When is the smackdown on Chris Horner?

[Cookster15]

He was an absolute beast even before he turned pro. First time we raced together was, iirc, in 1994, at a series of domestic races. Not the best bike handler, but simply ferocious. I wish I'd had his talent and tenacity lol

I don't doubt that. My problem with Chris Horner is his transformation when he left Lotto. At Lotto he struggled to hold Cadel's wheel on HC cat climbs. But then after switching teams the boot was suddenly on the other foot - he was 37 by then? Of course the absurdity rose to a crescendo at the 2013 Vuelta when he was nearly 42 years old but that has been well covered.

 

[joe_papp]

I don't doubt that. My problem with Chris Horner is his transformation when he left Lotto. At Lotto he struggled to hold Cadel's wheel on HC cat climbs. But then after switching teams the boot was suddenly on the other foot - he was 37 by then? Of course the absurdity rose to a crescendo at the 2013 Vuelta when he was nearly 42 years old but that has been well covered.

Yeah that's reasonable of course. I'm just saying that his tremendous talent was apparent from the moment he appeared on the scene as a young guy.

 

[myrideissteelerthanyours]

Why is this thread a billion posts long? Alberto of Pinto and Piti rode clean and all the white guys were cheats. Case closed. Its not up for debate on this site why discuss it?

 

[SHAD0W93]

Yeah that's reasonable of course. I'm just saying that his tremendous talent was apparent from the moment he appeared on the scene as a young guy.

He definitely beat up on the American scene. With how talented he was and others thought of him during those years I’m surprised Armstrong and USPS never wanted him. But that talent doesn’t translate to winning world tour talent.

Age none withstanding, he had no really significant results until RadioShack. Then for his Vuelta win he never really had a top 10 in a GT. He was the breakaway top 10 in 2010 finishing 8th-10th from a breakaway and without that he would have been 16th behind Vino and his teammates Levi and Klöden. 2011 of course he had the crash but of the four RadioShack leaders I think Klöden was the strongest. 2012 he finished 13th and behind Zubeldia and Klöden when they were all doing their own race. Then 2013 he gets injured and comes back to win the Vuelta proving his quote he is the best climber after Contador and Schleck true, none withstanding.

 

[Pontiac]

Clinic rule #1 ........"if you're faster than me you're doping"

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Why is this thread a billion posts long? Alberto of Pinto and Piti rode clean and all the white guys were cheats. Case closed. Its not up for debate on this site why discuss it?

In what world is Contador not white?

 

[Ilmaestro99]

Why is this thread a billion posts long? Alberto of Pinto and Piti rode clean and all the white guys were cheats. Case closed. Its not up for debate on this site why discuss it?

Can I insult this guy? Or am I breaking a forum rule if I do?

 

[SHAD0W93]

In what world is Contador not white?

I think he is referring them to be Hispanic vs Caucasian.

 

[BlueRoads]

I think he is referring them to be Hispanic vs Caucasian.

Lol, you are right.

Hm, what about Jalabert, shall I refer to him as white or dark or dotted? And what about the Italians, are they Hispanic or Caucasian? Or Italics?

 

[SHAD0W93]

Lol, you are right.

Hm, what about Jalabert, shall I refer to him as white or dark or dotted? And what about the Italians, are they Hispanic or Caucasian? Or Italics?

Italics
You know, it is 2021.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Just like w/Wonderboy, give it some time, it'll eventually come out that he was doped to the gills. I don't believe there are any CURRENT riders(by current, I mean within the last 10-15 yrs) that are "the cleans".

Just MY opinion.

 

[Cookster15]

Just like w/Wonderboy, give it some time, it'll eventually come out that he was doped to the gills. I don't believe there are any CURRENT riders(by current, I mean within the last 10-15 yrs) that are "the cleans".

Just MY opinion.

I simply want an explanation why Chris Horner at Lotto is unrecognizable from the Chris Horner who rode for Astana and Radioshack.

The reason this thread is long is because Chris was never really hammered over his transformation between 2007 and 2008. There was a massive and obvious step up - and he was already something like 37 years old by then. He is obviously talented and obviously a nice guy. But come on!

 

[SHAD0W93]

I simply want an explanation why Chris Horner at Lotto is unrecognizable from the Chris Horner who rode for Astana and Radioshack.

The reason this thread is long is because Chris was never really hammered over his transformation between 2007 and 2008. There was a massive and obvious step up - and he was already something like 37 years old by then. He is obviously talented and obviously a nice guy. But come on!

The jump from Astana to RadioShack is even higher.

 

[86TDFWinner]

I simply want an explanation why Chris Horner at Lotto is unrecognizable from the Chris Horner who rode for Astana and Radioshack.

The reason this thread is long is because Chris was never really hammered over his transformation between 2007 and 2008. There was a massive and obvious step up - and he was already something like 37 years old by then. He is obviously talented and obviously a nice guy. But come on!

Lol! Yep! Couldn't agree more. You don't win consistently year after year, in THAT race doing so "clean", especially NOW, it's simply NOT humanly possible, regardless of what data or info someone tries to throw out. Wonderboy is a perfect example of that. He did NOTHING pre dope in the TDF, then "suddenly" somehow rattles off 7 wins in a row, and all he can try to claim is"I was on my bike training for 6 hours a day, I'm sorry you can't/don't believe in miracles" & he was "tested 976 times & never 1 positive" & ZERO didn't think he was lying? Many here(& around the world) bought into his lies and denials, some of us didn't. My buddy pointed out to me after Wonderboys 3rd TDF(I think it was), there's just no way HUMANLY possible for him to do what he did clean, it's just not.

Again, My opinion.

 

[Bolder]

The interesting thing about Horner is what might he have been on that both accomplished the miraculous transformation but didn't trigger crazy values or a Rumsas like meltdown. My guess is that he was already a great talent and a skilled racer but also a great responder, so perhaps just a mild program was the tipping point?

 

[Cookster15]

The interesting thing about Horner is what might he have been on that both accomplished the miraculous transformation but didn't trigger crazy values or a Rumsas like meltdown. My guess is that he was already a great talent and a skilled racer but also a great responder, so perhaps just a mild program was the tipping point?

Which is also why I believed in Cadel. Horner was barely able to hold Evans's wheel at Lotto.

 

[Pontiac]

Clinicians do your job........how can it be that a guy who has been a pro for 24 years, last raced 8 years ago and you guys can't nail him yet?

How many tests, how many investigations, how many years is it going to take?

Jeez, even Travis took a shot at him and couldn't bust him, but he kept trying years after he was done.

God forbid is it possible he was clean?

 

[SHAD0W93]

Clinicians do your job........how can it be that a guy who has been a pro for 24 years, last raced 8 years ago and you guys can't nail him yet?

How many tests, how many investigations, how many years is it going to take?

Jeez, even Travis took a shot at him and couldn't bust him, but he kept trying years after he was done.

God forbid is it possible he was clean?

The only thing he has going for him is that the Vuelta was his target and only GT and that the others didn’t think of him as a threat because he was a top 12-20 GT placement rider.

He was 41, his competition had experience riding multiple GTs a year, coming back from injury, and had no experience riding three weeks as a GT rider. His only top 10 came from a breakaway that without he would have finished 17th. His best result riding for himself the 3 weeks was 13th.

 

[Pontiac]

The only thing he has going for him is that the Vuelta was his target and only GT and that the others didn’t think of him as a threat because he was a top 12-20 GT placement rider.

He was 41, his competition had experience riding multiple GTs a year, coming back from injury, and had no experience riding three weeks as a GT rider. His only top 10 came from a breakaway that without he would have finished 17th. His best result riding for himself the 3 weeks was 13th.

He was never paid to be a GT rider....remember he was a pro...you do what they tell you to do. He had to convince his team that he could do it in that Vuelta and they barely believed him, remember Cancellara bagged the race half way through on him.

I know you younger guys think that it's all very scientific and they can plan out and hit peaks in performance and they know exactly what they are doing. That's a bunch of BS IMO......I never raced as long as Horner and well before all the "science" end of the sport.....but I can tell you that peaks in performance often surprise one...they can sneak up on you and unless you have the right mindset it can be difficult to take advantage off. But that feeling you get when you are on, and you know it and know how to take advantage of it...well it's magic. I had a few days like that over 10 years, just a few. My point is it's a lot more art than science and so many factors go into it.

He was at it for along time and was a very astute rider and I believe understood his body pretty damn well at that point in his career. So I'm not shocked that he could perform like that, he had an inkling but his competition sure didn't....even Nibali said they underestimated him. Don't forget he had been right there for a number of races earlier that year, Pais Vasco and Tireno if I remember right.

I and the rest of you have no idea if he was doping or not, but the facts seem to say otherwise.

 

[SHAD0W93]

He was never paid to be a GT rider....remember he was a pro...you do what they tell you to do. He had to convince his team that he could do it in that Vuelta and they barely believed him, remember Cancellara bagged the race half way through on him.

I know you younger guys think that it's all very scientific and they can plan out and hit peaks in performance and they know exactly what they are doing. That's a bunch of BS IMO......I never raced as long as Horner and well before all the "science" end of the sport.....but I can tell you that peaks in performance often surprise one...they can sneak up on you and unless you have the right mindset it can be difficult to take advantage off. But that feeling you get when you are on, and you know it and know how to take advantage of it...well it's magic. I had a few days like that over 10 years, just a few. My point is it's a lot more art than science and so many factors go into it.

He was at it for along time and was a very astute rider and I believe understood his body pretty damn well at that point in his career. So I'm not shocked that he could perform like that, he had an inkling but his competition sure didn't....even Nibali said they underestimated him. Don't forget he had been right there for a number of races earlier that year, Pais Vasco and Tireno if I remember right.

I and the rest of you have no idea if he was doping or not, but the facts seem to say otherwise.

They barely believed him because he had no backing evidence stating he could. He had his chance multiple times and the best he could do was 13th without a breakaway.

He rode well for a lot more than “a few days”.

Like I said, none of his competition thought of him as a threat because he never showed any history that he was. That year he finished 6th at TA and 2nd at Utah. The year you’re thinking of he finished 2nd TA, 9th ToBC, and 8th at ToC to lead up to a 13th at the Tour riding for himself.

The facts aren’t in his favor. Before Astana he beat up the American scene and couldn’t do much at large. Then started doing better and that exploded when he went to RadioShack, with Armstrong and JB there. Why wouldn’t US Postal pick him up if he was one of the top American riders like they did every other one.

 

[Ripper]

Umm, wasn't his name redacted in some small document? And didn't some folks throw just a little shade his way?

Here's the thing - if you know the system and have the tools/professional support, it is not that hard to do things within limits. In that sense anti-doping is a bit like an intelligence test (or a test of who you are friends with) and if you fail, well ...

It is rarely just one thing (i.e. just doping = success). Horner's always been very talented and tactically astute; however, his focus changed, I think things were a little less thermonuclear there for a while, etc. But yes, he moved teams and his performances changed at a time when physiologically they do change, just generally in the other direction. Horner was also not newer to cycling, so finding such a late spring is even less likely. Whatever though, I don't wish him anything negative and I enjoy his podcasts!

Something to ponder - if pharmstrong had not come back to race again and PO'd folks, a lot of stuff that hit the fan very likely never would have.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Something to ponder - if pharmstrong had not come back to race again and PO'd folks, a lot of stuff that hit the fan very likely never would have.

The Armstrong supporters would still be saying that the doubters are haters and just upset.

 

[Bolder]

Clinicians do your job........how can it be that a guy who has been a pro for 24 years, last raced 8 years ago and you guys can't nail him yet?

How many tests, how many investigations, how many years is it going to take?

Jeez, even Travis took a shot at him and couldn't bust him, but he kept trying years after he was done.

God forbid is it possible he was clean?

If he raced clean then IDK what he was doing wrong the 20 years before he won the Vuelta...

 

[Pontiac]

If he raced clean then IDK what he was doing wrong the 20 years before he won the Vuelta...

Like wise if he was doping for 24 years then I don't know how the hell he got away with it.

You guys crack me up.

 

[Cookster15]

Like wise if he was doping for 24 years then I don't know how the hell he got away with it.

You guys crack me up.

Please try harder to be objective. Just explain Chris's level at Lotto then the level he had riding at Radioshack when he was dropping his former team leader? Remember he wasn't young even at Lotto.