::::~ Wheelbuilders thread ~::::

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Hi all. I'm thinking about a climbing wheelset of around 1250 grams. I weigh 68.5kg or almost 151 lbs. I've looked at Stans Alpha 340 (I believe the new version is heavier but has addressed the earlier models shortcomings) and Kinlin XR-200 for the rims. No interest in carbon rims. Hubs I'm considering are Tune (MIG70 and MIG170) and Alchemy. Thinking Sapim CX-Ray's for spokes. Any suggestions on a preferred build (rims, hubs, spoke lacing, nipples)?

A real climb specific wheel set shouldn't be clinchers, go tubular. Velocity Escape, Ambrosio F20. Funny that you mention Tune and Alchemy in the same breath. Jeremy the man behind Alchemy used to build with Tune before he designed the Alchemy set. Dimensionally the Alchemy hubs are superior to most everything out there, gram differences at the hub mean nothing. Don't be overly concerned about counting grams, this isn't weight weenies. I know a 55 year old guy who can out climb most everybody on a steel bike with 36h wheels, so equipment means nothing. This stuff is just toys, it's the ad men that make you want to believe it's anything more than that.

Alchemy ELF/ORC, Ambrosio F20's, 28h/3x ds, radial or 1x heads in nds, radial or 1x heads out front, Sapim CX-Rays, alloy nips. Stiff as all get out, and light enough.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

===================================================
Building your own wheels can be 'rewarding' because of 'having done it', and a stand isn't a necessity - it just puts the wheel in a more convenient and comfortable location.
BUT... getting a wheel to run true with good even spoke tension all around can be very finicky and time consuming for a 1st time DIYer.
The tough part is getting the rim true in BOTH directions - side-to-side, AND up-down. Replacing a single broken spoke is easy because only the side-to-side needs attention.
It would be a good off-season project, but not one if you need the wheels in a few days....

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

In over 20 years of dealing with primarily the bicycle wheel I can't say I ever had a wheel with a broken spoke that didn't need both horizontal and vertical truing, and a re-tension. Must be nice and easy in your world...

A word of advice to all that want to DIY their wheels; probably not a good idea to start out with a 600 bucks worth of hubs, and another 400 of rims and spokes. Start cheap, really cheap, because a wheel that isn't built properly from the beginning will never be, no matter who tries to correct your mistakes.

 

[richwagmn]

A real climb specific wheel set shouldn't be clinchers, go tubular. Velocity Escape, Ambrosio F20. Funny that you mention Tune and Alchemy in the same breath. Jeremy the man behind Alchemy used to build with Tune before he designed the Alchemy set. Dimensionally the Alchemy hubs are superior to most everything out there, gram differences at the hub mean nothing. Don't be overly concerned about counting grams, this isn't weight weenies. I know a 55 year old guy who can out climb most everybody on a steel bike with 36h wheels, so equipment means nothing. This stuff is just toys, it's the ad men that make you want to believe it's anything more than that.

Alchemy ELF/ORC, Ambrosio F20's, 28h/3x ds, radial or 1x heads in nds, radial or 1x heads out front, Sapim CX-Rays, alloy nips. Stiff as all get out, and light enough.

Did you say alloy nips? I almost fell out of my chair.

 

[El Oso]

Thanks for the advise!

How does the overall durability and bearing quality of the Velocity's compare with the Ultegra and DT 350s? I can't find too much on the Velocity hubs while Shimano and DT seem to be amongst the benchmarks.




Beer and ice cream are a great reward for a good ride. I can think of times where they have brought me back to life

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Thanks for the advise!

How does the overall durability and bearing quality of the Velocity's compare with the Ultegra and DT 350s? I can't find too much on the Velocity hubs while Shimano and DT seem to be amongst the benchmarks.




Beer and ice cream are a great reward for a good ride. I can think of times where they have brought me back to life

Velocity hubs made by Formula and good enough..for not a lot of $.

Best of those mentioned is the Ultegra..great hubs...DT350 essentially a DT240, asian produced, heavier hub shell but the innards are the same as a DT240 for lots less $. Good hubs.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

A real climb specific wheel set shouldn't be clinchers, go tubular. Velocity Escape, Ambrosio F20. Funny that you mention Tune and Alchemy in the same breath. Jeremy the man behind Alchemy used to build with Tune before he designed the Alchemy set. Dimensionally the Alchemy hubs are superior to most everything out there, gram differences at the hub mean nothing. Don't be overly concerned about counting grams, this isn't weight weenies. I know a 55 year old guy who can out climb most everybody on a steel bike with 36h wheels, so equipment means nothing. This stuff is just toys, it's the ad men that make you want to believe it's anything more than that.

Alchemy ELF/ORC, Ambrosio F20's, 28h/3x ds, radial or 1x heads in nds, radial or 1x heads out front, Sapim CX-Rays, alloy nips. Stiff as all get out, and light enough.

Or 32 hole, 3 cross all around, brass nipps using DT Comp spokes. Stiff as all get out and light as well.

As you mentioned, "I know a 55 year old guy who can out climb most everybody on a steel bike with 36h wheels, so equipment means nothing."

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Did you say alloy nips? I almost fell out of my chair.

Good memory richwagmn! Last year I declared no more alloy nips because so many people were requesting them for everyday wheels and I had to put my foot down and say "NO"! I never stopped building with them for race and special purpose sets, alloy rims with eyelets and carbon only. I still will NOT use alloy nipples on non-eyeletted alloy rims because of the risk of chemical welding. The vast majority of my builds are everyday sets with A23's and use brass only on those.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Alchemy ELF/28h1x/Sapim Race

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Alchemy ORC/32h/3xds/1x heads in nds

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

So, who of all of the premium hub mfg's are going to be first to do a 135mm rear spaced/disk brake/Campy 11s compatible? Conversions don't count, Formula, Joy/Novatec doesn't count, they are not "premium" hub mfg's. Is there one on the market from some obscure company that I haven't seen? Know something the rest of us don't?...Let's hear it!

 

[runninboy]

Start cheap, really cheap, because a wheel that isn't built properly from the beginning will never be, no matter who tries to correct your mistakes.

I really respect your expertise, and i know what you are trying to say but I have raced & trained on wheels that i have built myself and then had the local builders fix. I have been using the same two or three builders for the past 20 years, the wheels ride great my spoke breakage runs about 1 spoke every three years max. most of the wheelsets (after the initial break-in retension) have never been trued. I run almost exclusively 3 cross 32 front & rear 14g. Most of my equipment would be vintage 8 speed record, Sachs, Mavic 501. Some freewheel some cassette. Mostly tubular, Have quite a few Sigma hardox wheelsets. Even some old team equipment from the early 90's. Whether it is the durability of the equipment or the skills of the builders here, my stuff rides great and lasts forever. I think your response might have been a little dramatic.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

I really respect your expertise, and i know what you are trying to say but I have raced & trained on wheels that i have built myself and then had the local builders fix. I have been using the same two or three builders for the past 20 years, the wheels ride great my spoke breakage runs about 1 spoke every three years max. most of the wheelsets (after the initial break-in retension) have never been trued. I run almost exclusively 3 cross 32 front & rear 14g. Most of my equipment would be vintage 8 speed record, Sachs, Mavic 501. Some freewheel some cassette. Mostly tubular, Have quite a few Sigma hardox wheelsets. Even some old team equipment from the early 90's. Whether it is the durability of the equipment or the skills of the builders here, my stuff rides great and lasts forever. I think your response might have been a little dramatic.

Well, hmm [scratching head]. With all due respect runninboy, if you're breaking a spoke every 3 years, how do you consider that to be a wheel set that "rides great", and "lasts forever"? Doesn't add up! Either you're not building correctly, you're too heavy for 32h, or your trusted mechanics suck and they're just humoring you. Spoke breakage in three seasons is not what I consider to be even satisfactory! God, 3 years? I mean WTF?!? Are you using 20 year old Stella spokes too?!?!?!?

Ok, so you've been doing it this way for so long, how does my comment remotely involve you? I was referring to newb wheel builders wanting to use insanely expensive premium parts to learn on. Not a good idea! I stand by what I said, anybody who actually read the whole conversation would understand this.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

I really respect your expertise, and i know what you are trying to say but I have raced & trained on wheels that i have built myself and then had the local builders fix. I have been using the same two or three builders for the past 20 years, the wheels ride great my spoke breakage runs about 1 spoke every three years max. most of the wheelsets (after the initial break-in retension) have never been trued. I run almost exclusively 3 cross 32 front & rear 14g. Most of my equipment would be vintage 8 speed record, Sachs, Mavic 501. Some freewheel some cassette. Mostly tubular, Have quite a few Sigma hardox wheelsets. Even some old team equipment from the early 90's. Whether it is the durability of the equipment or the skills of the builders here, my stuff rides great and lasts forever. I think your response might have been a little dramatic.

"most of the wheelsets (after the initial break-in retension) have never been trued."

This speaks volumes, IMHO. I laud you for building your own wheels. How most of us started out BUT a well built wheel, properly tensioned, true, round, dished and stress relieved, then ridden, doesn't need to be broke in and retensioned.

Plus, try double butted spokes...makes for a more durable wheel.

 

[runninboy]

Well, hmm [scratching head]. With all due respect runninboy, if you're breaking a spoke every 3 years, how do you consider that to be a wheel set that "rides great", and "lasts forever"? Doesn't add up! Either you're not building correctly, you're too heavy for 32h, or your trusted mechanics suck and they're just humoring you. Spoke breakage in three seasons is not what I consider to be even satisfactory! God, 3 years? I mean WTF?!? Are you using 20 year old Stella spokes too?!?!?!?

Ok, so you've been doing it this way for so long, how does my comment remotely involve you? I was referring to newb wheel builders wanting to use insanely expensive premium parts to learn on. Not a good idea! I stand by what I said, anybody who actually read the whole conversation would understand this.

First of all my total of spoke breakage is an average. For instance i could not remember breaking any spokes before my last 2 which happened 6 years ago. You want to know how that happened? I had a double tubular flat and had to ride 40 miles on two flat tires out in the country. Long story but i fixed the flats when i got home but broke two spokes in a race the day after that. So because i break spokes so infrequently i erred on the side of 2 every six years. If i really think about it it would be far less. Maybe 5 since 1986? And i did read the whole conversation kind of rude to say i did not.
And how does your comment involve me? Well lets see someone asked if it was possible to take a wheel that they messed up to a LBS, i related that i had done it. Plenty of times. And then you said that no wheel could ever be built properly once it had been built improperly. Contradicting my experience.
See how that works? I don't doubt your expertise but now insulting me by implying i have not read the conversation, that i break spokes frequently and my mechanics suck among other things. I have twenty year old wheels that have never broken a spoke . Despite having ridden them in training over rough roads gravel, single track (Sorry long ago i took George Mounts advice and like to periodically ride my road bike off road)
And as far as truing, most of the time i had never had to have them trued even during the break in period. But sometimes things happen.
I thought this was a thread where people share their experiences I appreciate busted knuckle's constructive advice for instance. The only spokes i have broken were double butted. Since i went straight gauge on the advice of a builder about a decade ago no broken spokes.
Those two breaks were double butted on wheels from 1994.
anyway i have found most of this thread to be very informative. thanks for that.

 

[runninboy]

"most of the wheelsets (after the initial break-in retension) have never been trued."

This speaks volumes, IMHO. I laud you for building your own wheels. How most of us started out BUT a well built wheel, properly tensioned, true, round, dished and stress relieved, then ridden, doesn't need to be broke in and retensioned.

Plus, try double butted spokes...makes for a more durable wheel.

Yup you are right. I also wrote it wrong. Some of my builds were not so good, when the local builder fixed them , they had to be retensioned. Most of the time they were not trued even during the first ride or two. But any problems usually came during that break in period. Considering I am not hand picking anything and buying someone elses used wheel, problems are bound to arise. Thanks for the constructive advice it is appreciated.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Thanks for finally getting your story straight! You know a lot of confusion could be avoided if you get it right the first time, every aspect of your argument just did a 180. In the post you deleted you said "5 breaks since '86", when you were telling me that 1 every three years was somehow supposed to be normal. Now you're telling us that your builds are pretty much scratch and need to be finished off. C'mon runninboy, being clear helps, just saying.

Wheels not built correctly from the beginning will never be as good as they could. Same scenario happens at the shops when they unbox wheels from the factory which come with uneven everything. These could be decent wheels, but they're only as good as the person took the time to correct the mistakes, even then they're still not as good as they could have been in the right hands from the beginning of the build. Wheel building doesn't work that way, sorry.

 

[runninboy]

Thanks for finally getting your story straight! You know a lot of confusion could be avoided if you get it right the first time, every aspect of your argument just did a 180. In the post you deleted you said "5 breaks since '86", when you were telling me that 1 every three years was somehow supposed to be normal. Now you're telling us that your builds are pretty much scratch and need to be finished off. C'mon runninboy, being clear helps, just saying.

Wheels not built correctly from the beginning will never be as good as they could. Same scenario happens at the shops when they unbox wheels from the factory which come with uneven everything. These could be decent wheels, but they're only as good as the person took the time to correct the mistakes, even then they're still not as good as they could have been in the right hands from the beginning of the build. Wheel building doesn't work that way, sorry.

Ok sorry i made some typos. the reason i deleted the post was because it was getting so long winded and i am not a great typist. I also did not want to be *****y. You want be to be clear I will try. I did not say my builds are completely from scratch. Some are some are not. Sometimes i do a crappy job and the builder basically breaks it down has to retension and fixes it for me. When he does, it works great. There is no substitute for expertise. We are talking about different wheels over 25 years or so so i am sorry if things do not seem so precise.
Now you belittled me about the spokes. Many times in my life i have been short on cash. Most all of my wheels have been built with used spokes, the cardinal sin. But i was piecing together bikes and wheels. I ride old equipment but i take care of it. My bike is always clean & in good order. A friend of mine who built some of my wheels was a TDF mech and he taught me how to take are of my stuff. I broke two spokes after a ride where i got trapped on two flat tubbies. I had to ride almost 3 1/2 hours on flat tires including some gravel stretches. That would kill spokes on any wheel. I had to replace two. That was 6 years ago. Wheels worked fine, race fine. Before that thinking back about 5 others broken. Not bad for used spokes. Also my replacements have been used. So i ride including commutes around 10-15 thousand miles year. Even if i did break a spoke every three years that is one every 30 thousand miles. Since you still chastise me about the accuracy of the story forget what i wrote lets go back to worse case scenario. 1 every 3 years. * spokes used since the mid 80's i still have all the wheels, when i replace a spoke the wheels work fine, usually need very little truing. So lets go onthe low estimate of mileage. a quarter of a million miles and i have broken 8 spokes. Yes that is source of ridicule. You are absolutely right, how dare i comment!
In closing i would just like to say that people with attitudes like that end up turning alot of people away from cycling. I was a runner. My fellow runners tell me how expensive it is to cycle, thousand for a bike etc etc. While yes my situation has been less than ideal. having to purchase used equipment and make it work i at least had the joy of cycling in my life. I pity all the people who look at what is said and who then think they need to spend large amounts of cash in order to be able to ride or race and decide against it.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Ok, so you make due with what's in your budget and make it work. I get that. The original reason you chimed in. What you've been doing for all this time is building a mediocre wheel and then having your mistakes fixed, and it's worked well for you, I get it, don't doubt it. BUT, this is not learning how to build wheels properly, especially with much higher price tags on the parts which was an important point of the discussion. I'd rather have people learn how to build with cheaper equipment. Attempting your first wheel build with a grand worth of parts is NOT recommend. Yes, it can be fixed, but just not worth it. I have to ask, you obviously know how to get to let's say 75% of a wheel, in all these years you couldn't figure out the remaining 25%? What's the hold up?

In response to your closing point, I've done more ambassadorship and volunteerism for the sport than most people combined, including working with youth, and raising money for the underprivileged that want to race bikes. So please, you already admitted to not being a great communicator, don't blame me for being curt with you when it takes multiple posts to get proper info out of you. Not my fault.

Ok sorry i made some typos. the reason i deleted the post was because it was getting so long winded and i am not a great typist. I also did not want to be *****y. You want be to be clear I will try. I did not say my builds are completely from scratch. Some are some are not. Sometimes i do a crappy job and the builder basically breaks it down has to retension and fixes it for me. When he does, it works great. There is no substitute for expertise. We are talking about different wheels over 25 years or so so i am sorry if things do not seem so precise.
Now you belittled me about the spokes. Many times in my life i have been short on cash. Most all of my wheels have been built with used spokes, the cardinal sin. But i was piecing together bikes and wheels. I ride old equipment but i take care of it. My bike is always clean & in good order. A friend of mine who built some of my wheels was a TDF mech and he taught me how to take are of my stuff. I broke two spokes after a ride where i got trapped on two flat tubbies. I had to ride almost 3 1/2 hours on flat tires including some gravel stretches. That would kill spokes on any wheel. I had to replace two. That was 6 years ago. Wheels worked fine, race fine. Before that thinking back about 5 others broken. Not bad for used spokes. Also my replacements have been used. So i ride including commutes around 10-15 thousand miles year. Even if i did break a spoke every three years that is one every 30 thousand miles. Since you still chastise me about the accuracy of the story forget what i wrote lets go back to worse case scenario. 1 every 3 years. * spokes used since the mid 80's i still have all the wheels, when i replace a spoke the wheels work fine, usually need very little truing. So lets go onthe low estimate of mileage. a quarter of a million miles and i have broken 8 spokes. Yes that is source of ridicule. You are absolutely right, how dare i comment!
In closing i would just like to say that people with attitudes like that end up turning alot of people away from cycling. I was a runner. My fellow runners tell me how expensive it is to cycle, thousand for a bike etc etc. While yes my situation has been less than ideal. having to purchase used equipment and make it work i at least had the joy of cycling in my life. I pity all the people who look at what is said and who then think they need to spend large amounts of cash in order to be able to ride or race and decide against it.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

....28h front/1x heads out, 32h rear 3Xds/1X heads in nds...

Was that lacing requested by the customer? And if yes, love to know why.

My design for the customer. What's the problem? Lay it on me. Can't think outside the 32h3x answer box for everybody? C'mon now Bustedknucle, it's pick on Giuseppe on the forum lately, join in, it's great fun!

 

[Bustedknuckle]

My design for the customer. What's the problem? Lay it on me. Can't think outside the 32h3x answer box for everybody? C'mon now Bustedknucle, it's pick on Giuseppe on the forum lately, join in, it's great fun!

Relax. No 'problem', it's just a bicycle wheel. It's your wheel, your customer....... this IS a discussion group, right?

Discuss among wheelbuilders and some of the peanut gallery watching 'might' learn something.

Is the LH rear and front lacing for performance, cuz the customer asked or for?

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Relax. No 'problem', it's just a bicycle wheel. It's your wheel, your customer....... this IS a discussion group, right?

Discuss among wheelbuilders and some of the peanut gallery watching 'might' learn something.

Is the LH rear and front lacing for performance, cuz the customer asked or for?

No, my design. The front and NDS were laced this way to eek out every last bit of lateral stiffness as this customer is a big gun hill repeater. These are also tubulars btw. I laced the front 1x heads out because the Alchemey ELF has the widest flange spacing in the industry, no need to overshoot bracing angles on that one. Same with the rear ORC, heads in adds about another 2.5 to 3 degrees to the bracing angle on the NDS. May not sound like much, but little gains at the hub make a big difference. Alchemy hubs already build up a stout and stiff wheel set, I just made it über stiff.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

No, my design. The front and NDS were laced this way to eek out every last bit of lateral stiffness as this customer is a big gun hill repeater. These are also tubulars btw. I laced the front 1x heads out because the Alchemey ELF has the widest flange spacing in the industry, no need to overshoot bracing angles on that one. Same with the rear ORC, heads in adds about another 2.5 to 3 degrees to the bracing angle on the NDS. May not sound like much, but little gains at the hub make a big difference. Alchemy hubs already build up a stout and stiff wheel set, I just made it über stiff.

Tie and solder them...

see, good description.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Tie and solder them...

see, good description.

I would with some other hub/rim combo, but not this one. The Alchemy hubs alone make for one of the stiffest builds, and the rims are 25mm deep alloy. Combine that with the lacing pattern I used and you have an extremely stiff, and super responsive wheel set. T&S would be major overkill.

 

[M Sport]

I would with some other hub/rim combo, but not this one. The Alchemy hubs alone make for one of the stiffest builds, and the rims are 25mm deep alloy. Combine that with the lacing pattern I used and you have an extremely stiff, and super responsive wheel set. T&S would be major overkill.

What brand rims? Nice wheels btw.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

What brand rims? Nice wheels btw.

The rims are KinLin TB-25's, and thank you!

I know this customer watches the forum quite intently, so RPH, your weels will finally be on their way Monday. This particular set has been a talking point between myself and many of my colleagues, in the real world, off the forum, so praise the Lord baby Jesus for patient customers!