When did brake levers start creeping up the handlebar?

[winkybiker]

I read your post and thought I'd do some measuring. I've been riding road bikes since 1975, and up to the mid to late 90s sizing, give or take the odd degree of angle, was pretty standard. I've always ridden 590mm centre to centre frames, XL or XXL in today's sizes. In the early 2000s I bought my first compact frame, built it up, and went for a ride. I couldn't work out why everything felt wrong and I couldn't get comfortable on the drops. When I got back home I did some measuring. The new frame had a head-tube length of 190mm, the same as the 1995 Bianchi I'd been riding, and close to the 180mm of the early 1990s Merckx I had (both 590mm centre to centre). However there was one big difference, the Bianchi and Merckx both had 50mm of headset to add to that, while the new frame had an integrated headset that added around 5mm. So in the case of the Bianchi I'd lost 45mm of stack (I'm making an assumption that the angles, bottom bracket height etc were about the same which they were). The only way that I could get a similar position on the new frame to that on the old, was to get a pair of forks with an extra long steerer, and use loads of spacers. I should add that the Merckx and Bianchi frames had classic racing geometry, and of course were designed for quill stems, plus I used deep drop bars. I also should add that I could get into a low, comfortable tuck on the Bianchi, and on a 0.5 km hill near me, could hit 80km + after just 250 metres.

It seems to me that when manufacturers set out to design compact frames they used the same or similar head-tube lengths as on the old style frames, but didn't take into account the loss of 45mm or more of headset (possibly because integrated headsets didn't come in straightaway). I suppose the assumption was that people could use spacers and flip stems. As for the Pros, the hoods are the new drops, and the brake/gear levers are optimised to be used from this position. There's a photo of Cancellara sprinting on the hoods, and one of the bikes photographed at Paris-Roubaix had its bars angled such that the drops would be difficult to use. Now when pros use the drops their elbows are often more or less locked, something we were told not to do back in the olden days.

So in order to get a frame that fits me I have to go down the `endurance'/`comfort' route, and that's to get me into the position that I raced in 15 years ago. The `endurance' Merida that I ride currently has a`massive' 240mm long head-tube, but can still give me a 137mm saddle to bar drop, if I should so wish, just by taking out spacers and using a different stem.

So to sum up this rather long essay I think the `endurance' or `comfort' frames of today, are similar in geometry to the `pro' geometry frames of the 70s, 80s and 90s, but what has changed is the routine use of the hoods rather than the drops, leading to the `slam that stem' fashion in order to get low.

What you say makes some sense. We do perhaps tend to ride with our arms straighter now. Back in the day when I last rode a bike with a quill stem, it had more headset height and a bit of quill before the horizontal bit. But the horizontal bit WAS horizontal. Most stems now have moderate lift when installed the right way up and massive lift when installed upside down. I think this more than compensates for the headset height. I think the pros just ride with straighter arms now (they mostly use long, horizontal stems and small frames, too - so it's more extreme than for most). Why? You'd have to ask them.

For me......

When riding hard (in higher gears, that is - not so much uphill), I feel that my core puts my upper body into an equilibrium position that is more-or-less independent of where my hands actually are. If I'm on the hoods my arms are more bent than when I'm in the drops, but my upper body is in much the same position. The harder (and faster) I ride the lower that equilibrium position is. At some point, the drops feel better and that's where I'll move to, rather than ride with very bent arms. It's both speed and effort. The drops feel comfortable when descending, even if I'm not pedalling that hard. On the flat, the drops become the best spot above a certain effort. When going uphill it changes again...

....the most powerful/comfortable feeling position is more upright, with my hands either on the hoods or bar tops (like everyone, I guess). It isn't clear to me why that is. Maybe to do with a choppier pedal stroke due to the lower gears.

 

[Volderke]

Wiggins bars reminded me of Boonen's setup in 2008:
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/photos/2008/apr08/roubaix08/DSC09904.jpg

The rationale, I think, is to have a more vertical position in the drops which could dampen vibrations and shocks a bit better that a flat part in the drop.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Around 2000 is when it started in earnest.

Coincidentally about the time that 3 size fits all carbon frames starting popping out of the molds and the marketing people started with the nonsense that if you play with seatpin so and stems anyone can fit any frame.

It may have been earlier than that at the retail level. Giant just told the industry to adjust customers with seat posts and stems if it really mattered on their 3 sizes at lower prices. Carrying many different sizes in 2cm increments was plain crazy in plastic or aluminum.

It could have been other OEM's too. I just heard it in reference to Giant. You are about right at the WT sponsorship level.

 

[Hawkwood]

Team Sky rider has an unusual but effective bar setup

...The cockpit setup is unusual, too, with radically upturned bars but lever hoods that are nominally level with the ground....

The handlebars are radically upturned but it certainly seemed to work for Bradley Wiggins (Sky)



Wiggo might be the most notable or extreme but the certainly isn't alone.

Yes this was the photo I referred to in my post, almost unusable drops.

@ winkybiker
I get your drift, I think Henk Lubberding has written that for all the slam that stem stuff you still end up in the position that feels comfortable/efficient for you.

 

[Hawkwood]

It may have been earlier than that at the retail level. Giant just told the industry to adjust customers with seat posts and stems if it really mattered on their 3 sizes at lower prices. Carrying many different sizes in 2cm increments was plain crazy in plastic or aluminum.

It could have been other OEM's too. I just heard it in reference to Giant. You are about right at the WT sponsorship level.

Blame it on Mick Burrows, he came out with the original Giant design, it included the most flexible adjustable stem ever created, and supposedly used by ONCE.

 

[winkybiker]

Team Sky rider has an unusual but effective bar setup

...The cockpit setup is unusual, too, with radically upturned bars but lever hoods that are nominally level with the ground....

The handlebars are radically upturned but it certainly seemed to work for Bradley Wiggins (Sky)



Wiggo might be the most notable or extreme but the certainly isn't alone.

The bars on my touring bike once rotated to a position a bit like this (they weren't tight enough and I was "correcting" them on the fly). They were unrideable in that position in the drops. I felt like I was going to slip off the ends.

 

[Hawkwood]

The bars on my touring bike once rotated to a position a bit like this (they weren't tight enough and I was "correcting" them on the fly). They were unrideable in that position in the drops. I felt like I was going to slip off the ends.

Certainly some riders in the past asked for the bars not to be screwed down tightly so they could angle them slightly while riding, not sure if this was the case with Wiggins' bike? Otherwise as you say the drops don't look usable, so they might as well have sawed them off!

 

[stutue]

I think the angled up bars tend to be seen more on hilly days, don't they?

 

[Volderke]

Certainly some riders in the past asked for the bars not to be screwed down tightly so they could angle them slightly while riding, not sure if this was the case with Wiggins' bike? Otherwise as you say the drops don't look usable, so they might as well have sawed them off!

watch the race before you post... Look at Wiggins in the drops, also on cobbles.
And try to race with loose bars, I'll have a good laugh!

 

[Hawkwood]

watch the race before you post... Look at Wiggins in the drops, also on cobbles.
And try to race with loose bars, I'll have a good laugh!

The loose bar story is in a book by a team mechanic, he said he set some bars up for a pro, and was taken to task afterwards as they were so tight the rider couldn't rotate them while riding. I don't mean loose loose, I mean loose as in you'd need to put some effort into moving them. I'll see if I can find the reference.

 

[Volderke]

Would be curious to hear more about it! Must be that the bars were quite firm but could be moved with a sudden pull or push?

 

[Hawkwood]

Would be curious to hear more about it! Must be that the bars were quite firm but could be moved with a sudden pull or push?

Hi - it was a older example than I thought, and the reference is in Steve Snowling's book `Bicycle Mechanics'. It was when he worked on Danny Clark's bike, he liked steel handlebars in an alloy stem, and had them set very slightly loose, so he could adjust them during a race. Clark was mainly a track rider, but got some wins and placings in road races as well. From the reference it's not clear whether this set up was track only, or road and track. And yes I would guess the bars were still quite firm.