What riders and teams do you trust?

[craig1985]

Yeah I'm new, but have been reading for a while, so I thought I would offer a question and try to stimulate debate and not have a thread around a certain Texan.

So hand on heart, are there any pro's and pro teams do you trust that they are performing clean and would never touch performance enhancing drugs and teams that encourage, or rather ride clean (I trust Garmin and Columbia the most at a ProTour level and I would have to put Saxo Bank at number 3)? I mean obviously I don't know what goes on in the private life a pro bike racer or a pro team, but on the outside, and when I watch them ride well and/or win, I can go 'yeah I trust them', or when you see Piepoli and Ricoo riding away from the leading peleton in the Tour last year, one could not think 'Give us a break, we know what you are on' and I will be honest, I was always skeptical of Stefan Shumacher (I remember pretty well what happened in 2005 before he joined Gerolsteiner) and had that gut feeling he was on something.

Anyway I'm rambling and I have to work early tomorrow, so fire away.

 

[Anonymous]

i trust all of em until the prove otherwise...

if we all live in suspicion where will we be... if we want to enjoy the sport and beleive it can go forward we need to beleive that every team is commited to clean riding.. if we dont we may as well pack our bags now...

doesnt mean they are all, and im not niave enough to beleive that.. but im not going to go down the road of beleiving every win or every great performance is drug inspired..

 

[tashimi76]

i trust all of em until the prove otherwise...

if we all live in suspicion where will we be...

+1 My sentiments exactly - I don't want to assume that every amazing performance is tainted as I'm sure it's possible that some are and some aren't. The amazing performance I mentioned in the Aussie post about Cameron Meyer was most likely not on drugs, and frankly I've seen other local club races that were pretty exciting too. Nicole Cooke's Olympic win for another example - the woman is so anti-doping she apparently won't room with people that take vitamin supplements.

 

[pmcg76]

I kinda agree with Dimsport, I take every ride on merit until proven otherwise, however I would never back any rider or team 100% to not dope, having said that, there are a few teams I trust more than others, Garmin-Slipstream, Columbia & the French teams, then again I would have had some faith in Gerolsteiner also!!!

Noy saying the other teams are doping, just have less faith in them. I like teams who are more open about the doping problem and speak out a bit more.

 

[ingsve]

I have to say that I do trust swedish riders slightly more than any other riders based on the general attitude towards doping in this country. I would also throw in norwegians in that same group though though perhaps slighlty behind.

The reason feel this is because there is such a nontolerance attitude towards doping in the general public and in the media in sweden. If a swedish star was to get caught doping there is no way that the person would almost ever be forgiven I think.

That leads to a feeling at least that it would take something extraordinary for a swede to cheat. This is of course a very naive attitude but I don't think it is totally without merit.

History tells us that swedes aren't immune to cheating with cases like Niklas Axelsson so there is no way of being sure.

 

[Epicycle]

i trust all of em until the prove otherwise...

if we all live in suspicion where will we be... if we want to enjoy the sport and beleive it can go forward we need to beleive that every team is commited to clean riding.. if we dont we may as well pack our bags now...

doesnt mean they are all, and im not niave enough to beleive that.. but im not going to go down the road of beleiving every win or every great performance is drug inspired..

I can enjoy the sport even though I believe most use something banned and most results are influenced by doping. I don't see any need to parse doping suspicions and enjoyment because doping has always been so integral to the sport.

I never reached a very high level in sport but even so I've personally seen a lot of doping going on. I'm very interested in guessing what is happening behind the scenes and see no problem in assigning probabilities to extra special funny stuff going on. Sometimes it's almost 100% sure, like Sella in the Giro last year. Stage races are a lot easier to get a handle on.

I just don't think it's a good idea to think in terms of trust. Approach cycling with an open mind grounded in history. Try not to feel too betrayed if your favorite rider gets busted or feel too threatened if someone says he doped.

 

[Leopejo]

I have to say that I do trust swedish riders slightly more than any other riders based on the general attitude towards doping in this country. I would also throw in norwegians in that same group though though perhaps slighlty behind.

The reason feel this is because there is such a nontolerance attitude towards doping in the general public and in the media in sweden. If a swedish star was to get caught doping there is no way that the person would almost ever be forgiven I think.

That leads to a feeling at least that it would take something extraordinary for a swede to cheat. This is of course a very naive attitude but I don't think it is totally without merit.

History tells us that swedes aren't immune to cheating with cases like Niklas Axelsson so there is no way of being sure.

I respect your national sentiments, but can't agree with them.

First of all, the best Swedes race for "continental" European outfits, become part of that society, and are pressured to live in the established way by their fellow cyclists, managers and the like.

Second, the last time I heard the general attitude towards doping argument was in an American centered cycling forum about the USA: before all those Hamilton, Landis et co. cases.

Third, I see you omitted Denmark from your list - for reason, I guess, seen Bjarne Riis's past. But what about Finland, for example? It would be difficult to argue that Swedes and Finns have very different feelings about these topics; and still they have the Lahti scandal. And call me a skeptic, but I don't think that Norwegian Nordic skiers have a much cleaner past.

Fourth, that intolerance for doping cases is more widespread in the world than you might think. Sure, it is a case-by-case thing. In Italy for example Basso is mostly hailed ("one of the few who paid for their Operation Puerto involvement"), but Riccò is probably insulted every single day when he takes his bike.

 

[Pietro]

Yeah I'm new, but have been reading for a while, so I thought I would offer a question and try to stimulate debate and not have a thread around a certain Texan.

So hand on heart, are there any pro's and pro teams do you trust that they are performing clean and would never touch performance enhancing drugs and teams that encourage, or rather ride clean (I trust Garmin and Columbia the most at a ProTour level and I would have to put Saxo Bank at number 3)? I mean obviously I don't know what goes on in the private life a pro bike racer or a pro team, but on the outside, and when I watch them ride well and/or win, I can go 'yeah I trust them', or when you see Piepoli and Ricoo riding away from the leading peleton in the Tour last year, one could not think 'Give us a break, we know what you are on' and I will be honest, I was always skeptical of Stefan Shumacher (I remember pretty well what happened in 2005 before he joined Gerolsteiner) and had that gut feeling he was on something.

Anyway I'm rambling and I have to work early tomorrow, so fire away.

All teams have doctors, know the rules, regs, tolerances, levels, amounts by heart. They all dance around the rules, wander in the grey area of 'doping'.
All use artificial means to improve performance..so what, it's entertainment afterall, bike racing, not heart surgery or world peace.

 

[ingsve]

I omitted Denmark and Finland because I don't have any grasp about the attitude towards doping in those countries. I'm swedish but have a norwegian mother so I have extensive experience of both Norway and Sweden and that's the basis of my feelings.

If I had experience of other european countries etc then perhaps I could make judgements about the morality of people from those countries as well but i don't so I can't.

The point here is that trust in a matter like this is a gut feeling and has very little to do with rational thought.

 

[patswana]

The real problem is foreign riders. All the riders from my country are clean. You can tell because they speak Australian. Foreigners however are decidedly dodgey. Can't be trusted at all.

 

[Bala Verde]

The real problem is foreign riders. All the riders from my country are clean. You can tell because they speak Australian. Foreigners however are decidedly dodgey. Can't be trusted at all.

Is McEwen flemish or Australian? He speaks both languages very well, so how would you judge him

 

[jonjungel]

I tend to trust the teams that run extra testing programs in addition to what is required. Spending money on it shows they're serious about it.

 

[franciep10]

The real problem is foreign riders. All the riders from my country are clean. You can tell because they speak Australian. Foreigners however are decidedly dodgey. Can't be trusted at all.

are you joking or serious, I really can 't tell

 

[mr. tibbs]

The real problem is foreign riders. All the riders from my country are clean. You can tell because they speak Australian. Foreigners however are decidedly dodgey. Can't be trusted at all.

Lol. I think that hits it right on the head. We all tend to favor our "national" teams & riders, but the Other teams...I don't know about them...

I think Garmin & Columbia (as well as CSC/Saxobank, strangely) are viewed as "American" teams, so they get a lot of rosy press that makes US fans feel good about them. But other teams are not covered as much, and don't get the same PR fallout.

The one exception to xenophobic doping assumptions seems to be the French teams, who most people would suggest are clean. I personally think they may be just as prone to doping as anyone else, they just don't seem to be very good at it.

 

[TRDean]

I believe Skil-Shimano is a clean team. This is one reason ASO like them so much...a small team that has done just as much as Garmin, but not gotten the press. I feel Lhotellerie last year was an interesting case. Why split from the team? Riding like a beast early, then no competition, then gone. Put 2 + 2 together. Anyway, I really like this team and wish them luck in July.

 

[Anonymous]

The one exception to xenophobic doping assumptions seems to be the French teams, who most people would suggest are clean. I personally think they may be just as prone to doping as anyone else, they just don't seem to be very good at it.

my thoughts exactly.. definately no doping in france.. well, at least theres been no amazing french performances where you suspected doping was going on..

we should keep our eyes out for mysterious performance increases and french riders sneaking into the top 20 in the tour...

 

[jaylew]

So hand on heart, are there any pro's and pro teams do you trust that they are performing clean and would never touch performance enhancing drugs

Hand on heart trust? I don't see how anyone could possibly do that with any team. It's almost ludicrous. I'm not one of those people who likes to assume everyone is on something and that every great performance is drug-fueled, but why on earth would you go out on limb for a bunch of people you don't know? Even if a team has a solid anti-drug policy and additional monitoring, you are talking about a bunch of individuals who are trying to make a living as athletes.

Now, are there teams I might have slightly more faith in than others? Sure, but I certainly wouldn't "trust" any of them.

and teams that encourage, or rather ride clean (I trust Garmin and Columbia the most at a ProTour level and I would have to put Saxo Bank at number 3)?

I'm not sure why you put Saxo Bank in there. Nothing against them, but they certainly wouldn't be anywhere near the top of any trust ranking I would come up with. Riis, F Schlecks Fuentes/OP link, the huge success they've had over the last several years...I'd have a lot more faith in the French Teams - they seem to rarely win outside the French Cup races.

 

[Anonymous]

i think if pushed to say which team i least trusted, saxo bank would be top of the list... bjarne riis, schleck, peurto, feuntes, as mentioned above is enough..

i hope im wrong, but if pushed other teams would surprise me, if saxo banks hotel was busted tommoro i wouldnt be shocked..

they dont have the greatest history... streel, bo hamburger, tyler hamilton, basso.. although to be fair, most teams have had more than that... i hope im wrong.. i did used to have suspicions of cancellara, but ive decided now that hes just a freak of nature..

 

[bianchigirl]

Epicycle, true words - I'm with you on this one.

The problem with 'innocent til proven guilty' is that it presupposes the closed society - in this case the elite riders of the pro peloton - is, like the wider society it functions in, largely 'innocent'. This quite clearly isn't the case - look at the Austrian doping cluster, for example. Assumptions of 'innocence' in this case do nothing to protect the real innocents, the clean riders, and a great deal to protect those who prefer to cheat.

As to the French riders - any rider registered with the FFC undergoes season long testing by their Federation including at least 4 longitudinal checks (blood, urine etc) throughout the year. This form of biological passport has been running since post Festina. The FFC are discussing tightening this still further. This at least seems a coherent response to the problem and addresses the issue, to some extent, at all levels.

In house doping controls are a total conflict of interests - you have to ask whether they exist to find the cheats out or to stop anybody else finding out if your team is cheating.

But some good points on this thread, particularly about partiality to riders and teams who speak the same language.

 

[BigBoat]

Yeah I'm new, but have been reading for a while, so I thought I would offer a question and try to stimulate debate and not have a thread around a certain Texan.

So hand on heart, are there any pro's and pro teams do you trust that they are performing clean and would never touch performance enhancing drugs and teams that encourage, or rather ride clean (I trust Garmin and Columbia the most at a ProTour level and I would have to put Saxo Bank at number 3)? I mean obviously I don't know what goes on in the private life a pro bike racer or a pro team, but on the outside, and when I watch them ride well and/or win, I can go 'yeah I trust them', or when you see Piepoli and Ricoo riding away from the leading peleton in the Tour last year, one could not think 'Give us a break, we know what you are on' and I will be honest, I was always skeptical of Stefan Shumacher (I remember pretty well what happened in 2005 before he joined Gerolsteiner) and had that gut feeling he was on something.

Anyway I'm rambling and I have to work early tomorrow, so fire away.

Nobody finishes the Tour/Giro/ Vuelta clean. If the pace was slower because autologous blood doping teams were kicked out then a clean rider could get inside top 75 places but no better than 50-75 range.... NO MATTER HOW TALENTED, a clean rider would be outside the top 50 no matter what. A full program of HGH, IGF-1, insulin, cortizone, 02 carriers, autologous blood doping or EPO will give up to a 30% power increase.

If everybody was clean an there was no doping I'd bet the house everyone in the Tour would have within 15% of each-other's sustainable power per kilo of weight.

Bringing drugs into a big European Pro race is a requirment... NOT a choice. Its like Miss America trying to win a pagent with no makeup, she simply would not stand a chance!

Now, some pro teams in America have been clean... And the speed is lower but even in the good ol' USA there are guys that microdose EPO at 7 P.M. after all USADA testers would have gone home, and they have catheters and bags of other people's urine incase the dope testers come... Yes they can drain their bladders... Its gross but true! the epo testing is the urine test by the way, and no rider's DNA is not compared to the sample! AND LOTS of pros dont even get tested by the way.

Cheers, dont be turned off.

 

[quadsRme]

What a comedian.....

The real problem is foreign riders. All the riders from my country are clean. You can tell because they speak Australian. Foreigners however are decidedly dodgey. Can't be trusted at all.

You are hilarious!! When and where is your comedy act performing these days?

Are all Australians funny like you?
Seriously....since we are all human beings, the opportunity to cheat is hanging in front of us like a carrot. it doesn't really matter what part of the globe you are from. we all want to believe that our nation has clean riders. Fact and belief are two very different realities.

This thread should be sent to team managers and financial partners to see what their reaction is.....I would love to hear that side of the story.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

All I'm going to say in regard to the original question is....I don't know, nor does anyone else, unless they have intimate knowledge about what's going on with a certain individual. Suspend those that are caught and keep working towards a means to an end. Additionally, a note to pro riders and teams....don't p!ss down my back and tell me it's raining!

 

[patswana]

I tend to trust the teams that run extra testing programs in addition to what is required. Spending money on it shows they're serious about it.

Both Saxo Bank & Astana run extra programs. I think only the most naive cycling fan would suggest that they are clean teams.

The internal testing programs are purely to make sure that the dope that they are taking is not going to be found in an official test.

 

[BroDeal]

I trust Tommy D. If that dude is doping then he must be getting a placebo. I trust a few riders like Moncoutie. Aside from them I don't trust much of anyone else.

I do not trust Columbia because when news of Armstrong testing positive for EPO came out, Bob Stapleton was worried about it "blowing up" the sport. It looks like he is more interested in the sport's facade than its reality.

I had hopes for Slipstream, but the list of teams that Vande Velde has ridden for and his immense step up while riding "clean" at Garmin make me very suspicious. I am skeptical of their approach of cleaning up the sport while maintaining omerta. It smells like a scam.

Trust any team run by The Hog? Forget about it.

And Riis? The performance of CSC as a team was just as surprising as that of Ricco during last year's TdF. Damsgaard got dinged for accepting a $10K bike from the team he was testing, but what about the team that gave it to him?

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Bro Deal, I'm just going to follow the advice of your signature: "Listen, my son. Trust no one! You can count on no one but yourself. Improve your skills, son. Harden your body. Become a number one man. Do not ever let anyone beat you!" -- Gekitotsu! Satsujin ken