::::~ Wheelbuilders thread ~::::

[biker77]

In the pre-roubaix thumbnail gallery on CN, apparently Astana are riding 105 hubs. What gives? Weight is irrelavant or some other perceived advantage, or just marketing?

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

In the pre-roubaix thumbnail gallery on CN, apparently Astana are riding 105 hubs. What gives? Weight is irrelavant or some other perceived advantage, or just marketing?

I thought the caption of that photo was pretty clear why.

"Astana wheel sponsor Corima doesn't make traditional high-end road hubs so the team has to look elsewhere, building up its Paris-Roubaix wheels around Shimano 105 hubs"

As for hub weight the difference in weight from 105 to Ultegra to DA, or any hub for that matter is irrelevant. One time use anyway, after Sunday the service course will probably sell them off for cheap to their homies.

 

[biker77]

I thought the caption of that photo was pretty clear why.

"Astana wheel sponsor Corima doesn't make traditional high-end road hubs so the team has to look elsewhere, building up its Paris-Roubaix wheels around Shimano 105 hubs"

As for hub weight the difference in weight from 105 to Ultegra to DA, or any hub for that matter is irrelevant. One time use anyway, after Sunday the service course will probably sell them off for cheap to their homies.

I read the caption. Why 105 and not DA?

 

[Marva32]

I read the caption. Why 105 and not DA?

I think RDV made the point, that for a single race, when the team is going out and spending money from its budget, why pay for DA when 105 will work just as well?

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

I read the caption. Why 105 and not DA?

Cost for a one time use wheel set, steel axles vs. aluminum maybe. Or, maybe the drunk Kazakhs that run the team left it until the last minute and 105 was all that they could procure.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

I read the caption. Why 105 and not DA?

Why DA? Just more expensive and provide no advantage in this race.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Cost for a one time use wheel set, steel axles vs. aluminum maybe. Or, maybe the drunk Kazakhs that run the team left it until the last minute and 105 was all that they could procure.

Yep, I don't think people realize how much stuff is used, abused and then gotten rid of(either in the trash or cheap sell) after these 2 races. Flanders and then Roubaix.

Still think RDV is the class of Roubaix, in spite of Boonen's 4th win.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Yep, I don't think people realize how much stuff is used, abused and then gotten rid of(either in the trash or cheap sell) after these 2 races. Flanders and then Roubaix.

Still think RDV is the class of Roubaix, in spite of Boonen's 4th win.

For sure, but as of today I'm retiring the RDV4ROUBAIX account, refuse to share the record books with Boonen. I'm awaiting approval for a new account and user name, coming back as Giuseppe Magnetico. This is the name I'm using at the velorooms forum now. You should visit there more.

 

[biker77]

Why DA? Just more expensive and provide no advantage in this race.

I prefer the drunk kazakh explanation

 

[Bustedknuckle]

For sure, but as of today I'm retiring the RDV4ROUBAIX account, refuse to share the record books with Boonen. I'm awaiting approval for a new account and user name, coming back as Giuseppe Magnetico. This is the name I'm using at the velorooms forum now. You should visit there more.

Seems pretty slow. Want entertainment? Paceline Forum(formerly Serotta).

I'll bet ya get scolded in a week(I did).

 

[Stu_artC]

I was looking to pick the brains of the experienced wheelbuilders on the forum. I've always had factory wheelsets in the past and am now looking at getting my first custom set built for me.

I am looking for a lightweight wheelset, that is geared towards allot of climbing, as that will be the nature of the riding I do with them, so weight is key. I weigh 70kg, but am looking to shed approx 2-3kgs over the coming months to improve my climbing. Most of the roads I'll be riding on are fairly sealed and I don't bash the equipment I ride on, so the wheelset won't have to take allot of abuse.

From what I've researched online and reading this forum, I really like the look and reviews of the Alchemy ELF/ORC hubs and those will more than 90% be what I request for the hubs to be.
As for rim, spokes and spoke patterns I really have no idea what would be best.

Any recommendations you can offer would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

I was looking to pick the brains of the experienced wheelbuilders on the forum. I've always had factory wheelsets in the past and am now looking at getting my first custom set built for me.

I am looking for a lightweight wheelset, that is geared towards allot of climbing, as that will be the nature of the riding I do with them, so weight is key. I weigh 70kg, but am looking to shed approx 2-3kgs over the coming months to improve my climbing. Most of the roads I'll be riding on are fairly sealed and I don't bash the equipment I ride on, so the wheelset won't have to take allot of abuse.

From what I've researched online and reading this forum, I really like the look and reviews of the Alchemy ELF/ORC hubs and those will more than 90% be what I request for the hubs to be.
As for rim, spokes and spoke patterns I really have no idea what would be best.

Any recommendations you can offer would be greatly appreciated.

If you want light, you want carbon tubulars, either Enve, Reynolds or handbuilt.

Gonna be expensive tho...but in the 1100 gram range. But also remember, even at 70 kgs and with a say 7kg or so bicycle, 77,000 grams so spending a ton of $ on a wheelset that will save you 300-400 grams...may not be worth it. Get the 1500 gram wheelset, lose those 3 kgs and the wheels now weigh 1200 grams..magic.

 

[JayKosta]

What wheels and tires are you using now?

Have you had any 'durability' concerns with your current set?
Are you willing to accept more concerns to reduce the weight?

Have you got a cost amount that you think is reasonable for you?

Lightweight
Durable
Inexpensive
-- pick 2

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

 

[LugHugger]

What wheels and tires are you using now?

Have you had any 'durability' concerns with your current set?
Are you willing to accept more concerns to reduce the weight?

Have you got a cost amount that you think is reasonable for you?

Lightweight
Durable
Inexpensive
-- pick 2

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

"Strong. Light. Cheap. Pick two." Keith Bontrager aka The Dude

 

[Notso Swift]

Tubs or clinchers?

Tubs easy, lots of choice at good prices, an Ambrosio F20 is light enough and strong enough with Sapim Lasers for your weight 32 spoke and still 1250 with those hubs, below 1200 with Dash, Tune or Extralight

Carbon and less spokes drop another 100-150gr (so you are talking a seriously light 1050 gr wheel set with say Reynolds KOM rims and still on Alchemy), but like the people said - the costs go up a fair bit
That is low profile or you can have an Aero Tub for less than 1200g

Clinchers, not so easy, the lightest are Stans 340, which weigh in around 355g in real life, most others are 400-450+ and in aero even carbon clinchers go up around 500
Carbon Clinchers never make sense to me, after all, they weigh more than tubs yet do not work as well, over heat rims chance of blow out and all that
While you have to carry the weight going up hill, you then need to worry about overheating the rim and blowing out going down...

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

I was looking to pick the brains of the experienced wheelbuilders on the forum. I've always had factory wheelsets in the past and am now looking at getting my first custom set built for me.

I am looking for a lightweight wheelset, that is geared towards allot of climbing, as that will be the nature of the riding I do with them, so weight is key. I weigh 70kg, but am looking to shed approx 2-3kgs over the coming months to improve my climbing. Most of the roads I'll be riding on are fairly sealed and I don't bash the equipment I ride on, so the wheelset won't have to take allot of abuse.

From what I've researched online and reading this forum, I really like the look and reviews of the Alchemy ELF/ORC hubs and those will more than 90% be what I request for the hubs to be.
As for rim, spokes and spoke patterns I really have no idea what would be best.

Any recommendations you can offer would be greatly appreciated.

Alchemy ELF front, Ambrosio F20 rim, 28h1x, Sapim Laser
Alchemy ORC rear, Ambrosio F20 rim, 28h1xNDS, 3xDS, Sapim Laser NDS, Sapim Race DS, alloy nipples all around.

This set weighs approx 1275g, and plenty durable.

 

[Stu_artC]

What wheels and tires are you using now?

Have you had any 'durability' concerns with your current set?
Are you willing to accept more concerns to reduce the weight?

Have you got a cost amount that you think is reasonable for you?

Lightweight
Durable
Inexpensive
-- pick 2

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

Currently I'm running Dura-Ace C50s. Whilst they are great for flat rides, going up the hills I want something more lightweight.
I've had no durability concerns with the current wheelset, only looking to change due to the change in riding scenery, mountains, mountains and more mountains. I'll still be keeping the Dura-Ace C50s for flat rides.
I'm willing to pay more to get the right wheelset, and really don't have a budget in mind, so it's pretty open book currently.

 

[Stu_artC]

Tubs or clinchers?

Tubs easy, lots of choice at good prices, an Ambrosio F20 is light enough and strong enough with Sapim Lasers for your weight 32 spoke and still 1250 with those hubs, below 1200 with Dash, Tune or Extralight

Carbon and less spokes drop another 100-150gr (so you are talking a seriously light 1050 gr wheel set with say Reynolds KOM rims and still on Alchemy), but like the people said - the costs go up a fair bit
That is low profile or you can have an Aero Tub for less than 1200g

Clinchers, not so easy, the lightest are Stans 340, which weigh in around 355g in real life, most others are 400-450+ and in aero even carbon clinchers go up around 500
Carbon Clinchers never make sense to me, after all, they weigh more than tubs yet do not work as well, over heat rims chance of blow out and all that
While you have to carry the weight going up hill, you then need to worry about overheating the rim and blowing out going down...

Those weight figures are impressive on the Reynolds KOM setup. What sort of spokes and spoke pattern would you recommend for this setup?

 

[Bespoke]

If you want light, you want carbon tubulars, either Enve, Reynolds or handbuilt.

Gonna be expensive tho...but in the 1100 gram range. But also remember, even at 70 kgs and with a say 7kg or so bicycle, 77,000 grams so spending a ton of $ on a wheelset that will save you 300-400 grams...may not be worth it. Get the 1500 gram wheelset, lose those 3 kgs and the wheels now weigh 1200 grams..magic.

Hi BN,

Is the ratio of deadweight to rotational weight (mass) 10:1?

Not sure if I've got my terms right: just getting into the sport and am smitten with handbuilts - will be my first set.

Thanks

 

[Notso Swift]

Those weight figures are impressive on the Reynolds KOM setup. What sort of spokes and spoke pattern would you recommend for this setup?

20 front, radial
28 rear x 2
Fr hub 66
Rr Hub 222
4 Lasers (or CX-ray, same weight triple cost) @ 4.36 = 210
KOM's are 240g x 2 =520
12mm Alu nips .31 x 44 = 14
(add 30g for brass, you may get away with 24 rear, but then you would not use Lasers)

From Wheelbuilder.com, a mate of mine runs KOMs on Dash hubs for climbing wheels in races, those wheels weigh 1600g INCLUDING a Recon Cassette, skewers and Veloflex tyres (and the tyres are not that light)
Any complete wheelset including everything below 2000 is seriously light

 

[Notso Swift]

Hi BN,

Is the ratio of deadweight to rotational weight (mass) 10:1?

Not sure if I've got my terms right: just getting into the sport and am smitten with handbuilts - will be my first set.

Thanks

Weight is weight, it doesn't change
Rotational mass is a bit of a misnomer, the issue is actually the change in speed (+/- acceleration) if you maintain a constant there is zero effect

Now the effect on acceleration is effected by the weight, and distance of the weight from the pivot (further out the greater the effect), it is also an effect if the change of rotational speed
THe maths is "advanced" to put a ratio on it is too simplistic

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Hi BN,

Is the ratio of deadweight to rotational weight (mass) 10:1?

Not sure if I've got my terms right: just getting into the sport and am smitten with handbuilts - will be my first set.

Thanks

No, weight is weight. 'Rotational' weight differences are there but are on average, about .1 of 1% difference of energy required to spin to a certain speed, if you double the rim weight. Lost in the noise. The wheel isn't spinning fast enough nor are the weights high enough to make any significant difference.

The energy it takes to accelerate a bike and rider depends on the mass of the bike and rider.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

No, weight is weight. 'Rotational' weight differences are there but are on average, about .1 of 1% difference of energy required to spin to a certain speed, if you double the rim weight. Lost in the noise. The wheel isn't spinning fast enough nor are the weights high enough to make any significant difference.

The energy it takes to accelerate a bike and rider depends on the mass of the bike and rider.

If rotational weight doesn't matter, take a set built up with H+Son SL42's, a 615g rim and ride up to NCAR and do about 5-6 hard accelerations. Swap your wheel set to a Ambrosio F20 (360g) build and go up again. I'll bet the difference is more than 1%

 

[JayKosta]

Rotating weight is always a factor, especially when sprinting or accelerating.

But even when riding at what seems like a constant speed, there is always some amount of accelerate/decelerate on each pedal stroke.
When going up-hill, the speed change on pedal strokes is greater than on the flat (due to gravity causing decel).

Also, small bumps on the road surface can cause small amount of accel/decel - that is why getting the optimum tire pressure is important.
When a tire hits a bump (even a tiny one), it is pushed upward and slowed slightly - so some accel is needed to maintain a 'steady' speed.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

 

[kuoirad]

If rotational weight doesn't matter, take a set built up with H+Son SL42's, a 615g rim and ride up to NCAR and do about 5-6 hard accelerations. Swap your wheel set to a Ambrosio F20 (360g) build and go up again. I'll bet the difference is more than 1%

For fair or foolish, I am going to try climbing to NCAR again when I'm in Boulder next week. Gotta go rent a bike (I think University Bicycles rents a Cannondale triple w/ a wide cassette...) when I get there. Hill repeats (even if I only get 1/3-1/2 up) are good for me right now...