When is the smackdown on Chris Horner?

[131313]

after the Vuelta Horner is going home to the USA for ten days before flying back for the World Championships and Lombardia. Just needs to feed the dog, water the lawn etc.

If the implication is that Horner's coming back to the US to dope, you're way off base. First off, it's way more likely for a random test to be random when it's administered by USADA. Secondly, there's more doping infrastructure in place in Europe than the US. Lastly, frozen blood can be shipped anywhere without that much difficulty. It's not the rocket surgery some suggest.

The other implication is that Horner is somehow going to great lengths to avoid detection of some intricate doping program. In order for that to be the case, that would mean people were interested in catching him. That seems a bit naive on your part. He's a good story for the massed (one of few clean Yankees rises to the top, at 42!), Trek has a $relationship$ with the UCI, and Horner himself, once a squeaky wheel, learned to keep his mouth shut when his paycheck was late (and I'm sure the reminder sent to the team in the form of Frank Schleck didn't hurt). In short, I don't think he's out there running scared. If anything, his chances of testing hot are higher here.

My guess is that he just doesn't care that much about worlds and he wants to come home for a bit, neither of which would surprise me.

 

[Parker]

The list of stars was longer than that. Read the results.

Yeah, VanGardered is right up there with Giro winner Hampsten. DeGendt, up there with Rominger, right?

Hilarious.

I didn't say that those particular pairs were equivalent, although it was eight years after Hampsten's Giro win. He was a domestic pro (with the start-up USPS) by then. Van Garderen and De Gendt had come fifth in the Tour and third in the Giro the previous season.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

All I'm saying is that coming 14th in the TT, to me, is a better show of ability than winning a two up sprint in the Tour du Pont. Nothing more.

(It's 16th if you include Schumacher and Kohl - they got DQ'd)

Ability of what?
Frommes 16th TT at the time performance moved him up to 84th on GC at the time.

As an example Horner in that 96 TdP finished 17th in the stage 3b TT.
I doubt Horner was on the Dr. Ferrari 5 course diet of EPO, Testo, HGH, Cotisone & Steroids that we know Armstrong took to win.

At best I would say that the Froome/Horner comparisons show that neither was an obvious future GT contender.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

One thing that really strikes me was listening to Horner's comments on his age. He says he wants to race until 45 and then run a team.

Now, someone doped to the gills, as he obviously is (at least it seems obvious to me), would realize that's risky and not make claims about racing for 3-4 more years. But he seems confident of doing so. Couple this with Froome's absolute confidence that he'll be racing the Tour for the next 5-6 years and won't test positive.

I really think something's going on in cycling that has given these guys confidence they won't get caught no matter what.

 

[Race Radio]

If the implication is that Horner's coming back to the US to dope, you're way off base. First off, it's way more likely for a random test to be random when it's administered by USADA. Secondly, there's more doping infrastructure in place in Europe than the US. Lastly, frozen blood can be shipped anywhere without that much difficulty. It's not the rocket surgery some suggest.

The other implication is that Horner is somehow going to great lengths to avoid detection of some intricate doping program. In order for that to be the case, that would mean people were interested in catching him. That seems a bit naive on your part. He's a good story for the massed (one of few clean Yankees rises to the top, at 42!), Trek has a $relationship$ with the UCI, and Horner himself, once a squeaky wheel, learned to keep his mouth shut when his paycheck was late (and I'm sure the reminder sent to the team in the form of Frank Schleck didn't hurt). In short, I don't think he's out there running scared. If anything, his chances of testing hot are higher here.

My guess is that he just doesn't care that much about worlds and he wants to come home for a bit, neither of which would surprise me.

To be honest I didn't mean anything by it, I just thought it was interesting. Sure it can be spun as a doping related. It can also be seen as another example of Chris' unique approach.

I split my time between Europe and the west coast. I have blown off the Tour in the Pyrenees so I can fly 12 hours to see a movie with my kids and fly back 2 days later. I get it.

Now 7 w/kg for 17 minutes....ooof, that is a bit harder to figure out

 

[Race Radio]

You can repeat this canard as long as you want, it's still false. And once again, you're left a bit short of evidence.

Yeah, the Tour du Pont, who has had former winners like Erik Breukink, Greg Lemond, Raul Alcala, Mullet Ekimov, and Lance Armstrong.

Like the Tour of California, right?

Mullet Ekimov.

your are right, ToC is a parking lot crit compared to DuPont when it comes to start lists.

 

[proffate]

all those years Horner was racing domestically, he was winning everything. Not just the climbing races, flat ones too. A flyweight riding laps around the field in crits while entire teams were unable to chase him down. Maybe you think that's irrelevant to GT racing, but in any case it seems like a pretty good alibi for the dearth of GT results, i.e. the reason he didn't nab any GT podiums during that portion of his career is because... drum roll please... he didn't participate in any GTs.

 

[IndianCyclist]

Horner dropped all of the famed mountain sprinters Purito, Valverde & Nibali. at 42. In the Giro Cadel could not climb with Nibali at all & he is 36. Kloden another oldie is nowhere. Indurain retired at 33 because he could no longer follow. Even Pantani could not climb with the best after 30.

 

[proffate]

In the Giro Cadel could not climb with Nibali at all & he is 36. Kloden another oldie is nowhere. Indurain retired at 33 because he could no longer follow. Even Pantani could not climb with the best after 30.

I fail to see your point. Aside from Cadel those are all well-known dopers, maybe they just didn't switch to (or benefit from) the newer techniques as they came into vogue? Besides, Cadel got dropped plenty of times when he was younger, so how do you know his problem is age?

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Horner dropped all of the famed mountain sprinters Purito, Valverde & Nibali. at 42. In the Giro Cadel could not climb with Nibali at all & he is 36. Kloden another oldie is nowhere. Indurain retired at 33 because he could no longer follow. Even Pantani could not climb with the best after 30.

So, are you saying Purito, Nibali, and Valverde are clean? If not, how is Horner dropping them?

 

[Papa Kel]

Now, someone doped to the gills, as he obviously is (at least it seems obvious to me), would realize that's risky and not make claims about racing for 3-4 more years. But he seems confident of doing so. Couple this with Froome's absolute confidence that he'll be racing the Tour for the next 5-6 years and won't test positive.

I really think something's going on in cycling that has given these guys confidence they won't get caught no matter what.

This is exactly what has been on my mind all year. Why such confidence? Will what they're doing never be obvious through retrospective testing as most of the EPO era was? Or are they gettting assurances from up above? What is going on...

 

[go crazy]

Just a general question. Are we now at the point where cycling is an "anything goes" sport? Kinda like the Mr. Olympia bodybuilding contest. I mean, you have the badzilla donkey coming out of nowhere to become the world's greatest climber AND TT'er, and a 42 year old dude who's about to win the Vuelta. Wouldn't we all just be happier if everyone (fans, riders, governing bodies) just admit this is THE most dirty sport on the planet, and just move on?

Serious question.

 

[Orvieto]

Was just looking at the qualifying standards for the Boston Marathon and it put Horner's Vuelta performance into perspective. Boston qualifying times have been reset recently based on actual performance by age group. As a an 18-34 year old you need to run a 3:05 marathon to qualify. As a 40-44 year old you need to run a 3:15, a full 5% slower. That's a pretty good indicator of normal performance degradation by the time an endurance athlete hits his early 40s.
We also have some idea of what a 5% performance gap means in a Grand Tour. It should put you out the back in the autobus. Instead Horner is outclimbing everyone. If he's this good in his 40s, he must have been awesome in his prime.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Was just looking at the qualifying standards for the Boston Marathon and it put Horner's Vuelta performance into perspective. Boston qualifying times have been reset recently based on actual performance by age group. As a an 18-34 year old you need to run a 3:05 marathon to qualify. As a 40-44 year old you need to run a 3:15, a full 5% slower. That's a pretty good indicator of normal performance degradation by the time an endurance athlete hits his early 40s.
We also have some idea of what a 5% performance gap means in a Grand Tour. It should put you out the back in the autobus. Instead Horner is outclimbing everyone. If he's this good in his 40s, he must have been awesome in his prime.

First of all, I have no doubt that Horner is doping, just like everyone around him. Horner in his prime is the big question though because we may have never gotten a chance to see that in Europe.

 

[Ripper]

Ba ha ha ha ha!

I hope Chris crushes it on Saturday and just destroys the field FTW.

Bwa ha ha ha ha (cough cough)

 

[131313]

Now 7 w/kg for 17 minutes....ooof, that is a bit harder to figure out

As I mentioned before, ToC a couple of years ago almost led me to quit the sport. It was downright comical. Then, the whole Flandis/Lance thing went down and things seem to slow down a bit. Horner seems to be on that exact same form right now that he was in the 2011 ToC.

 

[Scott SoCal]

Was just looking at the qualifying standards for the Boston Marathon and it put Horner's Vuelta performance into perspective. Boston qualifying times have been reset recently based on actual performance by age group. As a an 18-34 year old you need to run a 3:05 marathon to qualify. As a 40-44 year old you need to run a 3:15, a full 5% slower. That's a pretty good indicator of normal performance degradation by the time an endurance athlete hits his early 40s.
We also have some idea of what a 5% performance gap means in a Grand Tour. It should put you out the back in the autobus. Instead Horner is outclimbing everyone. If he's this good in his 40s, he must have been awesome in his prime.

This is silly. Age grouper marathoners are not elite level marathoners. If a 42 year old wins Boston then perhaps questions should be asked.

But this on its face is totally meaningless.

 

[Scott SoCal]

So, are you saying Purito, Nibali, and Valverde are clean? If not, how is Horner dropping them?

Nibs looks tired. Valv looks like a very good bike rider who is prone to blowing himself up. Purito looks like he came in a little under cooked.

Horner? Looks like he's still in his late twenties (except for his hair line).

 

[elduggo]

Is there someone here who thinks he's clean? I've not seen it.

I have no idea. I was being sarcastic.

 

[will10]

Cam Wurf talks Horner.

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2013/09/cam-wurfs-vuelta-diary-new-buddy-in-the-bunch/

 

[TomasC]

I am genuinely interested what is Horner doing that the others are not. Surely he's not overusing EPO after what happened to Santambrogio and Di Luca?
Microdosing and transfusions - the rest probably heard about those as well?

 

[Alpechraxler]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repoxygen

would also explain the virus certain riders sufferd from.

 

[Pantani_lives]

What place would Horner have achieved in the Tour with this shape? I'm guessing between 3 and 5?

 

[AnotherDan]

Interesting analysis by danish veloropa.dk:

http://translate.google.com/transla...8&u=http://veloropa.dk/new-standards/&act=url

 

[pmcg76]

How is a race attended by all the top pros in the US and Europe a "minor stage race?"
WTF were Rominger, Dekker, etc. doing there? Half of that small team called "Festina" was there. Mapei, Rabobank, Motorola.

You know, Tour of the Gila type teams. Good grief. Some of you.

Moose, a race with 4 Euro teams is a relatively small race. The Tour of Alberta had as many PT teams this year, it is not a big race. Tour of Britain will have more PT teams, it is not a big race. Du Pont might have been the premiere race in the US but it ran concurrently with Romandy/Dunkirk/Trentino(all bigger races) and before that the Vuelta so the field never had any depth. A handful of big names there to keep the sponsor happy, that was it.