergen is certainly better, etc.

As for Valverde, he is light years ahead of Cavendish. In his 12 professional seasons he was World Tour leading rider (and that means one of the very best in the sport) in 2006,2008 and 2014 and he will likely finish in that same place this year also. He was 2nd in 2009, 3rd in 2013, 4th in 2007, 5th in 2004 and 2012, and 7th in 2003. So he was top 5 nine times! Top 10 ten times out of twelve. He only missed twice, in his first pro season and in 2005 when he was badly injured. Only persons who tops this performance are Eddy Merckx and Sean Kelly and maybe Bernard Hinault. Only three riders in the current peloton are in the same league with Valverde, and neither of them is Mark Cavendish!

But Jacques Anquetil, Felice Gimondi, Miguel Indurain, Louison Bobet have a better palmares then Valverde. And probarly more riders.

But not Mark freaking Cavendish!!!

No, of course not. Cav is just a really good sprinter. Nothing special.

But Bala isn't a legend at all. One of the best riders of his generation for sure, but not a legend. They are many more riders with more big wins. And some guys who are legends because of their riding/hope they gave to an entire nation (Pantani, Gaul).
 
Re: Re:

Arredondo said:
Mr.White said:
Arredondo said:
Mr.White said:
Ruby United said:
Cav is arguably the most successful pure sprinter in history; how is Valverde more of a legend than him??

No he is not. Cippolini is better, Freddy Maertens is better, Andre Darrigade have similar palmares, might be better, Miguel Poblet is close, Rik Van Steenbergen is certainly better, etc.

As for Valverde, he is light years ahead of Cavendish. In his 12 professional seasons he was World Tour leading rider (and that means one of the very best in the sport) in 2006,2008 and 2014 and he will likely finish in that same place this year also. He was 2nd in 2009, 3rd in 2013, 4th in 2007, 5th in 2004 and 2012, and 7th in 2003. So he was top 5 nine times! Top 10 ten times out of twelve. He only missed twice, in his first pro season and in 2005 when he was badly injured. Only persons who tops this performance are Eddy Merckx and Sean Kelly and maybe Bernard Hinault. Only three riders in the current peloton are in the same league with Valverde, and neither of them is Mark Cavendish!

But Jacques Anquetil, Felice Gimondi, Miguel Indurain, Louison Bobet have a better palmares then Valverde. And probarly more riders.

But not Mark freaking Cavendish!!!

No, of course not. Cav is just a really good sprinter. Nothing special.

But Bala isn't a legend at all. One of the best riders of his generation for sure, but not a legend. They are many more riders with more big wins. And some guys who are legends because of their riding/hope they gave to an entire nation (Pantani, Gaul).

One of? I would be curious to hear who is better than Valv of this generation. I can think of one, maybe 2 who stands a chance :p

That said, I think Contador is/will be considered a legend, while Valv dont and I dont really got a problem with that. Contador is something special, but isnt a better bike rider than Valv.