::::~ Wheelbuilders thread ~::::

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

And the currect Record hubs. True about in the frame but if you are just building the wheel...I gots lotsa bikes around but sometimes all you have is the truing stand. P&K and Centrimaster are very nice but yowser, lotsa $, and no dials for me grazie. Makes you crazy. No modern rims aren't made accurately enough to warrant dials, IMHO. Eyeballs work fine.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/P-K-Lie-truing-stand-/280819970607

http://www.centrimaster.de/en/shop/truingstand/classic.html

Light rims like Kinlin or so 'wavy', some of the lighter ones make using dials almost unworkable. Samo for non machined sidewall rims, like the old NOS, Campag rims I have in my garage.

I've used both the Park dials and the P&K, totally different animals. The Park dials only work when you're close to final true, otherwise the dial swings wildly all over the place. The P&K gauges work right when you put the wheel in the stand no matter how untrue it may be.

Germans sure know how to make precision measuring equipment, no doubt about that.

Take a look..http://www.pklie.de/Homepage.mov

P&K gauge on the left, not a Park on the right, but it has the same resolution as the Park gauges.

I can see how most bike shops wouldn't benefit from dropping this much loot on a truing stand, they are big money, especially the P&K. I did get a chance to try that P&K at a shop in Mpls right before I moved to CO and I finished my wheel quite a bit faster than normal, which was really shocking because I generally try to build slower than a shop mechanic, on purpose.

I'm ready to move on to better tools of the trade, and since I have a specialty I don't have a problem buying special tools. New tools are freaking cool!!!!

 

[Bustedknuckle]

I've used both the Park dials and the P&K, totally different animals. The Park dials only work when you're close to final true, otherwise the dial swings wildly all over the place. The P&K gauges work right when you put the wheel in the stand no matter how untrue it may be.

Germans sure know how to make precision measuring equipment, no doubt about that.

Take a look..http://www.pklie.de/Homepage.mov

P&K gauge on the left, not a Park on the right, but it has the same resolution as the Park gauges.

I can see how most bike shops wouldn't benefit from dropping this much loot on a truing stand, they are big money, especially the P&K. I did get a chance to try that P&K at a shop in Mpls right before I moved to CO and I finished my wheel quite a bit faster than normal, which was really shocking because I generally try to build slower than a shop mechanic, on purpose.

I'm ready to move on to better tools of the trade, and since I have a specialty I don't have a problem buying special tools. New tools are freaking cool!!!!

Not the $ but the dials, w/o trying to beat this horse too much. If they made a parallel armed truing stand, stiff, ala the TS-3, but with simple, stiff rim guides, not dials, I'd be all over that.

I saw Gerd Schraner himself(DT wheel building master, author of the Art of Wheelbuilding) at interbike, build a wheel in a jig that looked like he built himself, very basic, in about 15 minutes and I'll bet that wheel is still running strong.

Some 'shop mechanics' build a lot of wheels, and do so quite well, even w/o dials. Some shops, who sell just 70 or so custom bikes, also build over 400 wheels per year and have for over 12 years(sound familiar?).

Most 'shop mechanics', even in shops in the republic, couldn't build a wheel if their job depended on it(it doesan't, they just take that POS outta the box and hand it to the customer).

There are maybe 5 guys in Boulder, who work in shops, that can build decent wheels, 2 are in my shop.

BUT back to the stand, yep, a TS-3 type, with the same or similar trueness, roundness 'guides, would be great.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

My first truing stand was an old Basso fork in a vice with my dad's various probe and feeler dial gauges retrofitted to it. I'm the son of a Hungarian engineer, nerd is in my blood. I reserve the right to totally geek out on wheels.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

My first truing stand was an old Basso fork in a vice with my dad's various probe and feeler dial gauges retrofitted to it. I'm the son of a Hungarian engineer, nerd is in my blood. I reserve the right to totally geek out on wheels.

I uderstand that but again, I wish these big boys truing stand makers made really stiff, parallel armed, accurate truing stands w/o the dials.

Also wish I could find a Morizumi spoke threader for less than $2500....

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

I uderstand that but again, I wish these big boys truing stand makers made really stiff, parallel armed, accurate truing stands w/o the dials.

Also wish I could find a Morizumi spoke threader for less than $2500....

What about the Hozan?

 

[Bustedknuckle]

What about the Hozan?

That's not really any different than the TS-2 I have..

Nothing wrong with the TS-2 except the arms pivot at the bottom instead of moving parallel in and out, altho that's not essential. It's stiff, reliable, stays in dish...

 

[Benotti69]

A quick question.

Why dont they tie and solder spokes anymore?

Or do you wheel builders still do it?

Is there any great advantage/disadvantage?

 

[Bustedknuckle]

A quick question.

Why dont they tie and solder spokes anymore?

Or do you wheel builders still do it?

Is there any great advantage/disadvantage?

I do it all the time.

On the rear wheel, left tension is lower than right. If the RH tension is proper, no big deal BUT if you bend a rim a wee bit, tension gets lower at that spot and the LH spoke 'may' break because of spoke movement at the hub..think metal hanger, back-forth-back-forth--T&S reduces spoke movement at the hub flange in that case to almost zero, 'fixing' above problem.

I also do it on lots of MTB disc wheel builds and track wheels...some wheel for larger riders, like me....

Any decent wheelbuilder should know how to do it.

 

[Barracuda]

My first truing stand was an old Basso fork in a vice with my dad's various probe and feeler dial gauges retrofitted to it. I'm the son of a Hungarian engineer, nerd is in my blood. I reserve the right to totally geek out on wheels.

I have a 2012 Fuji SST 2.0 and with it came Ovals 330 wheel set. To me, the wheels feel "sluggish" if that makes sense and have already had them back to the LBS to get rear bearing replaced as had been tightened to much from factory apparently .....

Whats your opinion on them as a "standard wheelset" for a weekend warrior like myself.

 

[42x16ss]

I have a 2012 Fuji SST 2.0 and with it came Ovals 330 wheel set. To me, the wheels feel "sluggish" if that makes sense and have already had them back to the LBS to get rear bearing replaced as had been tightened to much from factory apparently .....

Whats your opinion on them as a "standard wheelset" for a weekend warrior like myself.

Probably not the greatest. The spoke count is only 24/20, don't know about the hubs. You'd probably be better off with Velocity Deep V's or similar and Ultegra/105 hubs for a good, fast everyday wheelset.

I've built a few pairs for friends that have destroyed their basic entry level Mavic/Shimano/Alex low spoke count wheels on their bikes. All are surprised at the difference...

 

[JayKosta]

I have a 2012 Fuji SST 2.0 and with it came Ovals 330 wheel set.
...
Whats your opinion on them as a "standard wheelset" for a weekend warrior like myself.

=====================================================
For training and recreational riding, dependable wheels and tires are best.
And that usually means that they are heavier than for 'race'.

If you do not have problems with the wheels / spokes / tires, then just make sure the bearings are lubed and adjusted so the wheels spin without binding, and that they are not 'loose' on the axles.

For competitive events, having light but dependable wheels is important, but 'dependable' is still more important than 'light'.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

I have a 2012 Fuji SST 2.0 and with it came Ovals 330 wheel set. To me, the wheels feel "sluggish" if that makes sense and have already had them back to the LBS to get rear bearing replaced as had been tightened to much from factory apparently .....

Whats your opinion on them as a "standard wheelset" for a weekend warrior like myself.

"sluggish" is the most common complaint with factory wheels. The biggest determining factor is your weight vs. what the wheels can handle. If you upped your spoke count to 28 or 32h rear, and 24 or 28h front with a new set you add a lot of durability at minimum weight penalty. Spokes are only about 6g a piece. Velocity deep V's or KinLin XR 300's would be the closest rim replacement, and some nice hubs, whatever your wallet allows.

 

[Benotti69]

I do it all the time.

On the rear wheel, left tension is lower than right. If the RH tension is proper, no big deal BUT if you bend a rim a wee bit, tension gets lower at that spot and the LH spoke 'may' break because of spoke movement at the hub..think metal hanger, back-forth-back-forth--T&S reduces spoke movement at the hub flange in that case to almost zero, 'fixing' above problem.

I also do it on lots of MTB disc wheel builds and track wheels...some wheel for larger riders, like me....

Any decent wheelbuilder should know how to do it.

Ta for the reply.

 

[42x16ss]

"sluggish" is the most common complaint with factory wheels. The biggest determining factor is your weight vs. what the wheels can handle. If you upped your spoke count to 28 or 32h rear, and 24 or 28h front with a new set you add a lot of durability at minimum weight penalty. Spokes are only about 6g a piece. Velocity deep V's or KinLin XR 300's would be the closest rim replacement, and some nice hubs, whatever your wallet allows.

I've never built with Kinlin rims before, heard some good things though (cheap and cheery). How do they compare to Velocity for building and maintenance?

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

I've never built with Kinlin rims before, heard some good things though (cheap and cheery). How do they compare to Velocity for building and maintenance?

Performance/bang for $. Lighter and just as, or if not stronger than Velocity. QC is still not on par with Velocity though. I'm in a fortunate position where I can cherry pick from hundreds.

 

[TexPat]

Performance/bang for $. Lighter and just as, or if not stronger than Velocity. QC is still not on par with Velocity though. I'm in a fortunate position where I can cherry pick from hundreds.

Not at all impressed by the Kinlin stuff, but no doubt that it's cheap. Perhaps if I could go through a few dozen in order to find a pair of good ones, I might change my mind---but who the hell wants to do that?

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Not at all impressed by the Kinlin stuff, but no doubt that it's cheap. Perhaps if I could go through a few dozen in order to find a pair of good ones, I might change my mind---but who the hell wants to do that?

Few dozen is pushing it. At most I've sifted through 3 to 5 to get a nice one that is up to my standards, which is pretty high. Just built a set of TB-25's on Alchemy hubs, built up just great. 28h front/1X/heads out, 32h rear 3Xds/1X heads in nds... Pictures to follow, tomorrow maybe.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Few dozen is pushing it. At most I've sifted through 3 to 5 to get a nice one that is up to my standards, which is pretty high. Just built a set of TB-25's on Alchemy hubs, built up just great. 28h front/1X/heads out, 32h rear 3Xds/1X heads in nds... Pictures to follow, tomorrow maybe.

Was that lacing requested by the customer? And if yes, love to know why.

 

[Elagabalus]

Agreed, threaded end caps would make more sense. This is actually how the old Chorus hub works. It has threaded lock nuts and the NDS lock nut has a set screw. I found a preload method with White Ind. hubs that works pretty well. After the build is complete I just put the rear wheel in a frame and adjust preload by tightening the skewer and and then the set screw. Ideally this should be done in the truing stand, but Park stands do not hold the axle flush. You'd need a P&K or Centrimaster to be able to properly adjust preload. Which is where I'm headed next. The Park stands have served me well for many years, but I think it's time to upgrade.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/P-K-Lie-truing-stand-/280819970607

http://www.centrimaster.de/en/shop/truingstand/classic.html

Just some random musings

Judging from pictures above, it looks like you'll still have to use your skewer trick to adjust the preload even on the P&K since it doesn't look like that stand is capable of generating any compression/clamping force on its own (although, you can do it in the stand w/skewer if over-engineered axle clamps aren't in the way). Perhaps there is a special attachment that's not shown?


To that end, the centrimaster is probably a better bet and you can just buy the PK DIs. However, since the centrimaster and the TS-2 use essentially the same mechanism for spreading the "uprights" you might be able to "frankenfy" the TS-2 to go parallel-for the ultimate in a custom truing stand dude! Have any machinist friends who owe you some favors?

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Just some random musings

Judging from pictures above, it looks like you'll still have to use your skewer trick to adjust the preload even on the P&K since it doesn't look like that stand is capable of generating any compression/clamping force on its own (although, you can do it in the stand w/skewer if over-engineered axle clamps aren't in the way). Perhaps there is a special attachment that's not shown?


To that end, the centrimaster is probably a better bet and you can just buy the PK DIs. However, since the centrimaster and the TS-2 use essentially the same mechanism for spreading the "uprights" you might be able to "frankenfy" the TS-2 to go parallel-for the ultimate in a custom truing stand dude! Have any machinist friends who owe you some favors?

Both stands hold the hub with plenty of clamping force without the need for a skewer. In fact the Centrimaster stand, despite it's Park-like appearance and the way the arms move, what you don't see are the axle locks at the top of the arms. It holds so tight that they developed a "press-off" stress relieving technique with the wheel in the stand that is unique to Centrimaster. You can even do both bike and motorcycle wheels with one or two of their stands.

 

[El Oso]

I'm looking to build a set of wheels to replace a broken Ksyrium rear. I'm currently running an Askium taken from one of my other bikes, but it's so sluggish and heavy that it feels like I have an anchor on the back of my bike, which is starting to drive me crazy.

I'm trying to build a wheel under $600 USD and am considering the following:
Rim - leaning towards A23 but I've also considered Kinlin XR300
Spokes - DT Comps/Sapim Race. Brass nips. Not sure about the pattern. Initially was thinking 24 radial front 28 2x rear, but reading this thread I might reconsider.
Hubs - this is where I'm caught up. Right now I'm thinking DT 350s, Ultegra, or Velocity Race hubs. White's sound like they could be doable under the budget if I source them correctly or I could always hold out a little longer until they become in my budget. I know Miche's get good reviews but I'm not sure if I could source them through my LBS.

Alternatively, I am thinking about Williams 30x which I hear good things about. How do the Williams hubs compare to the DT, Shimano, Velocity or Whites?

A little about me: just a shade under 6 foot (181 cm) weigh between 165- 170 lbs (75-77 kg) depending upon the season. I would consider myself more on the diesel/grinder style. The wheels would be for all around riding, ideally something that wouldn't be too bad for climbing (unlike my Askiums).

Finally, it sounds like building the wheel myself would be a rewarding experience, but I'd have to do it without a truing stand and I am, well ... mechanically challenged. Is is still worth a try and take it into the LBS if I fail?

Any thoughts or ideals would be appreciated.

Sorry, for the long post, I'm trying to ween myself off factory wheels and get over previously buying into the marketing hype of factory build wheelsoutofboxes with low spoke counts.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

I'm looking to build a set of wheels to replace a broken Ksyrium rear. I'm currently running an Askium taken from one of my other bikes, but it's so sluggish and heavy that it feels like I have an anchor on the back of my bike, which is starting to drive me crazy.

I've heard that more than once.

I'm trying to build a wheel under $600 USD and am considering the following:
Rim - leaning towards A23 but I've also considered Kinlin XR300
Spokes - DT Comps/Sapim Race. Brass nips. Not sure about the pattern. Initially was thinking 24 radial front 28 2x rear, but reading this thread I might reconsider.
Hubs - this is where I'm caught up. Right now I'm thinking DT 350s, Ultegra, or Velocity Race hubs. White's sound like they could be doable under the budget if I source them correctly or I could always hold out a little longer until they become in my budget. I know Miche's get good reviews but I'm not sure if I could source them through my LBS.

All are good hubs on a budget. I think the Velocity hubs will build a stouter rear wheel, what you need. Spoke up son! 32h/3x rear, 28h/2x front. These are everyday wheels for a masher, and since we are in the same fighting weight class and same style of rider I'm on 32h rears for my everyday wheels. You would appreciate the wider rim I think. KinLin is dropping a 23mm wide rim soon, but take a hard look at the H Plus Son Archetype, could be the perfect rim for your application, and since it's more robust, and slightly taller than a Velocity A23 you could do a 28/24, only with these rims though.. Remember, "everyday" set..

Alternatively, I am thinking about Williams 30x which I hear good things about. How do the Williams hubs compare to the DT, Shimano, Velocity or Whites?

William's isn't a wheel builder, they are Chinese builds rebranded.

A little about me: just a shade under 6 foot (181 cm) weigh between 165- 170 lbs (75-77 kg) depending upon the season. I would consider myself more on the diesel/grinder style. The wheels would be for all around riding, ideally something that wouldn't be too bad for climbing (unlike my Askiums).

Wheels aren't going to make your climbs any faster, especially the difference of 4 spokes at 6 grams a piece.

Finally, it sounds like building the wheel myself would be a rewarding experience, but I'd have to do it without a truing stand and I am, well ... mechanically challenged. Is is still worth a try and take it into the LBS if I fail?

I agree, it would be totally rewarding, but I wouldn't start with a wheel set you're going to be hammering on everyday. Let the pros build that one for you...

Any thoughts or ideals would be appreciated.

I only ride a lot so I can drink beer and eat ice cream. Thought I'd share that.

Sorry, for the long post, I'm trying to ween myself off factory wheels and get over previously buying into the marketing hype of factory build wheelsoutofboxes with low spoke counts.

One-size-fits-all is great for cheap Pace cycling caps, not wheels..

 

[biker jk]

Hi all. I'm thinking about a climbing wheelset of around 1250 grams. I weigh 68.5kg or almost 151 lbs. I've looked at Stans Alpha 340 (I believe the new version is heavier but has addressed the earlier models shortcomings) and Kinlin XR-200 for the rims. No interest in carbon rims. Hubs I'm considering are Tune (MIG70 and MIG170) and Alchemy. Thinking Sapim CX-Ray's for spokes. Any suggestions on a preferred build (rims, hubs, spoke lacing, nipples)?

 

[JayKosta]

...
Finally, it sounds like building the wheel myself would be a rewarding experience, but I'd have to do it without a truing stand and I am, well ... mechanically challenged. Is is still worth a try and take it into the LBS if I fail?
...
Any thoughts or ideas would be appreciated.
...

===================================================
Building your own wheels can be 'rewarding' because of 'having done it', and a stand isn't a necessity - it just puts the wheel in a more convenient and comfortable location.
BUT... getting a wheel to run true with good even spoke tension all around can be very finicky and time consuming for a 1st time DIYer.
The tough part is getting the rim true in BOTH directions - side-to-side, AND up-down. Replacing a single broken spoke is easy because only the side-to-side needs attention.
It would be a good off-season project, but not one if you need the wheels in a few days....

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

 

[runninboy]

Finally, it sounds like building the wheel myself would be a rewarding experience, but I'd have to do it without a truing stand and I am, well ... mechanically challenged. Is is still worth a try and take it into the LBS if I fail?
Any thoughts or ideals would be appreciated.

I only ride handbuilt and have attempted a few times to build them myself. Which was kind of stupid given there are a few really good wheelbuilders near me. It is hard without a truing stand. But you can take your mistakes to the LBS. Actually i do that often. Sometimes i buy an old set of wheels of the internet for the parts i want. I saw some campy tubular rims i wanted on some shimano hubs. So i taped a box section clincher rim of similar dimensions to the campy rim and swapped the hubs & spokes over. I tried to tension and true a little and then took them into the shop. It was much cheaper and easier than having them build from scratch and a great set of winter wheels. The only thing i would caution on, it is better to keep things a little loose and let the shop fix it, than to crank up the tension so high that you might damage something. Years ago i built a front wheel by myself and made it nice & tight. When i hit a bump, i cracked off the hub flange. Lucky the whole wheel didn't go.