Wheels: Clinchers vs. Tubular vs. Tubeless

[grimpeur]

Pretty easy when they are free. No really 'bad' tires these days, either on the WE warrior's bici or in the professional peloton in europe. Technology run amok with tubeless tho. If it weren't for the requirement to have tubeless specific wheels(no goop/rubber strips, etc, please) it may be a good idea but should have happened about the same time it happened for motorcycles(even some of those still use tubes).

10 years on and only one company with one model of road tubeless tire. Don't see it becoming mainstream. Hasn't in MTB..won't on the road.

My point about Hutch being on pro teams is only that they're good enough to win races on right? There is a important reason for a tubeless specific rim that you wouldn't get with any other "tubeless" combination (goop, rubber strips, etc.) That is the fact with the tubeless tire-rim specific set-up, when you puncture, the tire will not come off the rim. That is a huge safety factor and one of the primary reasons that the pros still ride tubulars. In terms of availability, Hutch now has three tubeless models Atom, Fusion2 and Intensive. FYI, the technology has only been out for road for about 3-4 years, not 10.

 

[Pietro]

My point about Hutch being on pro teams is only that they're good enough to win races on right? There is a important reason for a tubeless specific rim that you wouldn't get with any other "tubeless" combination (goop, rubber strips, etc.) That is the fact with the tubeless tire-rim specific set-up, when you puncture, the tire will not come off the rim. That is a huge safety factor and one of the primary reasons that the pros still ride tubulars. In terms of availability, Hutch now has three tubeless models Atom, Fusion2 and Intensive. FYI, the technology has only been out for road for about 3-4 years, not 10.

As I said, no really 'bad' tires out there from any mainstream manufacturer. They all could eqip a pro teams tires w/o problems. The teams go with whom gives the best 'package', support wise.

A tubular won't come off the rim either, as you mentioned.

Bike tubeless started in 1999(yes, MTB, but bicycle tubeless nonetheless).

http://www.bikemag.com/features/onlineexclusive/040306_vernon

 

[dmyoungsal]

Love Tubulars

I know this thread is really old, but to put in my 2 cents, I have ridden both, but always came back to tubulars.

Part of my decision was the way tubulars ride and the fact that they are more resilient to punctures from conditions causing pinch flats for clinchers.

I stopped riding them for a while because of the cost. There were a couple times that I had put on a brand new tire, rode a couple miles and had a flat! This was getting expensive! I used to ride Swallow tubulars (20 years ago), but could not find those anymore and switch to Continentals, Panaracer or Vittoria. I did not really like the lower end Vittoria.

But a couple years ago, I stumbled on to the store Yellow Jearsey (their website actually) and chatted with the owner Andrew Muzi and he re-convinced my that getting back on tubulars was the way to go. Plus, he sells a three-pack of 'non-branded' tubulars for around $60 and these things are great and very durable. I have been getting around 2000 miles on a tire before having to replace it! These tires are every bit as good as the lower end Conti and half the price!

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Nice! Yellow Jersey in Madison, WI is hands down one of the best bike shops in the country.

 

[sherer]

not sure if it was the wheels or the tyres but my mate just bought some Easton C90 carbon rims with tubular tyres. After seeing him freewheel past me loads of times while I had to peddle I have been looking at upgrading my tyres \ wheels to something better. Am a bit clueless about the technical side of things with the bike so still looking into this.

What matters more the wheels or the tyres ? feel free to tell me to start a new thread if that is more appropriate

 

[Pietro]

not sure if it was the wheels or the tyres but my mate just bought some Easton C90 carbon rims with tubular tyres. After seeing him freewheel past me loads of times while I had to peddle I have been looking at upgrading my tyres \ wheels to something better. Am a bit clueless about the technical side of things with the bike so still looking into this.

What matters more the wheels or the tyres ? feel free to tell me to start a new thread if that is more appropriate

Gravity, it's the law.

 

[grimpeur]

As I said, no really 'bad' tires out there from any mainstream manufacturer. They all could eqip a pro teams tires w/o problems. The teams go with whom gives the best 'package', support wise.

A tubular won't come off the rim either, as you mentioned.

Bike tubeless started in 1999(yes, MTB, but bicycle tubeless nonetheless).

http://www.bikemag.com/features/onlineexclusive/040306_vernon

The only thing Road Tubeless technology shares with MTB tubeless is that there's no tube. The tire beads (carbon fiber) and bead shape are quite different than MTB tubeless. When Hutchinson developed their Road Tubeless system, they had to start from scratch.

There's a variety of reasons that Road Tubeless has not been more successful thus far. Poor concept is not one of them.

And actually a tubular (even well glued) in the right circumstances can come off the rim.

 

[SlantParallelogram]

There is no doubt that once the price comes down tubeless will take over. Clinchers and Sew-Ups are stone age technology in comparison.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

It's not a matter of price, it's the selection. Tubless tech has been available for the road for 10+ years, and the pros demand sew-ups every time. As long as Hutch is the only tire mfg in the tubeless game, I don't see it taking over as a standard at all, maybe a third choice at best. Now if Michelin, Vittoria, Schwable, Verdestein, Continental, and Maxxis jump on the tubless bandwagon, you might see some changes, but I'm not holding my breath.

I would be more interested in tubless if someone designed a hollow spoke air regulator so the rider could adjust air pressure from the handlebars on the fly. Now that would be something....

 

[runninboy]

And actually a tubular (even well glued) in the right circumstances can come off the rim.

Oh really? well i wish you lived near me so you could help me pry off my frickin sewups! I have a very long narrow screwdrived i gently pry my way through to the other side , then i have to put my full weight 185 lbs on the screw driver as sit on the top of the wheel, doing this and rotating the handle of the screwdriver i can get the tire loose from 3oclock to 5 oclock then get off the wheel rotate it so the screwdriver is at 3 oclock again.

If you use FASTACK properly you will never roll a tire. I have been doing so since i caught a certain Pro team mechanic using it instead of his FREE glue from Vittoria. He warned me how difficult it is to get it off once it cures.
In almost 20 years never came close to having one come off, i have been in crashes where we heated up the rims so bad the tires blew and still they stayed glued.

fast tack .try it sometime, the pros do

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

fast tack .try it sometime, the pros do

Ahhh, 3M Fast Tack. I hope you ventilate well. That sh!t will knock you on your @ss with tweety birds flying around your head and you're eyes X'd out like in the cartoons if you don't open some windows or the garage. Thanks for supporting the local Co. though. Only used one tube of Fast Tack ever and will never go back just due to the fumes, nasty sh!t. It really isn't any better than Vittoria or Conti glue, plus it takes much longer to cure properly. The only conceivable reason for using it is that it's dirt cheap in comparison, if you can put up with the stink.

 

[runninboy]

Ahhh, 3M Fast Tack. I hope you ventilate well. That sh!t will knock you on your @ss with tweety birds flying around your head and you're eyes X'd out like in the cartoons if you don't open some windows or the garage. Thanks for supporting the local Co. though. Only used one tube of Fast Tack ever and will never go back just due to the fumes, nasty sh!t. It really isn't any better than Vittoria or Conti glue, plus it takes much longer to cure properly. The only conceivable reason for using it is that it's dirt cheap in comparison, if you can put up with the stink.

first i have only used it outside, sometimes i even use a mask even though i am outside. It actually does not take longer to cure properly i remember reading the article where they claimed it did but i would say in 24 hrs it has cured better than Vittoria or Mastick. I remember a local rider complained & challenged those results, Jim Miller a masters racer with a very good rep.
Jim claimed he has used Fast Tack successfully for years and that it is rideable within a few hours. From my experience i believe him.
However we both live in a warm dry climate, i usually glue outside when it is 80 degrees & sunny and no humidity to speak off in CA.
If the testers were in a cool lab with humidity that could account for longer cure...

 

[Pietro]

Ahhh, 3M Fast Tack. I hope you ventilate well. That sh!t will knock you on your @ss with tweety birds flying around your head and you're eyes X'd out like in the cartoons if you don't open some windows or the garage. Thanks for supporting the local Co. though. Only used one tube of Fast Tack ever and will never go back just due to the fumes, nasty sh!t. It really isn't any better than Vittoria or Conti glue, plus it takes much longer to cure properly. The only conceivable reason for using it is that it's dirt cheap in comparison, if you can put up with the stink.

Not more noxious than Panaracer tubie glue. The best there is at gluing, IMO, but expensive and it makes you 'take a trip without leaving the farm'...

 

[grimpeur]

Oh really? well i wish you lived near me so you could help me pry off my frickin sewups! I have a very long narrow screwdrived i gently pry my way through to the other side , then i have to put my full weight 185 lbs on the screw driver as sit on the top of the wheel, doing this and rotating the handle of the screwdriver i can get the tire loose from 3oclock to 5 oclock then get off the wheel rotate it so the screwdriver is at 3 oclock again.

If you use FASTACK properly you will never roll a tire. I have been doing so since i caught a certain Pro team mechanic using it instead of his FREE glue from Vittoria. He warned me how difficult it is to get it off once it cures.
In almost 20 years never came close to having one come off, i have been in crashes where we heated up the rims so bad the tires blew and still they stayed glued.

fast tack .try it sometime, the pros do

1984 Tour de France, I did a wheel change (Neutral Mavic car) for a rider that was in the process of rolling a tire after a 10 mile descent in 95º heat. The tire was on the rim (barely), actually he was riding on the sidewall of the tire except where the valve was still in the rim. I rode tubs for years and have used fast tack. Mavic US neutral used it for the track support bicycles.

 

[runninboy]

Not more noxious than Panaracer tubie glue. The best there is at gluing, IMO, but expensive and it makes you 'take a trip without leaving the farm'...

I heard about some Japanese glue that the kerin riders use over there, is that
Panaracer?

 

[Pietro]

I heard about some Japanese glue that the kerin riders use over there, is that
Panaracer?

Soyo Daiwabo-Very expensive tho. $60 per small can

 

[runninboy]

Soyo Daiwabo-Very expensive tho. $60 per small can

thanks! i heard good things about it, but had no idea it was so expensive, but i could imagine the chaos that would ensue if keirin riders started rolling tires?

 

[SlantParallelogram]

It's not a matter of price, it's the selection. Tubless tech has been available for the road for 10+ years, and the pros demand sew-ups every time. As long as Hutch is the only tire mfg in the tubeless game, I don't see it taking over as a standard at all, maybe a third choice at best. Now if Michelin, Vittoria, Schwable, Verdestein, Continental, and Maxxis jump on the tubless bandwagon, you might see some changes, but I'm not holding my breath.

The problem here is that the people designing the tubeless systems are bicycle industry "engineers." When I finished college and went to work in the auto industry I started to realize that the "technology" in the bicycle industry was/is a joke in comparison.

Michelin, Continental, Dunlop, Maxxis, Pirelli, Bridgestone, or any other company that builds motorcycle racing tires could develop a tubeless bicycle tire with their eyes closed. All they need is the financial motivation, which probably will never come since the market is small in comparison.

 

[indigophox]

Thanks for the thoughts,

Plus the 7900 chain, replacing the worn 7800 chain (etc.) will bring it closer to a pound of savings.

Hehehehe... ok this just tickles me pink. "Oh, I'll buy an expensive, light chain to make me faster" is one of the most recognizable signs that you shouldn't be buying expensive, light stuff, yet.

I'm one of those annoying riders who passes people with expensive, light chains on hills as though they're standing still. I finally bought a true high-end bike, an R3 SL, and yet I'm running a $30 KMC chain on it. Why? If you're putting out enough power to make buying expensive chains worthwhile, you're also killing them like flies. Go spend your money on expensive, not-so-****y stuff that makes your bike more comfortable and more durable, and then go ride more.

For the record, and to the point of this thread, I ride and race on clinchers. There are too many teeny little shards of glass on the roads where I live to make repairing a tubbie every 500km worth my while.

Of course, as someone else mentioned, there are products like Vittoria Pit Stop, Hutchinson Fast Air, etc., (as well as preventative sealants), which theoretically make puncture (not pinch) flats on any real tire (good tires only get small punctures, because their breaker belts keep large stuff out) a non-issue, and beat the hell out of changing either a tub or a clincher in the middle of any race or sportive. But, get a big enough hole, and you're sunk.

 

[Ferdinand Artichoke]

The problem here is that the people designing the tubeless systems are bicycle industry "engineers." When I finished college and went to work in the auto industry I started to realize that the "technology" in the bicycle industry was/is a joke in comparison.

Porsche, Volvo, BMW
reputable car manufacturers who have turned their hand at making bikes

the ones I've seen = absolutely rubbish

You talk as if the king of monopoly will also be the king of checkers.

Bicycles may be simpler... but the technology is not necessarily inferior.


You probably think indexing of gears was a great leap forward...

 

[SlantParallelogram]

Porsche, Volvo, BMW
reputable car manufacturers who have turned their hand at making bikes

the ones I've seen = absolutely rubbish

You talk as if the king of monopoly will also be the king of checkers.

Bicycles may be simpler... but the technology is not necessarily inferior.


You probably think indexing of gears was a great leap forward...

Why would you think that?

Indexed shifting was absolutely unnecessary.

The car companies that built bikes did it as more of a gimmick than anything else.

The technology in bikes is absolutely inferior. The only thing they have really improved in the last 30 years would be the frame materials. Except that all the exotic frame materials they are using today trickled down from aerospace and auto racing. So it wasn't the bicycle industry that did the innovation.

 

[L29205]

The technology in bikes is absolutely inferior. The only thing they have really improved in the last 30 years would be the frame materials. Except that all the exotic frame materials they are using today trickled down from aerospace and auto racing. So it wasn't the bicycle industry that did the innovation.

You are completely correct but there comes a point do you change tire design to tubeless just because you can or is it a better technology. Aluminum and Carbon Fiber turned out to be better technology creating better bikes for all of us. Does a tubeless tire system gain you that much performance over a standard tubular?

 

[SlantParallelogram]

You are completely correct but there comes a point do you change tire design to tubeless just because you can or is it a better technology. Aluminum and Carbon Fiber turned out to be better technology creating better bikes for all of us. Does a tubeless tire system gain you that much performance over a standard tubular?

You are right that a tubeless tire system doesn't end up saving much (if any) weight over regular a tubular tire set up. (How come nobody says "sew-up" anymore?)

Anyway, the only real performance benefit of the tubeless system is not having to worry about a tubular rolling off the rim and ability to run lower tire pressures. The lower tire pressure thing is not really an issue for road bikes. However if I was pro racer in Europe going down those crazy descents, I would totally worry about the glue on my wheels melting and rolling a tire. So in that case I would much rather have a tubeless set up.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Anyway, the only real performance benefit of the tubeless system is not having to worry about a tubular rolling off the rim and ability to run lower tire pressures. The lower tire pressure thing is not really an issue for road bikes. However if I was pro racer in Europe going down those crazy descents, I would totally worry about the glue on my wheels melting and rolling a tire. So in that case I would much rather have a tubeless set up.

Is it any wonder why how long tubeless tech has been around for so long and the pros still demand sew ups. They also do run lower pressures with sew ups on le pavé. Rolling sew ups off the rim due to melting glue almost never happens, it does, but rarely. You'd have to be a complete novice to screw up gluing a tubular system. Truth be told I'd rather flat with a sew up at high speed in a race than a tubless system, which would basically act like a flat clincher, and you'd be sliding all over the place on your bare rim if you didn't keep it dead straight.

One thing I'll give credit to tubeless tech is that they're finally starting to make the rims lighter.

 

[SlantParallelogram]

Rolling sew ups off the rim due to melting glue almost never happens, it does, but rarely. You'd have to be a complete novice to screw up gluing a tubular system.

Isn't that what happened to poor old Joseba Beloki and essentially ended his career?