Whats a Soccer/Football program look like?

[icefire]

I have no time to read this article now but I thought I would still bring this to your attention

"No systematic doping in football"

http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/section?content=a789548130&fulltext=713240928

What do you think of this?
Though I have always believed football has a clear doping problem.

Not surprised to read about blood boosters in football. People here downplaying the endurance factor in the sport should pay attention to the players' performance in KO games that go to 30min extra time.

 

[The Hitch]

Not surprised to read about blood boosters in football. People here downplaying the endurance factor in the sport should pay attention to the players' performance in KO games that go to 30min extra time.

But extra time games are very rare.
Besideds if endurance was such a factor, i think you would see managers using substitutions more often. In the modern game managers only really use substitutions if a player is injured, playing really badly or if they want to change tactics. Very often managers dont even use their 3 available substitutions, and some players (especially C ronaldo) throw tantrums when they are substituted.

If endurance was a big factor you would see managers telling wingers to go all out for 50-60 minutes, and then have 2 replacement wingers waiting to take their place at that point and continue the strategy.
this never happens, and players who run a lot are just as unlikely to get substituted as those who dont.

 

[galaxy1]

those that think EPO is necessary in football do not understand football, i think.
the most active midfielders run around 10km during 90 minutes, i believe - a feat my aging mother-in-law comfortably managed recently at a charity event. bear in mind also that these footballers have been training 4 hours every day for their whole lives. if they are doping i'm sure it would be for sprint speed (and possibly strength if they are too lazy to do weights - the strength requirements of the sport are not great) rather than endurance. however, a lot of football clubs are still using training techniques from the '60s for their fitness regime - so i'd be surprised if they were cutting edge on doping.

having said that, there is a lot of money in football and as stated above the testing is not stringent - so it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of them are doing something.

i think i would expect more whistleblowing going on though - if there really is widespread doping in all these big clubs, their omerta must be 10 times tighter than that of cycling. thousands of players "nearly made it" at these clubs, yet the combined evidence of doping is very low indeed.

 

[ThorFolerSegSterkIDagDu]

EPO would give you an advantage in football definetly, didnt find a way to translate this article but maybe someone else does. Its in norwegian:

http://www.vg.no/sport/fotball/artikkel.php?artid=76826

Moreover, i found this article very interesting:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/2388078/Arsenal-players-used-EPO-says-Wenger.html

 

[The Hitch]

EPO would give you an advantage in football definetly, didnt find a way to translate this article but maybe someone else does. Its in norwegian:

http://www.vg.no/sport/fotball/artikkel.php?artid=76826

Here it is

http://translate.google.co.uk/trans...refox-a&hs=X0D&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official

 

[carl spackler]

"No systematic doping in football"

http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/sec...text=713240928

Wow, thats a serious, detailed specific article. The likes of which are hard to come by. Dont know if id reach the same conclusion though, especially with regard to the survey. If a lot of players are doping, they certainly wouldnt want that publicized and hence might lie on the survey dont you think?

Didnt realize Juventus was that widespread and seemingly organized. Zidane = Roid rage? - Just Kidding, please dont freak out anyone.

 

[luckyboy]

If people haven't mentioned it already, doping to heal injuries would probably be a big thing. Sometimes it's surprising how quickly players come back from breaks..

those that think EPO is necessary in football do not understand football, i think.

Various articles have been linked here that specifically link football teams/footballers to EPO

http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/section?content=a789548130&fulltext=713240928

Thanks for that link, I'll read it tomorrow probably.

 

[luigiV]

Yes, but when you are greatest ever to grace a football pitch you get away with things[/QUOTE
true that

 

[Hawkwood]

As to what sort of programme footballers might be on, and whether drugs are needed in a sport such as football take a look at this article http://www.soccerperformance.org/playertypes/physdemandsprosoccer.htm

It says that the VO2 max required for top players is the same as that needed to run a marathon. It also suggests that footballers run less in the second half due to fatigue. Both of these factors might suggest that footballers could benefit from doping.

 

[THISISIT]

As to what sort of programme footballers might be on, and whether drugs are needed in a sport such as football take a look at this article http://www.soccerperformance.org/playertypes/physdemandsprosoccer.htm

It says that the VO2 max required for top players is the same as that needed to run a marathon. It also suggests that footballers run less in the second half due to fatigue. Both of these factors might suggest that footballers could benefit from doping.

There is also some commonly sited stat about the disproportionate large number of goals scored in the latter part of matches, i.e. when fatigue sets in. The ability to repeatedly sprint is influenced by endurance, the willingness to put yourself where you should be on the pitch is influenced by endurance, etc.

While soccer is overwhelmingly a skill sport, physically ability including endurance is also very important.

Given the money involved and the lax testing, you would figure doping would be wide spread.

 

[spanky wanderlust]

those that think EPO is necessary in football do not understand football, i think.
the most active midfielders run around 10km during 90 minutes, i believe - a feat my aging mother-in-law comfortably managed recently at a charity event. bear in mind also that these footballers have been training 4 hours every day for their whole lives. if they are doping i'm sure it would be for sprint speed (and possibly strength if they are too lazy to do weights - the strength requirements of the sport are not great) rather than endurance. however, a lot of football clubs are still using training techniques from the '60s for their fitness regime - so i'd be surprised if they were cutting edge on doping.

having said that, there is a lot of money in football and as stated above the testing is not stringent - so it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of them are doing something.

i think i would expect more whistleblowing going on though - if there really is widespread doping in all these big clubs, their omerta must be 10 times tighter than that of cycling. thousands of players "nearly made it" at these clubs, yet the combined evidence of doping is very low indeed.

it never would have occured to me that this thread would end up in a debate about WHETHER there was blood manipulation in football. OF COURSE there is. it is probably widespread and likely systematic. maybe i'm wrong. maybe the boys in serie a really are a bunch of boyscouts.

the benefits of blood boosting would be enormous for footballers. this should be obvious. i forget. which other sport had player's blood bags found in eufemio fuentes's fridge? golf? no. formula 1? nah. oh yeah! soccer!

anyway, the original poster asked what a program looked like. let's talk about that because i think it is interesting and relates to cycling.

what are the controls? how do they get around them? what combination of boosting recovery are the powerhouse club teams on? how many teams have manolo saiz-style organized programs? how do those work? is omerta enforced differently from cycling?

 

[Hawkwood]

Willie Johnston, a Scots footballer, was done for amphetamines in the 1978 World Cup. The joke at the time was the rest of the team were on sleeping pills!

 

[The Hitch]

it never would have occured to me that this thread would end up in a debate about WHETHER there was blood manipulation in football. OF COURSE there is. it is probably widespread and likely systematic. maybe i'm wrong. maybe the boys in serie a really are a bunch of boyscouts.

the benefits of blood boosting would be enormous for footballers. this should be obvious. i forget. which other sport had player's blood bags found in eufemio fuentes's fridge? golf? no. formula 1? nah. oh yeah! soccer!

anyway, the original poster asked what a program looked like. let's talk about that because i think it is interesting and relates to cycling.

what are the controls? how do they get around them? what combination of boosting recovery are the powerhouse club teams on? how many teams have manolo saiz-style organized programs? how do those work? is omerta enforced differently from cycling?

Damn. When you said that i was hoping you had some theories.

 

[MacRoadie]

Willie Johnston, a Scots footballer, was done for amphetamines in the 1978 World Cup. The joke at the time was the rest of the team were on sleeping pills!

No sleeping pills needed, plenty o' wee goldies...

 

[Cozy Beehive]

luckyboy posted on a similar thread this link 2 days ago

proof that juventus including zidane, davids, roberto baggio, vialli were doping

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/27/sports/27iht-juve_ed3_.html?_r=2

also Messi moved to catalunia at a young age to get "hormone treatment" and the game is far more physical and faster than it was before.

Zidane taking creatine is now doping? And Messi being put on hormone therapy at age 9 to take care of his height problem is doping too? Nonsense, really.

 

[spanky wanderlust]

Damn. When you said that i was hoping you had some theories.

not sure what you're getting at here hitch. from my post it is clear what i think: that blood doping is common and systematic. i also previously posted some speculation about what the elites might be doping with.

this quote from the article you provided the translation for sums it up for me:

- "Until proven otherwise, one is innocent. But I guess no one is so naive and believe that there is no doping in football. Even the monkeys know that, " Sollied to VG Nett. translated by google

i'm still sorting through the article fklance posted but the abstract states the conclusion that peds are widespread and that fifa's turning of a blind eye is hindrance to developing proper controls.

i, like the op, am very interested in how a professional programme looks. how is it different from the bruyneel system? i'm hoping that folks more knowledgeable about fifa controls v uci controls will chime in with links and so forth.

i'm also interested in what a tennis program would look like. it is wimbledon season afterall. maybe later i'll start a thread about that.

 

[The Hitch]

God its so hard to recognise sarcasm.

Zidane taking creatine is now doping? And Messi being put on hormone therapy at age 9 to take care of his height problem is doping too? Nonsense, really.

If you were NOT being sarcastic then:
Zidane admitted taking creatine and looks old for his age. In this forum (the clinic) that is enough to accuse someone of doping. And if anyone in football is doping its Barcelona (very successful club in North Spain, 2005 team strongly linked to doping), so messi getting hormone treatment from them at a young age is suspicious, especially considering his speed and strength. Oh and there are plenty of players who are smaller than messi would have been without the height thing.

i'm also interested in what a tennis program would look like. it is wimbledon season afterall. maybe later i'll start a thread about that.

If you were NOT being sarcastic then:
This was started a week ago. http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=8264 Feel free to speculate.

 

[galaxy1]

sorry but i find it highly unlikely there is much organised doping going on.

(1) give the barcelona team performance-degrading drugs, and they would still be one of the best teams in europe. this is because they are all incredibly skilful and the team is well-organised.

(2) organised doping tends to create a real "whiff" of doping because however strong the "omerta", there will always be people who have to be involved who are uncomfortable with it and have nothing to lose from speaking out, c.f. cycling.

(3) football is highly scrutinised in the media - anything that can be turned into a talking point about football for the benefit of 24-hour news, generally is.

i agree that lots of money + lax testing surely leads to some people trying it. it is certainly clear that, due to cultural differences, football has no problem with teams trying (illegal in cycling) stuff such as blood spinning etc.

 

[sherer]

not sure what it does but this one was taking Nadrolone

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pep_Guardiola

He was banned for 6 months not sure if that included any of the off season. I think he was banned with another player as well.

He got the ban annulled later on though but I don't read too much into that

 

[luckyboy]

Quite a few European players banned for nandrolone. 2 from Lazio, 2 from Piacenza, 2 from Perugia.

Jaap Stam (Lazio, 2001) - 5 month ban reduced to 4
Fernando Couto (Lazio, 2001) - 9 month ban reduced to 4
Edgar Davids (Juventus, 2001) - 4 month ban
Carlos Gurpegi (Athletic Bilbao, 2006) - 2 year ban (served after 3 years of appeals)
Frank de Boer (Barcelona, 2001) - 12 month ban (thrown out after appeal)
Pep Guardiola (Brescia, 2001) - 4 month ban, 7 month suspended prison sentence (cleared in 2007, CONI reopened case in 09, but closed it soon after)
Lorenzo Bucchi (Perugia, 2001) - 16 month ban
Salvatore Monaco (Perugia, 2001) - 16 month ban
Andrea Da Rold (Pescara, 2001) - 4 month ban
Jean Francois Gillet (Bari, 2001) - 4 month ban
Stefano Torrisi (Parma, 2001) - 4 month ban
Stefano Sacchetti (Piacenza, 2001) - 4 month ban
Nicola Caccia (Piacenza, 2001) - 4 month ban


No organized doping there..

Also, in July 98, Roma manager Zdenek Zeman sparked the whole Juventus doping thing, accusing them of using steroids. Seemed relevant.

 

[sherer]

as i've said before about cycling what incentive would the Italian FA or Spanish FA have in going after the top clubs. They win the Euro comps and bring in money to the FA so why cut off the hand that feeds it.

Until that is changed we will always see doping as your own authorities can cover it up for you, or even worse be in on the secret

 

[The Hitch]

today blatter announced that before the wc they had 200 drug tests, and during the wc they had 500 tests, all negative.

All good then.