what's a DOPER, really?

[BotanyBay]

The great director Louis Malle opens his short documentary about the Tour de France, called Vive Le Tour (1962), by asking - but not answering - whether le dopage will kill the sport. I'm not sure we have an answer yet.

I think the sport jumped the hayfield a long time ago.

 

[AngusW]

Is a doper a doper? Ethically, and individually, sure. In all eras they used prohibited substances to improve their performance as much as possible, and the only thing keeping some stimulant users from jumping into the EPO bandwagon was fear and a lack of understanding about its performance-enhancing benefits.

Stimulants didn't distort the sport nearly as much, but every single stimulant user was ethically just as questionable as every single EPO user, in my opinion.

+1

Good answer.

The top riders of any era took any advantage they could, whether it be training, nutrition, equipment, a team built around them or banned PEDs. Ethically, I see no difference between those who use PEDs today (EPO, HGH, etc) and those 40 or 50 years ago who used cortisone and amphetamines.

Taking banned PEDs of any kind in whatever era is IMO cheating.

 

[Race Radio]

After all those years of racing like a madman and massive abuse of amphetamines and who knows what else, I don't doubt he was a madman, even if he didn't start out as one. But that doesn't mean he didn't have a point. Maybe the answer, if it could be arranged, is to really try racing without drugs and see what it looks like.

The great director Louis Malle opens his short documentary about the Tour de France, called Vive Le Tour (1962), by asking - but not answering - whether le dopage will kill the sport. I'm not sure we have an answer yet, but it certainly has changed the sport, as I think you can see from watching this film, and mostly not for the better.

Most of the stars of that era would still have been stars without drugs....but they likely would not have raced 200 days a year

 

[ChrisE]

LOL what a thread.

I suggest we get real and rename it the Greg Lemond Azz Covering Thread.

 

[MacRoadie]

LOL what a thread.

I suggest we get real and rename it the Greg Lemond Azz Covering Thread.

Naw, I like "The Azzes Still Can't Find Squat On LeMond Thread" much better.

Or maybe "I'm Gonna Pull Some Idiotic Crap About LeMond Out of My Azz and Try to Find Some Idiot on The Internet Who'll Believe It Thread"...

 

[MarkvW]

Naw, I like "The Azzes Still Can't Find Squat On LeMond Thread" much better.

Or maybe "I'm Gonna Pull Some Idiotic Crap About LeMond Out of My Azz and Try to Find Some Idiot on The Internet Who'll Believe It Thread"...

This thread is interesting--especially when the topic focuses on 70s/80s racing, early American racers in Europe, and the transitional dopage period.

Trolls who want to denigrate LeMond . . . not so much.

 

[ChrisE]

Naw, I like "The Azzes Still Can't Find Squat On LeMond Thread" much better.

Or maybe "I'm Gonna Pull Some Idiotic Crap About LeMond Out of My Azz and Try to Find Some Idiot on The Internet Who'll Believe It Thread"...

OK Mac I get it now.

The PED's pre-EPO were ineffective, and the joke is on the idiots that took them and risked getting caught by even the rudimentary testing programs. They may have been used for recovery, iow no performance benefit. Check. Even if they were effective they were no match for superman. Greg Lemond can leap tall buildings in a single bound, and the cherry is he and LA are enemies.

This thread has cleared up any friendly fire strafing Captain America. It's like a great shield protecting the righteous, thwarting all agnostics. It reminds me of that shield around the death star, and this time the ewoks have been successfully repelled.

I'm on board now. I hope with this admission you can forgive me for the placenta joke all those years ago.

 

[patricknd]

OK Mac I get it now.

The PED's pre-EPO were ineffective, and the joke is on the idiots that took them and risked getting caught by even the rudimentary testing programs. They may have been used for recovery, iow no performance benefit. Check. Even if they were effective they were no match for superman. Greg Lemond can leap tall buildings in a single bound, and the cherry is he and LA are enemies.

This thread has cleared up any friendly fire strafing Captain America. It's like a great shield protecting the righteous, thwarting all agnostics. It reminds me of that shield around the death star, and this time the ewoks have been successfully repelled.

I'm on board now. I hope with this admission you can forgive me for the placenta joke all those years ago.

i remember the placenta joke on dpf, didn't remember it was you, but i'm not surprised

 

[MacRoadie]

i remember the placenta joke on dpf, didn't remember it was you, but i'm not surprised

Yeah, well, he keeps going back to that well. When all else fails, stick with something safe, familiar, and from within your intellectual comfort zone...in other words, from third grade.

Piacenza (Placentia in Latin, Piasëinsa in the local dialect of Emiliano-Romagnolo) is a city and comune in the Emilia-Romagna region of northern Italy. It is the capital of the province of Piacenza. Modern forms of the name descend from Latin Placentia.[note 1] The etymology is long-standing, tracing an origin from the Latin verb, placēre, "to please."[2] It is thus a "pleasant abode" or as James Boswell reported some of the etymologists of his time to have translated, "comely."[3] This was a name "of good omen."[4]

 

[MacRoadie]

By the way, has anyone turned up any evidence that LeMond doped yet?

Just checking.

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

By the way, has anyone turned up any evidence that LeMond doped yet?

Just checking.

the fact that he won races is pretty crucial to me

 

[ChrisE]

By the way, has anyone turned up any evidence that LeMond doped yet?

Just checking.

Actually, that is the only time I have referred to "placenta" since it happened so I'm not sure why you say that I keep referring to it. I drink alot so maybe I jabbed you with it and don't remember. Even so, it was an honest mistake I made while reading your hometown too quickly. I see you aren't as forgiving as digger.

I too wait for evidence that he doped, so we are in solidarity here. BTW, can we stop referring to him as "Lemond" or GL? I prefer the more apt name of "Captain America". I'm also good with "Ultraman", your call.

 

[Albatros]

By the way, has anyone turned up any evidence that LeMond doped yet?

Just checking.

3 Tours de France my dear fellow. I think that is pretty conclusive evidence.

Fignon took amphetamines, something Anquetil, Coppi, Simpson,Merckx and many other top riders could not live without. He also took steroids that helped tremendously in a 3 week race (Lemond words) and Superman could still beat him?

How did he know the effects of testosterone anyway?

 

[pmcg76]

3 Tours de France my dear fellow. I think that is pretty conclusive evidence.

Fignon took amphetamines, something Anquetil, Coppi, Simpson,Merckx and many other top riders could not live without. He also took steroids that helped tremendously in a 3 week race (Lemond words) and Superman could still beat him?

How did he know the effects of testosterone anyway?

Amphetamines Apart from the limited benefits of amphetamines, they were a non-factor in the Tour during the 80s because they were detectable in anti-doping.

This is real simple:

Willy Voet, the guy at the centre of the whole Festina affair said Charly Mottet rode clean and he was ranked World number 1 in 89. He also finished 4th in the Tour twice and 6th in 89. He won Dauphine Libere 3 times and numerous other big races.

Voet also said that Eric Caritoux won the Vuelta in 84 clean but doped at other times.

The Helvetia team of Paul Koechli had a reputation as a non-doping. no needle team. Steve Bauer, team leader at Koechli' team's in 88-89 who was another rider with a clean reputation finished 4th in the 88 Tour.

Another Koechli rider Giles Delion who was a clean rider and spoke openly about doping long before Festina, finished 16th in his Tour debut at 23years old and won the Tour of Lombardy the same year, 3rd at Milan-San Remo, Tirreno-Adriatico, 2nd Romandy, 5th in the World Cup.

Jesper Skibby who admitted to doping from 91 onwards which included his biggest victories, finished 3rd in the first long TT in the 87 Tour on his Tour debut. Skibby won a stage at the Giro in 89 and finished 14th overall.

Rolf Jarmann, another rider who admitted to doping from when he joined the Ariostea team in 92 won a stage at the Giro in 89. Swiss Champion in 90.

Andy Hampsten, another guy with a clean rep, 4th in 86 Tour and Giro winner in 88, 3rd in 89.

If these results are genuine, that means they were achieved against doped up riders on amphetamines, testosterone, cortisone etc. If this was possible I fail to see how a supposedly more talented athlete like LeMond could not win the Tour clean.

You quote Fignon as a reference but if you believe Fignon then you would also have to believe what the likes of Voet, Delion, Skibby etc say or does what Fignon published in his book have more value than what others have stated in their publications other than if suits your own particular agenda.

 

[Race Radio]

3 Tours de France my dear fellow. I think that is pretty conclusive evidence.

Fignon took amphetamines, something Anquetil, Coppi, Simpson,Merckx and many other top riders could not live without. He also took steroids that helped tremendously in a 3 week race (Lemond words) and Superman could still beat him?

How did he know the effects of testosterone anyway?

Fignon did not take amphetamines during the Tour. He knew that they were useless in the July heat and did more damage then good. You are welcome to pretend that uppers somehow gave a performance advantage in a GT but most rational people know they were used so riders could race 30 days of post-Tour crits

Greg knew the supposed effects of Test because the doctors at PDM tried to convince him to take it. He turned them down.

 

[Race Radio]

By the way, has anyone turned up any evidence that LeMond doped yet?

Just checking.

Nope, none.

 

[Albatros]

Amphetamines Apart from the limited benefits of amphetamines, they were a non-factor in the Tour during the 80s because they were detectable in anti-doping.

Were all detectable? How do you know? Everything and nothing is detectable in an antidoping control. Fignon was caught twice in an antidoping control using amphetamines in 1987 and 1989 btw.

On its limited effect there are many accounts from ex pros who took them who seem to disagree with your view.

This is real simple:

Willy Voet, the guy at the centre of the whole Festina affair said Charly Mottet rode clean and he was ranked World number 1 in 89. He also finished 4th in the Tour twice and 6th in 89. He won Dauphine Libere 3 times and numerous other big races.

Voet also said that Eric Caritoux won the Vuelta in 84 clean but doped at other times.

The Helvetia team of Paul Koechli had a reputation as a non-doping. no needle team. Steve Bauer, team leader at Koechli' team's in 88-89 who was another rider with a clean reputation finished 4th in the 88 Tour.

Another Koechli rider Giles Delion who was a clean rider and spoke openly about doping long before Festina, finished 16th in his Tour debut at 23years old and won the Tour of Lombardy the same year, 3rd at Milan-San Remo, Tirreno-Adriatico, 2nd Romandy, 5th in the World Cup.

Jesper Skibby who admitted to doping from 91 onwards which included his biggest victories, finished 3rd in the first long TT in the 87 Tour on his Tour debut. Skibby won a stage at the Giro in 89 and finished 14th overall.

Rolf Jarmann, another rider who admitted to doping from when he joined the Ariostea team in 92 won a stage at the Giro in 89. Swiss Champion in 90.

Andy Hampsten, another guy with a clean rep, 4th in 86 Tour and Giro winner in 88, 3rd in 89.

If these results are genuine, that means they were achieved against doped up riders on amphetamines, testosterone, cortisone etc. If this was possible I fail to see how a supposedly more talented athlete like LeMond could not win the Tour clean.

And this is what I question. And there are two reasons for it. Widespread use of doping that has been a constant in the history of cycling and the benefits the dopers obtained from its use. There are many accounts putting doping, regardless of the era, as something that would/will improve performance tremendously. Even Willy Voet tells in his book of the effect amphetamines had on his performance when he as an amatuer, took them in a race and could compete for the first time with the top amateurs.

And maybe Lemond did not need to resort to doping to beat average riders, but what about the top ones. And the majority of them were doping with something he states that helped tremendously. Explain that one to me, please.

You quote Fignon as a reference but if you believe Fignon then you would also have to believe what the likes of Voet, Delion, Skibby etc say or does what Fignon published in his book have more value than what others have stated in their publications other than if suits your own particular agenda.

Yes, I am doing exactly like you, believe what it suits my particular agenda, cause you don't believe the ones who put doping as basically essential to survive either.

And those accounts match very well with other accounts in other drug fuelled sports like football.

This is what Carlo Petrini, an ex footballer in the 60's 70's had to say about his experiences with doping. And it wasn't EPO what he was taking.


A former Milan player has admitted he and other players in Milan were subject to doping in the 1960's and 70's.
Sixty-year-old Carlo Petrini says that he and others were part of a culture of doping at the Rossoneri that was forced upon them by the then management, in a time when the long term affects of performance enhancers were largely unknown.

The former player revealed, “As well as being given medicine, I was also a victim of doping. I say victim, because to me that's what I was.”

Petrini told Sky Sport 24, “The first time, the doctor, masseur and coach came into the dressing room. The doctor had a vial in his hands which looked like a bottle of Orangina with a soft stopper. At that time disposable syringes didn't exist so big glass syringes that were boiled up along with the needles were used. That day, the needle went into the vial five times before being injected into five different thighs.”

Petrini continued, “It was only afterwards that we realised what we'd been given because whether it was running, jumping, or going for goal we had energy to burn. We felt fresh and just didn't run out of energy. Every day there were injections going around.”

Petrini, who in 2001 published a book in which he slammed past doping practices in the game, said, “Sometimes your tongue was so swollen it filled the entire mouth. We had to run around with our mouths open. At the end of the match we thought it would end there, but you had so much energy left you couldn't sit still. At three or four in the morning, when fatigue started to set in, you'd fall asleep on the spot.”

So, when Anquetil said that it would be impossible to go at that pace without the use of stimulants maybe he had a point.

 

[Race Radio]

Were all detectable? How do you know? Everything and nothing is detectable in an antidoping control.

Ahh, the magical undetectable uppers. Supplied by space aliens of course

The desperation is obvious.

 

[MacRoadie]

So the answer is still "no".

Just checking.

 

[MacRoadie]

Actually, that is the only time I have referred to "placenta" since it happened so I'm not sure why you say that I keep referring to it. I drink alot so maybe I jabbed you with it and don't remember. Even so, it was an honest mistake I made while reading your hometown too quickly. I see you aren't as forgiving as digger.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=138951&postcount=19

Maybe I should type slower. How about you find something from a source (not me) that this name was used prior to say August 2009.

I think you must still be mad at me for mistyping your hometown as "placenta" on DPF. It was an honest mistake, I promise.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=139840&postcount=40

Again, I'm sorry about the placenta thing. Let's move on.

 

[pmcg76]

Were all detectable? How do you know? Everything and nothing is detectable in an antidoping control. Fignon was caught twice in an antidoping control using amphetamines in 1987 and 1989 btw.

On its limited effect there are many accounts from ex pros who took them who seem to disagree with your view.




And this is what I question. And there are two reasons for it. Widespread use of doping that has been a constant in the history of cycling and the benefits the dopers obtained from its use. There are many accounts putting doping, regardless of the era, as something that would/will improve performance tremendously. Even Willy Voet tells in his book of the effect amphetamines had on his performance when he as an amatuer, took them in a race and could compete for the first time with the top amateurs.

And maybe Lemond did not need to resort to doping to beat average riders, but what about the top ones. And the majority of them were doping with something he states that helped tremendously. Explain that one to me, please.




Yes, I am doing exactly like you, believe what it suits my particular agenda, cause you don't believe the ones who put doping as basically essential to survive either.

And those accounts match very well with other accounts in other drug fuelled sports like football.

This is what Carlo Petrini, an ex footballer in the 60's 70's had to say about his experiences with doping. And it wasn't EPO what he was taking.


A former Milan player has admitted he and other players in Milan were subject to doping in the 1960's and 70's.
Sixty-year-old Carlo Petrini says that he and others were part of a culture of doping at the Rossoneri that was forced upon them by the then management, in a time when the long term affects of performance enhancers were largely unknown.

The former player revealed, “As well as being given medicine, I was also a victim of doping. I say victim, because to me that's what I was.”

Petrini told Sky Sport 24, “The first time, the doctor, masseur and coach came into the dressing room. The doctor had a vial in his hands which looked like a bottle of Orangina with a soft stopper. At that time disposable syringes didn't exist so big glass syringes that were boiled up along with the needles were used. That day, the needle went into the vial five times before being injected into five different thighs.”

Petrini continued, “It was only afterwards that we realised what we'd been given because whether it was running, jumping, or going for goal we had energy to burn. We felt fresh and just didn't run out of energy. Every day there were injections going around.”

Petrini, who in 2001 published a book in which he slammed past doping practices in the game, said, “Sometimes your tongue was so swollen it filled the entire mouth. We had to run around with our mouths open. At the end of the match we thought it would end there, but you had so much energy left you couldn't sit still. At three or four in the morning, when fatigue started to set in, you'd fall asleep on the spot.”

So, when Anquetil said that it would be impossible to go at that pace without the use of stimulants maybe he had a point.

Most races outside of the Tour didnt have tests for amphetamines and if you actually read Fignon's book you would know that he made a mistake on one of those tests and he believes the other was fixed. He also never said it was impossible to compete clean.

If you can actaully quote riders who said it was impossible to compete clean, then bring them. How would they know anyawy, if they couldnt compete clean doesnt someone else could. That would be their personal opinion.

How can you quote Voet and then ignore when Voet says a clean rider was world No 1. If you dont believe it was possible for a clean rider to beat a doped rider, then how can this be true. If you dont believe it to be true, then dont quote Voet at all because he is clearly not a valid source on anything.

I have never said doping didnt improve performance and nobody ever said that, based on all accounts that I have read, the general consensus is that talented clean riders could compete with doped riders.

 

[BotanyBay]

Nope, none.

But how could we possibly know? I mean those station wagons they used to drive to the races in... They're so spacious that they could have a whole mess of IV bags in there and we'd all be none the wiser.

 

[Albatros]

Ahh, the magical undetectable uppers. Supplied by space aliens of course

The desperation is obvious.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter if Lemond doped or not, cause doping was just a very minor aid during his successful era. It is only after 1990 that the real good stuff gets into the cheats veins and poor Lemond can not cope with them anymore. Isn't that the gist of the story?

Regarding amphetamines. Do a search of eighities riders and see how many were caught or have confessed using them.

 

[Albatros]

If you can actaully quote riders who said it was impossible to compete clean, then bring them. How would they know anyawy, if they couldnt compete clean doesnt someone else could. That would be their personal opinion.

Plenty. Not in those terms, but suggesting that without doping no chance of staying with the best.

I will make a compilation for you this weekend.

How would you know? Very easily. You always have been a top dog from your amateur days, and you learned that without the dope you couldn;t compete with the best. If this statement is repeated by many top riders, the chances of being true are very high, especially when you read some descriptions of the massive improve in performance, in some cases by people who had absolutely nothing to gain from that afirmation.

How can you quote Voet and then ignore when Voet says a clean rider was world No 1. If you dont believe it was possible for a clean rider to beat a doped rider, then how can this be true. If you dont believe it to be true, then dont quote Voet at all because he is clearly not a valid source on anything.

Nobody tells always the truth, and some things we believe are more opinions than reality. You may believe something is true but there is no means for you to know you are absolutely certain. On the other hand, if he says that when he took stimulants, the effect was almost magical, I am more bound to believe him, cause it suits my agenda like you said.

I mean, why would he lie about the effect of a drug when nobody cares even if he doped or not.

I have never said doping didnt improve performance and nobody ever said that, based on all accounts that I have read, the general consensus is that talented clean riders could compete with doped riders.

Consensus among who, cause if I go by confessions by some of the dopers and exdopers there is no way you could compete without taking the stuff, and that is the nub of the matter for me.

 

[Michele]

At the end of the day it doesn't matter if Lemond doped or not, cause doping was just a very minor aid during his successful era. It is only after 1990 that the real good stuff gets into the cheats veins and poor Lemond can not cope with them anymore. Isn't that the gist of the story?

Regarding amphetamines. Do a search of eighities riders and see how many were caught or have confessed using them.

I suggest you to see some videos like this.