When is the smackdown on Chris Horner?

[blackcat]

As I mentioned before, ToC a couple of years ago almost led me to quit the sport. It was downright comical. Then, the whole Flandis/Lance thing went down and things seem to slow down a bit. Horner seems to be on that exact same form right now that he was in the 2011 ToC.

and Busche

 

[pmcg76]

Daryl Impey. He's an African who did two years at Barloworld, got a shot at a big team in his mid twenties and is now showing his potential at the age of 28.

If you think Froome's path to his current standing is comparable to the European riders who came through an established progression path with national federation backing, then you're daft.

This is the way arguments are often constructed here. An idealised standard is set - race circumstances on climbs are the same, career paths are the same - and any deviation for the norm can only be explained by doping.

Daryl Impey!!! Seriously that's your comparison. A mid ranking pro who won the Tour of Turkey who is now a mid ranking pro who got to spend a few days in the yellow at the Tour. Yeah, he and Froome are totally like for like.

I am tired of hearing about Froome's different path to the top. Joins a local continental team, then moves to a better team and finally moves to a PT team. That is a pretty normal career path for any pro.

Any deviation from the norm in the past has been explained by doping so that is a precedent. Chiappucci, Indurain, Rominger, Ugrumov, Riis, Richard, Armstrong, Rumsas, Hamilton, Landis, the list is endless, all these guys made big jumps performance wise mid to late career. What do they all have in common.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

was referring to his Ventoux and Ax-3 times. he already had the race won by Alpe d'Huez so who knows what he could have done if he needed more time.

ah I see doping only counts if you select which climbs and results to select. seriously lol.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

just to cherry pick a few...

2010 - 1st Basque Country
2011 - 2nd Basque Country
2012 - 2nd Tirreno Adriatico

how are these not relevant results? Most winners of the Basque tour are also GT winners. The same can be said of the winners of the last 5 editions of Tirreno.

ssst pls don't use rational arguments. this is the clinic. the laughing stock of cyclingnews

 

[Von Mises]

Any deviation from the norm in the past has been explained by doping so that is a precedent. Chiappucci, Indurain, Rominger, Ugrumov, Riis, Richard, Armstrong, Rumsas, Hamilton, Landis, the list is endless, all these guys made big jumps performance wise mid to late career. What do they all have in common.

I am not sure, do all these names belong to this list. Mostly I am thking of Landis and Indurain. Landis had several descent results before Postal and if his confession is true, he came 2nd Dauphine clean. Some people have said that Landis had natural talent, was it GC winning talent, I dont know. Indurain was also considered talented.

Edit: otherwise I agree with you.

 

[pmcg76]

I am not sure, do all these names belong to this list. Mostly I am thking of Landis and Indurain. Landis had several descent results before Postal and if his confession is true, he came 2nd Dauphine clean. Some people have said that Landis had natural talent, was it GC winning talent, I dont know. Indurain was also considered talented.

Edit: otherwise I agree with you.

Well actually most of the names on that list had shown more than Froome had before his transformation but they all had big jumps in performance at some point.

For example Rominger was leading the 87 Giro into the last week but then exploded and abandoned but he was right up there with Roche, Visentini etc. It wasn't until the 92 Vuelta though that he finally nailed a Top 10 GT and that was as winner.

 

[elduggo]

this is the clinic. the laughing stock of cyclingnews

caused Sky to sack Yates though, right??

 

[JimmyFingers]

My bad I thought this was the Chris Horner thread

 

[Orvieto]

This is silly. Age grouper marathoners are not elite level marathoners. If a 42 year old wins Boston then perhaps questions should be asked.

But this on its face is totally meaningless.

I'm not presenting this as a smoking gun. I'm presenting this as perspective on how extraordinary Horner's performance is. If a 42 year old who has never won a marathon wins Boston, questions should most definitely be asked.

 

[Nick C.]

Are there any examples in the history of sport of someone doing something similar to Horner at that sort of age? I certainly can't think of any.

Barry Bonds comes to mind.

 

[pedaling squares]

How did Horner stay out of his saddle for so long? Never seen anything like it.

I have. I've seen Riis ride like that. Pantani and Armstrong did too. And Ricco just 5 yrs ago. Nothing too unusual about that style of riding.

 

[Race Radio]

This is silly. Age grouper marathoners are not elite level marathoners. If a 42 year old wins Boston then perhaps questions should be asked.

But this on its face is totally meaningless.

Carlos Lope set the world record for the marathon at 38....but he had a really good refrigerator

 

[eleven]

Just a general question. Are we now at the point where cycling is an "anything goes" sport? Kinda like the Mr. Olympia bodybuilding contest. I mean, you have the badzilla donkey coming out of nowhere to become the world's greatest climber AND TT'er, and a 42 year old dude who's about to win the Vuelta. Wouldn't we all just be happier if everyone (fans, riders, governing bodies) just admit this is THE most dirty sport on the planet, and just move on?

Serious question.

I have no doubt that cycling is still a very dirty sport. Compared to the NFL (and probably soccer), however, cycling is squeaky clean. At least cycling acts like they are attempting to clean up.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Interesting analysis by danish veloropa.dk:

http://translate.google.com/transla...8&u=http://veloropa.dk/new-standards/&act=url

3 weeks of training and you can win a Grand Tour? Sounds like a new Chris Comical book.

Maybe I'm just overtrained.

 

[Race Radio]

What place would Horner have achieved in the Tour with this shape? I'm guessing between 3 and 5?

It is very possible he would have out climbed Froome and Quintana. The calculations are a bit challenging as there have been no 30+ minute MTF in the Vuelta so it is hard to compare. Angrilu should be the best indicator

 

[Samson777]

http://veloropa.dk/new-standards/


Forget everything about marginal gains, Break is the new Black!!

Perhaps not exactly breaking news. But another "blog", from the Danish guy, who also told the story about Horners crazy doping before the Vuelta. With focus on how little Horner have been training before this Vuelta. ( only 3-4 weeks training before the vuelta) And how well this preparation have worked out for him. You wonder why SKY did not come up with this..

edit: Can see some one already brought it up.

 

[Scott SoCal]

Carlos Lope set the world record for the marathon at 38....but he had a really good refrigerator

The fact that age group Q-times for marathons have significance in top level cycling seems a little over the top.

But hey, I've been in so SoCal masters crits that were real eye openers. Guys older than Horner....

 

[Scott SoCal]

It is very possible he would have out climbed Froome and Quintana. The calculations are a bit challenging as there have been no 30+ minute MTF in the Vuelta so it is hard to compare. Angrilu should be the best indicator

I think Horner will take the three seconds back from Nibs when he throws down 7 w/kg on the Angrilu.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Horner trolling the clinic for sure.

 

[BYOP88]

Barry Bonds comes to mind.

Why Bonds, why not Cy Young, Stan Musial or if you want current day what about Jamie Moyer?

 

[oldcrank]

With focus on how little Horner have been training before this Vuelta. ( only 3-4 weeks training before the vuelta) And how well this preparation have worked out for him. You wonder why SKY did not come up with this..

Three to four weeks? That seems like plenty, didn't Contador
win the 2008 Giro with just one week?

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

The fact that age group Q-times for marathons have significance in top level cycling seems a little over the top.

But hey, I've been in so SoCal masters crits that were real eye openers. Guys older than Horner....

I thought the qualifying times post was to highlight that there's a general acceptance that endurance declines from mid 30s in 40s, so that a guy in his 40s can be relatively as good as a guy in his 30s even if he's slower.

The relevance to Horner is that if he's this good aged 42, then he must have had even greater potential in his early 30s, when he would normally be expected to be in his prime.

Or conversely, the usual metrics of what is "believable" for an elite rider are too high for Horner, as if 6.0w/kg is the threshold for believable aged 28-30, then something lower is the threshold for an older guy, due to the ravages of Old Father Time.

 

[zigmeister]

I wonder if why then if Horner is so doped and can perform the 6.3-6.5w/kg the "experts" claim he is doing, why he just doesn't blast everybody, win each stage and not come in like 5th place on a big mountain finish?

Is that part of his master plan and tactics, he is so far ahead that he can calculate down to the second the timing when to attack to make it look not so suspicious, yet make it so exciting to keep closing the gap by seconds a day?

I guess the other guys that are finishing ahead of Horner must be taking massive doses of EPO, they should get popped anytime then also. Not sure how they ending up ahead of him.

 

[Samson777]

Three to four weeks? That seems like plenty, didn't Contador
win the 2008 Giro with just one week?

I don't know really, but if that's the case, I guess Horner have nothing to explain. Since Contador in 2008 was clean as a whistle So if he could do it, why should Horner not be able to do what he do?

 

[Samson777]

I wonder if why then if Horner is so doped and can perform the 6.3-6.5w/kg the "experts" claim he is doing, why he just doesn't blast everybody, win each stage and not come in like 5th place on a big mountain finish?

Is that part of his master plan and tactics, he is so far ahead that he can calculate down to the second the timing when to attack to make it look not so suspicious, yet make it so exciting to keep closing the gap by seconds a day?

I guess the other guys that are finishing ahead of Horner must be taking massive doses of EPO, they should get popped anytime then also. Not sure how they ending up ahead of him.

Agreed. All history shows, that if you use massive does of EPO, you get popped..