::::~ Wheelbuilders thread ~::::

[LockJovi]

Just busted a rear axle so I'm looking for new wheels...Live in Colorado, 180 lbs and I don't race...looking to keep it around $500. What do the wheel builders recommend?

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Just busted a rear axle so I'm looking for new wheels...Live in Colorado, 180 lbs and I don't race...looking to keep it around $500. What do the wheel builders recommend?

Before anything, have to ask, how did you break an axle, and what wheel set was it? I'm extremely hard on my gear and have only bent an axle on a road bike, never broke. Also, do you have a history of breaking wheels?

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Just busted a rear axle so I'm looking for new wheels...Live in Colorado, 180 lbs and I don't race...looking to keep it around $500. What do the wheel builders recommend?

Where are ya?

PM sent.

 

[LockJovi]

Busy times with a newborn...They were Easton EA50's, not sure how it happened but when I took the skewer off the rear wheel the cassette and freehub came off along with part of the axle.

I ended up getting a set with HED C2's with DT Swiss 350 hubs, 28 front and 32 rear.

 

[Fenceline]

I built these wheels about 3 years and approx 35,000km ago, they have remained true and characteristics unchanged.

Open pro rims
Durace 7900 hubs
Frt 3x CX-ray brass nipples
Rear 3x CX-ray brass nipples

Recently a drive side spoke broke which brought up an issue that has bothered me form the beginning.
I used a Park Tool TM-1 tension meter, what reading should it have for a fully tensioned CX ray spoke?

 

[Bustedknuckle]

I built these wheels about 3 years and approx 35,000km ago, they have remained true and characteristics unchanged.

Open pro rims
Durace 7900 hubs
Frt 3x CX-ray brass nipples
Rear 3x CX-ray brass nipples

Recently a drive side spoke broke which brought up an issue that has bothered me form the beginning.
I used a Park Tool TM-1 tension meter, what reading should it have for a fully tensioned CX ray spoke?

100 kgf on the right side rear or front. Probably deformed the rim thru riding(bent) so the tension there is lower than 'ideal'..think metal coat hanger, back-forth, back-forth. Getting the tension proper at that point 'may' mean a flat spot there. And even then, if you break another spoke..time for a new rim..NOT new spokes.

PLUS unless you are a real lightweight, if you DO rebuild these, I'd recommend Sapim Race on drive side rear. Cx-rays 'can' be a might flexible, even at proper tension. They are pretty thin.

 

[Fenceline]

100 kgf was what I was aiming for, The guide that comes with the tension meter has readings for different types of spokes. When I measured the CXrays they did not exactly match any of the listed sizes, close but not exact. My question is what should the meter reading be?
I am 70kg, and spend my time riding up and down hills, generally any wheel failures have been due to worn braking surfaces.
On close inpection 2 of the spokes were bent, the break was where the bladed section begins at the hub end. Maybe I should not have lent them out.

 

[biker jk]

100 kgf was what I was aiming for, The guide that comes with the tension meter has readings for different types of spokes. When I measured the CXrays they did not exactly match any of the listed sizes, close but not exact. My question is what should the meter reading be?
I am 70kg, and spend my time riding up and down hills, generally any wheel failures have been due to worn braking surfaces.
On close inpection 2 of the spokes were bent, the break was where the bladed section begins at the hub end. Maybe I should not have lent them out.

For steel bladed spokes 0.9mm x 2.2mm (close enough to Sapim CX-Ray) the Park TM-1 should read between 12 (97kgf) and 13 (107kgf).

 

[King Boonen]

A general question, how easy is it to build a wheel that's better than a factory bought one and close to a specialist build? I don't mean better components, I mean better made and will last longer than a factory build.

I ask because I've always fancied doing it and with a new mountain bike on the way I thought about giving it a go. However, when I costed out a relatively low spec build I found it was going to cost me more to buy the parts than it was going to cost if I ordered the wheel from a wheel builder (Merlin Cycles, they have a very good reputation). I still fancy giving it a go, but only if I can get a wheel built that is close to what I'd get ordering it and learn some valuable skills along the way to help me maintain it.

What do you think? Am I better getting a professional to do it and learning general maintenance? Bear in mind that I probably won't build many, maybe a couple of sets for myself and some for friends, family etc.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

A general question, how easy is it to build a wheel that's better than a factory bought one and close to a specialist build? I don't mean better components, I mean better made and will last longer than a factory build.

I ask because I've always fancied doing it and with a new mountain bike on the way I thought about giving it a go. However, when I costed out a relatively low spec build I found it was going to cost me more to buy the parts than it was going to cost if I ordered the wheel from a wheel builder (Merlin Cycles, they have a very good reputation). I still fancy giving it a go, but only if I can get a wheel built that is close to what I'd get ordering it and learn some valuable skills along the way to help me maintain it.

What do you think? Am I better getting a professional to do it and learning general maintenance? Bear in mind that I probably won't build many, maybe a couple of sets for myself and some for friends, family etc.

Most of us 'wheelbuilders' started on our own wheel. I really enjoy building wheels, now 27 years on BUT getting the same components as somebody who would build your wheel..well, they have the skill to get those 4 variables correct at the same time. You probably don't, yet.

So even with the same stuff, hub, spokes, rim...your wheel probably won't have the reliability as the one made by somebody who has built a 'few'.

 

[JayKosta]

A general question, how easy is it to build a wheel that's better than a factory bought one and close to a specialist build? I don't mean better components, I mean better made and will last longer than a factory build.
...

-
With using all the same components, I'd expect a mass-produced factory wheel to perhaps be a little out-of-true to start with, and to go noticeably out-of-true sooner. If the fatory wheels had low or excessive spoke tension, that could cause other problems.

If you can do slow and precise DIY projects, then you can build a wheel.
What is your experience with 'truing' a wheel? Replacing a single spoke is usually easy, but have you ever had to adjust for up-down rim 'hop'?

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

 

[King Boonen]

Most of us 'wheelbuilders' started on our own wheel. I really enjoy building wheels, now 27 years on BUT getting the same components as somebody who would build your wheel..well, they have the skill to get those 4 variables correct at the same time. You probably don't, yet.

So even with the same stuff, hub, spokes, rim...your wheel probably won't have the reliability as the one made by somebody who has built a 'few'.

Ok, and considering the fact that the parts cost me more separately looks like it's not the best idea.

-
With using all the same components, I'd expect a mass-produced factory wheel to perhaps be a little out-of-true to start with, and to go noticeably out-of-true sooner. If the fatory wheels had low or excessive spoke tension, that could cause other problems.

If you can do slow and precise DIY projects, then you can build a wheel.
What is your experience with 'truing' a wheel? Replacing a single spoke is usually easy, but have you ever had to adjust for up-down rim 'hop'?

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

No experience, but I plan to learn to do it as I'm getting a mountain bike that I plan to use for what it was intended so the ability to sort out my wheels is something I'd like. I'm good at stuff like this, am fine with pretty much all general bike maintenance, have helped rebuild classic cars and my job involves fixing some very expensive bits of kit.

The wheels on the bike will be made in house at Merlin and they have a very good reputation, so it looks like I'm best just learning general maintenance then. Maybe in the future, after a while of learning to tune them up I'll give it a go.

How easy is it to do irreparable harm to a wheel?

 

[JayKosta]

...
No experience, but I plan to learn to do it as I'm getting a mountain bike that I plan to use for what it was intended so the ability to sort out my wheels is something I'd like. I'm good at stuff like this, am fine with pretty much all general bike maintenance, have helped rebuild classic cars and my job involves fixing some very expensive bits of kit.
...
How easy is it to do irreparable harm to a wheel?

-
A careful worker who knows the basic principles shouldn't cause any harm - it might get time-consuming, and frustrating, but that's the 'learning experience'. I won't suggest starting DIY building with super lightweight carbon parts, but aluminum hubs and rims would be fine.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

 

[hiero2]

. . .

How easy is it to do irreparable harm to a wheel?

Not all that easy. Oh, it's easy enough to kill a spoke or two, and, if you try hard, to spoil the spoke holes on a rim, but not all that easy.

As the knuckle said, though, also not that easy to build a top-quality wheel. A 1st time DIYer, reasonably careful, can do a yoeman's job of it. No permanent damage - it's not like laying tile, where the results require great effort to undo or redo and are not adjustable. It would be more like forgetting the wool packing around the crankshaft at the rear housing on a '63 Triumph (TR4) engine. Meaning, mostly nuisance value.

I overbuilt my 1st wheelset, with 3-cross 14g spokes. Also, aluminum rims, btw, I have zero experience with carbon, and I'm not going there. I don't think what I'm saying necessarily holds as true with carbon. But regardless, that first wheelset went thousands of miles before getting a rebuild. And the rims from that wheelset went probaby well over 10K before eventually failing around the spoke holes (fatigue and metal stress). They only got rebuilt because, by then, I had more experience, and could do my rims up a bit better from the get-go.

I still believe Brandt's "The Bicycle Wheel" is the best book on the topic. Basic buildup and truing is a musical enterprise - and optimum tension (with aluminum or steel rims) can be determined mechanically, WITHOUT a tensionometer, using practical techniques. Since the Brandt book uses some overtensioning as part of that technique, I do not think it would be practical with carbon rims. I could be wrong, I really don't know.

 

[richwagmn]

Most of us 'wheelbuilders' started on our own wheel. I really enjoy building wheels, now 27 years on BUT getting the same components as somebody who would build your wheel..well, they have the skill to get those 4 variables correct at the same time. You probably don't, yet.

So even with the same stuff, hub, spokes, rim...your wheel probably won't have the reliability as the one made by somebody who has built a 'few'.

So what are the mistakes that beginning wheel builders make that cause the wheel to be less reliable?

 

[hiero2]

So what are the mistakes that beginning wheel builders make that cause the wheel to be less reliable?

Choosing less than optimal components - not getting the spoke tension correct all the way around - undertensioning some - overtensioning others.

Now - you will note - a few post earlier - the knuckle gives a particular spoke tension for a given rim, in response to a question. Unless the rim manufacturers have improved the rims astronomically in the last 10 years (that was the last time I bought new rims to build up) - using one tension all the way around will not give you a properly true wheel - nor the strongest wheel. But you don't get all that from reading that post, eh? Rims have deviance from round - and they have a join spot where the characteristics are different. Got to accomodate that with the spoke tension. Experience helps you do that better.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

So what are the mistakes that beginning wheel builders make that cause the wheel to be less reliable?

Poor design, choice of components. 3 strikes you are out-light rim, thin spokes, not enough spokes. Add goofy lacings that do nuthin..1 cross NDS with CxRays, blue alloy nipps, 3 cross drive side using alternating CX-ray and Lazers, with 1/3 being Race spokes..type thing.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Choosing less than optimal components - not getting the spoke tension correct all the way around - undertensioning some - overtensioning others.

Now - you will note - a few post earlier - the knuckle gives a particular spoke tension for a given rim, in response to a question. Unless the rim manufacturers have improved the rims astronomically in the last 10 years (that was the last time I bought new rims to build up) - using one tension all the way around will not give you a properly true wheel - nor the strongest wheel. But you don't get all that from reading that post, eh? Rims have deviance from round - and they have a join spot where the characteristics are different. Got to accomodate that with the spoke tension. Experience helps you do that better.

100 KGF is the target. In actual building, the tension is more of a range..plus or minus about 10 KGF..yes, rims are not consistent when new but some are much better than others. DT are spectacular, roundest and flattest I have ever seen(in 28 years of building)...Mavic, not bad, H+Son, just OK..Velocity getting better.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Thanks for the info on the wheelset guys, might have to give those Campy rims a looksy. Also, considering bumping up what I can spend on a set, to about $1K, does that make much of a difference?

 

[hiero2]

Thanks for the info on the wheelset guys, might have to give those Campy rims a looksy. Also, considering bumping up what I can spend on a set, to about $1K, does that make much of a difference?

More money sometimes = more quality. When it isn't just name brand recognition value. Check out the prices on the rim labels the bustedknuckle just mentioned. It sounds like DT has done their homework!

Also keep in mind that more money, while getting you more quality, also has a decreasing return curve. In plain English - that means for x dollars, you get a certain level of performance. For 2x dollars, you don't get twice the performance, but you can get better performance. For 3x dollars, the performance increase will be even smaller, but still an improvement.

 

[Dermie]

Which wheels?

I posted this in general but I think it should be here.

This has probably been done before!!
I am setting up a new bike, Dean Ultralite sloping frame, campag super record & I need a set of wheels. I have had great service for the last 9 yrs from a pair of campag neutrons. They are about 1450g, not super light but like I said they appear to be bombproof, i.e. I have no qualms about jumping kerbs, riding off kerbs etc & they are still as straight as the day I bought them.
Is there a wheel as tough but just a bit lighter??? I am leaning towards the campag shamal what does anyone think or know about them.

I have built a back wheel before & it is still ok, I wonder if I could build a wheel that is as strong and lighter than a campag neutron or shamal at a reasonable cost???

 

[Bustedknuckle]

I posted this in general but I think it should be here.

This has probably been done before!!
I am setting up a new bike, Dean Ultralite sloping frame, campag super record & I need a set of wheels. I have had great service for the last 9 yrs from a pair of campag neutrons. They are about 1450g, not super light but like I said they appear to be bombproof, i.e. I have no qualms about jumping kerbs, riding off kerbs etc & they are still as straight as the day I bought them.
Is there a wheel as tough but just a bit lighter??? I am leaning towards the campag shamal what does anyone think or know about them.

I have built a back wheel before & it is still ok, I wonder if I could build a wheel that is as strong and lighter than a campag neutron or shamal at a reasonable cost???

If you want to make that leap to lighter, really lighter but still reliable it means

-carbon
-tubular

Enve, Reynolds based around DT hubs..many used...

besides, clinchers are for nancys.

 

[Dermie]

Yes I almost would, but braking, and braking in the wet, braking on long descents.
My new frame (Dean superlite) will be set up with disc tabs on the rear so that when Campag get a set of disc gear/brake levers I will be going full hydraulic disc (with a new disc compatible fork aswell).
I think thats may be 2 - 3 yrs away & then lighter wheels may come by way of the route you are suggesting (but tubeless maybe) & with out the need for thicker walls for braking.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Yes I almost would, but braking, and braking in the wet, braking on long descents.
My new frame (Dean superlite) will be set up with disc tabs on the rear so that when Campag get a set of disc gear/brake levers I will be going full hydraulic disc (with a new disc compatible fork aswell).
I think thats may be 2 - 3 yrs away & then lighter wheels may come by way of the route you are suggesting (but tubeless maybe) & with out the need for thicker walls for braking.

There's not much weight savings minus a reinforced brake wall, even if you shave off the extra material from an aluminum rim you're only going to get about 12g, even less from carbon. While I do agree with bustedknuckle that tubulars are the best and lightest race set up, they're just not a reality for most, and counting grams to this level is a waste of time and money for the average rider.

 

[Dermie]

If you want to make that leap to lighter, really lighter but still reliable it means

-carbon
-tubular

Enve, Reynolds based around DT hubs..many used...

besides, clinchers are for nancys.

You are right about all of that but tubs are just too inconvenient for day to day use, and at 61 I will go with the clincher and Nancy tag, probably just an Old nancy boy.