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What route should ASO make for the 2018 TDF?

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Jul 4, 2015
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Just make a normal tour route, sick of seeing these parcours aimed at penalizing the strongest rider a tour route should have 100 km of tt, 5-6 hard mountain stages,7 sprint stages and a few hilly stages aimed at breakaways. None of this favoring Quintana and bardet because they can't tt, tough either they attack in the mountains regularly from a long way out or they lose the tour and it's their fault. The tour never was about climbers it was about strong riders who could tt and climb well. Finally stop putting cobbled stages and classic type stages in the tour, that's why we have the classics in the first place.
 
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Ramon Koran said:
Just make a normal tour route, sick of seeing these parcours aimed at penalizing the strongest rider a tour route should have 100 km of tt, 5-6 hard mountain stages,7 sprint stages and a few hilly stages aimed at breakaways. None of this favoring Quintana and bardet because they can't tt, tough either they attack in the mountains regularly from a long way out or they lose the tour and it's their fault. The tour never was about climbers it was about strong riders who could tt and climb well. Finally stop putting cobbled stages and classic type stages in the tour, that's why we have the classics in the first place.

Couldn't have said it better myself. If a rider is the best then you shouldn't try to stop him just for your own entertainment. Even though i don't like the way Chris Froome and Sky are riding, I'm not b*tching about it because clearly they have figured out how to be the best. Therefore, they should be rewarded for that. Until the others catch up or think of a tactic to beat Sky, then they should be entitled to race the same kind of route that has been a formality for a long time. TT'ing has always been a part of being the best GT rider, and if the climbers don't get better at it, then too bad for them. Get back to training.
 
Dekker_Tifosi said:
SeriousSam said:
Is Dumoulin even a clearly better time trialist than the best version of the time trialling Froome we've seen? I'm not sure he is.

Making the Tour more TT heavy would make a Froome victory even more likely, unless Dumoulin reveals himself to be Armstrong or Indurain this Giro.

Pretty sure the TDF last year showed that he is. However, climbing wise, I think Froome will destroy Dumoulin. Even in 1 MT watt challenges.

And the Olympics. However, he isn't that much worse and is almost as good a climber as Quintana, so unless Froome starts getting worse he'll still win (except if it's a completely flat route with 5 ITTs).

Balanced, for once. A couple of good length time trials and some proper mountain stages, and a few hilly and cobble days
 
I think the balance has switched too much from climbers to TTer's - It used to be a contender could lose 3 or 4 or minutes in a climb, but often get it back on the next climb - This type of scenario doesn't happen these days, and the losses are usually a minute or two in the mountains - Gt's have cut back TT kms in the last 10 years to reflect these changes - Think the changes to TT needs to be more severe as it's much harder to get time back in the mountains - I would look at two changes - Have a both an ITT and a TTT - An ITT of around 35kms with around 10 to 12kms being truly hilly - Then have a TTT of 20km to show the strength of the team.
 
They can make a route with 0 ITT kilometers and it still won't change the fact that the TDF is bound to be the same with the current cast that we have. We have already seen Quintana's lack of attacking spirit, AC is regressing every year and the french guys have not proven to be strong enough. Until we develop some strong GT protagonists who are not afraid of loosing big and winning great, we are stuck with the TDF that we have seen for the past 4 years. You can change the route to go against the best, but for now it won't matter.
 
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rune1107 said:
Ramon Koran said:
Just make a normal tour route, sick of seeing these parcours aimed at penalizing the strongest rider a tour route should have 100 km of tt, 5-6 hard mountain stages,7 sprint stages and a few hilly stages aimed at breakaways. None of this favoring Quintana and bardet because they can't tt, tough either they attack in the mountains regularly from a long way out or they lose the tour and it's their fault. The tour never was about climbers it was about strong riders who could tt and climb well. Finally stop putting cobbled stages and classic type stages in the tour, that's why we have the classics in the first place.

Couldn't have said it better myself. If a rider is the best then you shouldn't try to stop him just for your own entertainment. Even though i don't like the way Chris Froome and Sky are riding, I'm not b*tching about it because clearly they have figured out how to be the best. Therefore, they should be rewarded for that. Until the others catch up or think of a tactic to beat Sky, then they should be entitled to race the same kind of route that has been a formality for a long time. TT'ing has always been a part of being the best GT rider, and if the climbers don't get better at it, then too bad for them. Get back to training.
Of course, that ignores the fact that the TdF has changed its route and demands almost continuously throughout its existence. There is no such thing as a 'normal route'. It has always experimented and changed to make the race more entertaining. In the 1920s there were some routes with about 15 stages of team time trials. In the 1950s lots of long individual TTs were fashionable, in the late '60s and early 70s there was a tendency to have three or four short prologue length TTs and no longer one. In the 1980s and early 90s some routes had 150km of TTs, but were deemed really boring so the trend grew for more mountains in the 2000s.

Now mountain stages and TTs are both getting pretty dull to watch, it would only be following the Tours own history if they mixed it up and introduced a new element, or emphasized something else.
 
Jul 4, 2015
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yaco said:
I think the balance has switched too much from climbers to TTer's - It used to be a contender could lose 3 or 4 or minutes in a climb, but often get it back on the next climb - This type of scenario doesn't happen these days, and the losses are usually a minute or two in the mountains - Gt's have cut back TT kms in the last 10 years to reflect these changes - Think the changes to TT needs to be more severe as it's much harder to get time back in the mountains - I would look at two changes - Have a both an ITT and a TTT - An ITT of around 35kms with around 10 to 12kms being truly hilly - Then have a TTT of 20km to show the strength of the team.
I think the reason that riders are losing less time in the mountains is because the mountain stages have become too short and not hard enough also maybe team sizing needs to be changed, put in 5-6 proper mountain stages with at least 4 of those over 200kms, and put in 100km of tt and we will get agressive riding. Recent routes have been awful 30 km of tt and a short mountain stages only encourage passive riding and waiting for the final kilometers which in itself gives guys like froome and dumoulin an advantage anyway. For climbers to shine we need tough long stages with plenty of climbing to give climbers the advantage and encourage them to attack on those terrain and then balance it out with long tt's.
 
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Ramon Koran said:
Just make a normal tour route, sick of seeing these parcours aimed at penalizing the strongest rider a tour route should have 100 km of tt, 5-6 hard mountain stages,7 sprint stages and a few hilly stages aimed at breakaways. None of this favoring Quintana and bardet because they can't tt, tough either they attack in the mountains regularly from a long way out or they lose the tour and it's their fault. The tour never was about climbers it was about strong riders who could tt and climb well. Finally stop putting cobbled stages and classic type stages in the tour, that's why we have the classics in the first place.
The tour was always about making money for ASO. If the winner is known from the start looking at the course ASO is probably doing bad business. That is unless the winner is French or from a country where ASO has a vested interest.
 
Jul 4, 2015
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ice&fire said:
Ramon Koran said:
Just make a normal tour route, sick of seeing these parcours aimed at penalizing the strongest rider a tour route should have 100 km of tt, 5-6 hard mountain stages,7 sprint stages and a few hilly stages aimed at breakaways. None of this favoring Quintana and bardet because they can't tt, tough either they attack in the mountains regularly from a long way out or they lose the tour and it's their fault. The tour never was about climbers it was about strong riders who could tt and climb well. Finally stop putting cobbled stages and classic type stages in the tour, that's why we have the classics in the first place.
The tour was always about making money for ASO. If the winner is known from the start looking at the course ASO is probably doing bad business. That is unless the winner is French or from a country where ASO has a vested interest.
True but for the last 5 years despite all the tinkering we've had 5 awful tours, they have to accept the tactic doesn't work and change drastically or the tour will start losing people's interest
 
France has a lot of potential for good mountain stages, but that is what we currently lack. And if they're there, they're used so sadly it's unreal.
In both ranges put three mountain stages, the first of which is +-220km, has at least three HCs, including an MTF, the second of which is +-200km, has four cat. 1s and is a descent finish and then a 140km stage with two/three HC/cat 1s, including an MTF. Carnage guaranteed.
The Tour organizers are struggling to do that, though. They're getting close, but not close enough to split the field. The 2015 Tour had tonnes of potential, but all this was wasted. In the Pyrenees, had they added two more HCs to the PSM stage and made it 50kms longer and then slightly shortened the PdB stage, making it go over Pailheres, it would've been epic. In the Alps, only one stage needed to be changed - Pra Loup. Had it been 220kms and much harder, that part of the race would also have been epic. Kick out the Plumelec TTT, replace it with a 45km ITT and there's an awesome TdF.
I'm currently working on a TdF for Race Design Thread, where I'm trying to work with those requirements, simply because they'd guarantee racing.
 
A 60 km tt in the first few days, and another on the last day of about 30-40km, so the climbers know they have to go long and hard whenever the road goes uphill. 3 'queen style stages', one each in week 1, 2 and 3 so they have to hold their form for 3 weeks, and can't just super peak for the last week.
 
1. It should start in France. We've had too many overseas starts lately.
2. The Alps should come before the Pyrenees, it's getting predictable always going anticlockwise.
3. There should be a minimum of 75km of ITT, preferably closer to 100.
4. There should be at least one stage which goes up and down all day, difficult to control, and up at the 240km mark. Doesn't need major climbs, something like the Porrentruy stage in 2012 would do in terms of profile.
5. There should be a maximum of four finishes on climbs of cat.1 or HC. Definitely no more.
6. The MTFs should preferably be on climbs that have not been seen extensively in race situations by the current péloton, so that they don't all know exactly the right moments to dose their efforts and cancel one another out.
6a. The Dauphiné should not include extended Tour recces.
7. The race should cover as much of France as it can, not including entire sections of racing over an area you could throw a blanket over, which has become the norm in the Pyrenees especially of late. Use of the Massif Central and Alpes-Maritimes is to be encouraged.
8. The final mountain stage should not finish atop a summit of cat.1 or HC.
8a. Under no circumstances whatsoever should this be used to justify stage designs like 2009 Tarbes or 2010 Pau.
9. The stages with the maximum potential audience - weekend stages and Bastille Day - should be relevant. No more "sprint stage on stage 15 with a rest day then only GC relevant stages to come" format, and it is absolutely imperative that we don't have a first stage road stage guaranteed to end in a sprint. The Giro is actually the most guilty of that lately, sadly. If a rider has no intention of defending the maillot jaune as soon as obstacles appear, like Kittel in 2014, then they don't deserve the maillot jaune, period. Preferably a stage that doesn't distance people significantly but allows for small time gaps to be possible - like Plumelec in 2008, for example, or a circuit race - are fine if you want to start with a road stage, but there's nothing wrong with prologues.
10. Under no circumstances whatsoever is there to be a Team Time Trial.
11. Fix the GPM. The old system wasn't as broken as you think. It was fine, but needed tweaking so that the final climb only gave double points if it was within a fixed distance of the finish, otherwise stages like Tarbes 2009 and Pau 2010 skew it. The new system gives so much to HC and MTFs that it almost kills off the value of the breakaway. There are as many points for a Unipuerto HC MTF like Pierre-Saint-Martin in 2015 as there would have been to ride solo over Croix de Fer, Mollard and winning the La Toussuire MTF that same year, or if you took every single point in the Morzine stage in 2016. That's nonsense.
12. Have a selective stage at the latest in the middle of the first week. Whether it be a medium-mountain stage in the Vosges or Massif Central (a proper Super-Besse stage like in 2008, not an anæmic one like in 2011), an early ITT (again like in 2008) or a proper hilly or cobbled stage, we really need some gaps to be produced early enough that the bunch isn't so nervous towards the end of the week. With 200 riders all charged with protecting something, crashes are inevitable and we went through a spate of absolutely massive ones. If you force some riders through time loss to reappraise their goals early on, people start stagehunting, fulfilling different roles in the team etc., and it won't be quite as frantic at the front. And also it will mean that the winner at the end will be the best rider over three weeks, not the best rider over one week like in 2011.
 
Jesus wept, I'm already about ready to give up on it. Least inspiring start imaginable. An entire weekend of racing inevitably worse than week one in 2016 and the Giro's Northern Ireland start put together, followed by a Team Time Trial. The absolute dirt worst. It'd almost be better if they went out there and completely went all out to create the crappiest route of all time.
 
Ramon Koran said:
Just make a normal tour route, sick of seeing these parcours aimed at penalizing the strongest rider a tour route should have 100 km of tt, 5-6 hard mountain stages,7 sprint stages and a few hilly stages aimed at breakaways. None of this favoring Quintana and bardet because they can't tt, tough either they attack in the mountains regularly from a long way out or they lose the tour and it's their fault. The tour never was about climbers it was about strong riders who could tt and climb well. Finally stop putting cobbled stages and classic type stages in the tour, that's why we have the classics in the first place.
So we are looking for strong riders but we can't have any classics-style stages?
 
So where the hell are they going from La Baule, this will be the flattest first many, many days since '04 and '06 (which is hard to beat....) Further up in the north? I'd welcome some classic types of stages like the first 9 days of the 2015-route, but yeah..

Lets wait and see.
 
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Libertine Seguros said:
Jesus wept, I'm already about ready to give up on it. Least inspiring start imaginable. An entire weekend of racing inevitably worse than week one in 2016 and the Giro's Northern Ireland start put together, followed by a Team Time Trial. The absolute dirt worst. It'd almost be better if they went out there and completely went all out to create the crappiest route of all time.
Its gonna be clockwise, Libertine. Route saved.
 
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yaco said:
Will add that mountain days should finish on top of the mountain - Sick of seeing riders work hard on the mountains to gain an advantage and then losing half of it on a 10 or 20 km descent.
All mountain stages should be MTFs and no time trials - they are boring! Purito, winner of 4 GTs.

Boy yaco. Descending is a big part of cycling. Descent finishes or shallow MTFs (I wouldn't even consider Aprica a MTF, IF designed properly) are often better spectacle than a simple MTF as that forces riders to go longer out which in turn means more entertainment.