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What riders and teams do you trust?

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May 6, 2009
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BroDeal said:
Try this: Make a list of all the riders who placed in the top ten of the three GTs in the last ten years. Now start ticking off those who have tested positive and riders like Armstrong, Kloden, and Valverde who have not been formally punished but we know were doping. See what percentage of riders are left.

I know it is 13 years ago, but somebody worked out that Peter Luttenberger was the moral winner of the 1996 TdF.
 
May 6, 2009
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BroDeal said:
The same is true for everyone else who tested positive. Does anyone believe that riders who get caught test positive for the one and only time they doped?

No of course not.

FTR I don't believe every win or great performance is doping related, as it is possible to have a very good performance where one day you are stronger then the rest.

I don't know if Contador has doped in the past or still does (if he has), I know Fuentes said he has never worked with him (but why should I believe him?), but with his size, I'm not surprised he can climb as well as he can. I'm 6ft 2'' and weigh 78 kg and have absolutely no trouble climbing, no matter how steep the gradient (and I have ridden in the Pyrennes), so if I'm taller and heavier and I have no trouble climbing, why isi t not possible for Contador to climb so well (and not be on anything), and he does this for a living?

Maybe the lgogic makes no sense at all, just something I have thought of one day.
 
Apr 1, 2009
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dimspace said:
it might be interesting to explore this and see the figures behind the myth...

how many pro-riders are there, across the pro tour teams, the continental teams and some of the smaller teams...

and how many riders have actually failed tests and been banned by the UCI.. we all talk like there are dozens being banned every week, but in reality the amount of bans is actually very small..

would be intersting to know the percentage of riders, or just how many bans v how many pro riders, and then perhaps compare that against some other sports...

somebody want to do the maths?

We all agree that testing isn't foolproof. I said positives, not bans.
We had at least as many positives over the past 15 years who didn't get a ban as those who did.
If you add to it the number of those implicated in scandals like Oil for Drugs, Operation Puerto, the Freiburg clinic, the Austrian thing.
Granted there's no proof, but there's plenty of evidence.

I believe guys start doping seriously for the GT's, during the spring, I believe there's much less doping. If you look at the names that made it onto a podium of a GT in the past 15 years, you'll find very few that haven't tested positive or been implicated with serious evidence in a doping scandal.
Cunego, Sastre, Menchov, Evans, Pereiro. Can you think of anyone else?

Edit: sorry BroDeal and Alpe. I see you guys already posted similar stuff.
 
Apr 1, 2009
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craig1985 said:
No of course not.

FTR I don't believe every win or great performance is doping related, as it is possible to have a very good performance where one day you are stronger then the rest.

I don't know if Contador has doped in the past or still does (if he has), I know Fuentes said he has never worked with him (but why should I believe him?), but with his size, I'm not surprised he can climb as well as he can. I'm 6ft 2'' and weigh 78 kg and have absolutely no trouble climbing, no matter how steep the gradient (and I have ridden in the Pyrennes), so if I'm taller and heavier and I have no trouble climbing, why isi t not possible for Contador to climb so well (and not be on anything), and he does this for a living?

Maybe the lgogic makes no sense at all, just something I have thought of one day.

But that same logic can be applied in the other direction. How can a guy who weighs 61 kilos, upon joining JB's team improve his TT skills so much as to beat specialists such as Wiggins, LL Sanchez, Millar, Chavanel, Karpets (Paris-Nice) + Pinotti, Evans, Rogers & LL Sanchez (Basque country)???
The same was true of Popovych. His results before joining Disco, when with Lotto, and now back with Astana again???
What is it that makes JB's proteges perform so well in TT's?
Other teams go to wind tunnels too, you know.
 
craig1985 said:
I know it is 13 years ago, but somebody worked out that Peter Luttenberger was the moral winner of the 1996 TdF.
Yes, Peter did manage to keep his name out of all the scandals his entire career, and that 1996 Tour was by far his best ride. But in those times, I would have a hard time believing anyone even finished that Tour clean. Still, he should at least somewhat be commended. By a similar token, Charley Mottet morally won the 1991 Tour, and Giles Delion won the 1992 version, as it's pretty well assumed those were possibly the only two clean riders during that era.

I actually started looking at top 10 finishes in recent GTs and came across some more names that haven't been involved in any direct scandals. It appears to be about a 50/50 rate. The higher you go up on GC however, the more likely to be involved in at least something. 2000-2006 has an alarming amount of GC contenders whose names were either came up positive, or were involved in one scandal or another. Here's a glance at some names who have never been in any trouble I could find (in addition to those BroDeal, Zoncolon and myself already named):

David Arroyo, Sandy Casar, Evgeni Petrov, Marzio Bruseghin, Franco Pellizotti, Domenico Pozzovivo, Jurgen Van Den Broeck, Juan Manuel Gárate, Samuel Sanchez, Vladimir Karpets, Kim Kirchen, Mauricio Soler, Roman Kreuziger, Michael Rogers, Mikel Astarloza, Cyril Dessel, Tom Danielson.

Levi Leipheimer has actually kept his nose out of trouble, except he did have a positive test as an amateur that was overturned, and he followed Lance to Dr. Ferrari's office in 2000-2001. He now rides for the Hog, so I personally have a real hard time putting him on any "clean" list, though others might. This same rule applies to Yaroslav Popovych. In a similar way, I'd say the Schleck brothers fit into this paragraph as well. Papa visited Dr. Fuentes and gave him money, though neither Schleck brother was named in OP.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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craig1985 said:
I don't know if Contador has doped in the past or still does (if he has), I know Fuentes said he has never worked with him (but why should I believe him?), but with his size, I'm not surprised he can climb as well as he can. I'm 6ft 2'' and weigh 78 kg and have absolutely no trouble climbing, no matter how steep the gradient (and I have ridden in the Pyrennes), so if I'm taller and heavier and I have no trouble climbing, why isi t not possible for Contador to climb so well (and not be on anything), and he does this for a living?

Contador's climbing ability is not in question. His improvements in the TT are quite remarkable, particularly for his body type.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
Yes, Peter did manage to keep his name out of all the scandals his entire career, and that 1996 Tour was by far his best ride. But in those times, I would have a hard time believing anyone even finished that Tour clean. Still, he should at least somewhat be commended. By a similar token, Charley Mottet morally won the 1991 Tour, and Giles Delion won the 1992 version, as it's pretty well assumed those were possibly the only two clean riders during that era.

I actually started looking at top 10 finishes in recent GTs and came across some more names that haven't been involved in any direct scandals. It appears to be about a 50/50 rate. The higher you go up on GC however, the more likely to be involved in at least something. 2000-2006 has an alarming amount of GC contenders whose names were either came up positive, or were involved in one scandal or another. Here's a glance at some names who have never been in any trouble I could find (in addition to those BroDeal, Zoncolon and myself already named):

David Arroyo, Sandy Casar, Evgeni Petrov, Marzio Bruseghin, Franco Pellizotti, Domenico Pozzovivo, Jurgen Van Den Broeck, Juan Manuel Gárate, Samuel Sanchez, Vladimir Karpets, Kim Kirchen, Mauricio Soler, Roman Kreuziger, Michael Rogers, Mikel Astarloza, Cyril Dessel, Tom Danielson.

Levi Leipheimer has actually kept his nose out of trouble, except he did have a positive test as an amateur that was overturned, and he followed Lance to Dr. Ferrari's office in 2000-2001. He now rides for the Hog, so I personally have a real hard time putting him on any "clean" list, though others might. This same rule applies to Yaroslav Popovych. In a similar way, I'd say the Schleck brothers fit into this paragraph as well. Papa visited Dr. Fuentes and gave him money, though neither Schleck brother was named in OP.

Rogers and Danielson were also clients of Ferrari. Petrov got sent home from the Tour in 2005 for a high hematocrit. It's been reported that Pozzovivo was among the CSF riders targeted for testing after the Giro last year. That testing caught Sella.

If you are going to suspect Levi for riding for Bruyneel...many of those other riders have been on suspect teams. Van den Broeck rode for Bruyneel.