Whatever people were taking at the Vuelta

[Ferminal]

You can't compare anything to the Tour, the Giro 2010 had very "moderate" power numbers too. What it says... I don't know. I like to think that it says that the Giro and Vuelta are "clean(er)" but the Tour is an absolute dopefest with a huge emphasis on "peaking" the program in July.

There is a possibility that Nibali and Basso weren't on transfusions, but you can't say the same about the top guys in the Tour.

 

[Fowsto Cope-E]

According to this, Waterloo Sunrise's friend would be on a Pro Continental team if he could maintain that wattage for even 20 minutes

 

[MarkvW]

Recovery

Are you insane?

He did 5.5 w/kg for the final 55 minutes, including just over 5.8 w/kg for the final 19 minutes (at 6-7,000 feet)?

I'm not making any claims that this suggests he is or isn't doping, but those are very good numbers from a completely rested athlete. To do them at the end of a 5 hour stage (with three pretty hard climbs preceding), on the 20th stage of the race? That's phenomenal.

Many in this forum don't appreciate the importance of recovery and the ways doping can help in both training and racing. They just think: take dope--go faster.

 

[halamala]

Phenomonal for a clean rider yes, but 10 years ago those very numbers would only result in coming in 10-15 minutes after the winner. Nibali did the climb with a VAM of around 1400-1450. Now, if you watch this very outdated article from wikipedia...:

1800+ Vm/h: Lance Armstrong - and Marco Pantani of olden days
1650-1800 Vm/h: Top 10 / Tour de France GC or mountain stage winner.
1450-1650 Vm/h: Top 20 / Tour de France GC; top 20 on tough mountain stage.
1300-1450 Vm/h: Finishing Tour de France mountain stages in peloton
1100-1300 Vm/h: The Autobus Crew

...that is apparently only enough to finish in the peloton!

Nibali's VAM 1437 m/h

 

[BikeCentric]

Your points around hct drop off etc bring us exactly back to the point I was trying to make with this thread.

Apparently we disagree, but in the context of recent professional performances this was exceptional on the low side, not the high side. I find the fact it occured right at the end of a 3 week race very encouraging when considering the level of doping afoot - obviously the positive of his main rival is less so.

It's not so much that the two of you disagree, it's more a case of you being completely wrong. Even if your friend could produce those numbers for 30 minutes completely rested he should be on a domestic pro team getting a free bike and $10K a year cause he so strong! Guess he just can't show up on race day.

 

[flicker]

Many in this forum don't appreciate the importance of recovery and the ways doping can help in both training and racing. They just think: take dope--go faster.

From what I have heard, EPO is now being used as a recovery agent. No more Marco P. flying uphill towards the finishes and dancing a jig afterwords.
I am glad that many here have the warm fuzzie feeling about the cleanliness of the Giro+vuelta. I myself am skeptical that EPO,testasterone, and insulin + a tad of blood doping were used to facilitate an exciting race for the Vuelta fan boys and girls. After all, why not its Spain. Fiesta time!

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

According to this, Waterloo Sunrise's friend would be on a Pro Continental team if he could maintain that wattage for even 20 minutes

Yes, if 19 year olds all wished to give up very good degree courses (which allow for a training focussed lifestyle) and ride for peanuts right now, rather than waiting a couple of years.

Moreover, having looked at those tables, they're very lax on the endurance end. I've seen the same table producted by Andy Cogan with 20 minutes replaced by 1 hour, which then becomes far more sensible.


Just looked again and CozyBeehive claims it is from Andy's book - Andy's website definately says 1 hour for those figures in the final column - probably explains your confusion.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

Many in this forum don't appreciate the importance of recovery and the ways doping can help in both training and racing. They just think: take dope--go faster.

You're rather missing the point - these numbers are very poor for a fully recovered grand tour winner - indicating he was not fully recovered - indicating doping was lower than generally seen in GT winners recently.

I really didn't think this was such a difficult point - the only legitimate counter is to claim the performance isn't low, but plenty of recent GT winning performances (perhaps doped, it matters not) begs to differ.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

It's not so much that the two of you disagree, it's more a case of you being completely wrong. Even if your friend could produce those numbers for 30 minutes completely rested he should be on a domestic pro team getting a free bike and $10K a year cause he so strong! Guess he just can't show up on race day.

I really don't care a fig whether you choose to believe me on that front - it doesn't come remotely close to the actual point of this thread - Nibali produced wattages well down on anything released for a key GT winning climb in recent years - sufficiently down to suggest a clean level of maximal performance and recovery doping at lower levels than normally seen.

Also, I pity the lifestyle that considers $10k a year anything to get excited about - last time I checked the admittedly very weak dollar x-rate, that was worth roughly £6.5k, which is a level of income technically considered severe relative poverty in this country.

 

[BikeCentric]

last time I checked the admittedly very weak dollar x-rate, that was worth roughly £6.5k, which is a level of income technically considered severe relative poverty in this country.

That's exactly the point.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

That's exactly the point.

You've lost me - now you're saying the performance I quoted is rubbish and would only earn a crap salary?

Earlier it was laughably good and clearly bull****?

Please let me know what is exactly the point.

 

[GCguy5]

B1 = A1*.9
B2 = A2*.9
...
...
Copy
Paste

Whether or not this happened who knows. But just because you see a spreadsheet doesn't mean the numbers are real.

 

[Monte Zoncolon]

From what I have heard, EPO is now being used as a recovery agent

It certainly helped Lance Armstrong in his Cancer recovery. But definitely helped him won, and recover, on his way to a record breaking, 7 fraudulent consecutive
Tour De Farce victories, amongst other things!!

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

B1 = A1*.9
B2 = A2*.9
...
...
Copy
Paste

Whether or not this happened who knows. But just because you see a spreadsheet doesn't mean the numbers are real.

Another valid concern. A little tinfoil hattish, but valid.

 

[pmcg76]

Another valid concern. A little tinfoil hattish, but valid.

Overall, I think you have a valid argument, maybe the comparison with your clubmate is a bit questionable, but I have yet to see an alternative explanation as to why the figures are lower than normal for the Vuelta.

Can any of the experts on here give a plausible explanation, I am sure if the figures were higher than normal, they would be all screaming doped to the gills so surely lower than normal means cleaner, right?? or is that too logical.

 

[BikeCentric]

You've lost me - now you're saying the performance I quoted is rubbish and would only earn a crap salary?

Earlier it was laughably good and clearly bull****?

Please let me know what is exactly the point.

You are really making your cluelessness about this subject very transparent. In the USA domestic pros get paid $10-$20K (AKA next to nothing). So my point was that your friend apparently has the numbers to be a pro yet I was making the point that pros in my country don't make any money. I'm really sorry I have to spell everything out for you --edited by mod--.

 

[flicker]

Overall, I think you have a valid argument, maybe the comparison with your clubmate is a bit questionable, but I have yet to see an alternative explanation as to why the figures are lower than normal for the Vuelta.

Can any of the experts on here give a plausible explanation, I am sure if the figures were higher than normal, they would be all screaming doped to the gills so surely lower than normal means cleaner, right?? or is that too logical.

My guess is lower than normal wattage due to the placement of the Vuelta,ie; the guys are tired during August.

To believe that the vuelta in 2010 is cleaner than other years or other races is proposterous. A more fitting way to tell doping is if riders came out of nowhere and dominated, now that is an indication of fueling.

 

[flicker]

It certainly helped Lance Armstrong in his Cancer recovery. But definitely helped him won, and recover, on his way to a record breaking, 7 fraudulent consecutive
Tour De Farce victories, amongst other things!!

My Lance has never tested positive. If you need to have a study of doping durin the vuelta, ask a certain Mr. Floyd Landis or the born twin Mr. Tyler Hamilton. Lance and fire good. Tyler and Floyd bad.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

You are really making your cluelessness about this subject very transparent. In the USA domestic pros get paid $10-$20K (AKA next to nothing). So my point was that your friend apparently has the numbers to be a pro yet I was making the point that pros in my country don't make any money. I'm really sorry I have to spell everything out for you --edited by mod---.

Not sure why you have to be quite so rude --edited by mod--.

If you could explain what the pay rate of low level pros in America has to do with anything in this thread you didn't post, It would be greatly appreciated.

Let's test some things you might have meant -

"American pros make chicken****, therefore you can't possible know someone who can put out 6W/Kilo"

Nope, that doesn't make sense, and would only be a valid argument if American pros were well paid (ex falso quodlibet)

"American pros make chicken****, therefore Nibali is doped"

See above.

"American pros make chicken****, therefore Nibali's performance was actually historically impressive compared to other GT winners"

Nope, still absolutely and completely irrelevant.

Do you have anything whatsoever to contribute other than insults and a singular lack of cogency?

 

[Mambo95]

You are really making your cluelessness about this subject very transparent. In the USA domestic pros get paid $10-$20K (AKA next to nothing). So my point was that your friend apparently has the numbers to be a pro yet I was making the point that pros in my country don't make any money. I'm really sorry I have to spell everything out for you --edited by mod--.

Quiet word of advice. You're not making yourself look good here. I'd quit now, if I were you.

 

[Monte Zoncolon]

My Lance has never tested positive. If you need to have a study of doping durin the vuelta, ask a certain Mr. Floyd Landis or the born twin Mr. Tyler Hamilton. Lance and fire good. Tyler and Floyd bad.

I am sure Lance Edward Armstrong nee Gunderson was doped to the gill's when he finished in 4th Position in The general Classification In the 1998 Vuelta. Also You are completely wrong or should I say in denial:

My Lance has never tested positive

Lance Armstrong tested positive six times for EPO. All be it from ANALYSED frozen samples that came From Mr. Gunderson now Armstrong. 1999 Tour De France. Confirmed by the renowned Expert Dr. Michael Ashenden.

 

[pmcg76]

My guess is lower than normal wattage due to the placement of the Vuelta,ie; the guys are tired during August.

To believe that the vuelta in 2010 is cleaner than other years or other races is proposterous. A more fitting way to tell doping is if riders came out of nowhere and dominated, now that is an indication of fueling.

So that would be Niabli, Velits, Tondo, Danileson, who didnt ride the Tour and Frank Schleck who crashed out of the Tour in week 1. Really tired they must have been scratching their **** since May.

 

[flicker]

I am sure Lance Edward Armstrong nee Gunderson was doped to the gill's when he finished in 4th Position in The general Classification In the 1998 Vuelta. Also You are completely wrong or should I say in denial:

Lance trained harder and was highly motivated. Also windmill like cadence and laser-like focus. Sometimes it takes time to recover from cancer, otherwise Lance would have won the vuelta98 vintage.




Lance Armstrong tested positive six times for EPO. All be it from ANALYSED frozen samples that came From Mr. Gunderson now Armstrong. 1999 Tour De France. Confirmed by the renowned Expert Dr. Michael Ashenden.

We all know that the change of command with Lances sample was disrupted. To many unknown persons(gremlins?) handled Lances' 99 pee.

 

[flicker]

So that would be Niabli, Velits, Tondo, Danileson, who didnt ride the Tour and Frank Schleck who crashed out of the Tour in week 1. Really tired they must have been scratching their **** since May.

The only races that matters are the tour, classics and the ski resort TT at the Giro if Contador or Pellozotti win. I thought the 4th grand tour was great also.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Of course they doped.

Mosquera got caught with a masking agent which happens to mask epo (im sure it was just a cry for attention and not that he was actually taking epo)

Nibali has links with Ferrari and is best friends with what was probably Puertos biggest catch.

Velits performance was suspicious.

Frank Schleck a known doper came 5th.

The number 11, Garcia de pena got caught with the bomb. Epo itself.

I dont see how this Vuelta was clean at all.

Let alone they are racing in spain FFS!