When is the smackdown on Chris Horner?

[Cyivel]

This thread needs to be renamed "Chris Horner just put the smack down."

Recognize.

Amen brother.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

IF Horner, Contador, Valverde, Purito, Porte, Roche, Froome all don't have a chance at winning a GT without doping. Can someone please tell me who can?
I'd really like to know.
Is there anyone, a single cyclist who you would think is capable of winning a GT in an Utopian clean peloton?

Lemond, he is only 52. Just 11 yrs older than Horner, who is just 13 yrs older than Nibali.
As the last clean GT winner he should have no problems to beat a clean pelton since age doesn´t matter anyway...

 

[Bobito]

The other riders only adopted excellence. Horner was born in it, molded by it.

American healthcare.

 

[TourOfTexas]

Does this mean Levi is coming out of retirement to challenge for the Tour 2014? Or should he wait until 2016?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

As usal you didn´t get it....

I understood ya very well foxxy.

Exposed is how I call you.

Mask off, face off.

 

[del1962]

Does this mean Levi is coming out of retirement to challenge for the Tour 2014? Or should he wait until 2016?

Levi has burned his bridges with RS/Trek read his affidavit and you will understand

 

[Stetoe]

IF Horner, Contador, Valverde, Purito, Porte, Roche, Froome all don't have a chance at winning a GT without doping. Can someone please tell me who can?
I'd really like to know.
Is there anyone, a single cyclist who you would think is capable of winning a GT in an Utopian clean peloton?

MOLLEMA.

 

[sniper]

MOLLEMA.

you mean the guy who had never seen the ventoux before this years TdF, yet in preparation to the Tour de France and the Giro d'Italia decides to spend April in Girona, Spain?
and climbs the ventoux with an output that Vayer qualifies as "suspicious"?

 

[Zeemax]

MOLLEMA.

Interesting that you mention Mollema. After he won his stage in the Vuelta he made it clear to an interviewer on Eurosport that he did not feel up to contending for a high place finish in the GC after his exploits in July, where he finished sixth overall. But yet Valverde who was 8th overall and Rodriguez who was 3rd overall in July were both in contention for the overall in the Vuelta, finishing in the top five. Highly questionable the latter two individuals.

 

[Samson777]

Interesting that you mention Mollema. After he won his stage in the Vuelta he made it clear to an interviewer on Eurosport that he did not feel up to contending for a high place finish in the GC after his exploits in July, where he finished sixth overall. But yet Valverde who was 8th overall and Rodriguez who was 3rd overall in July were both in contention for the overall in the Vuelta, finishing in the top five. Highly questionable the latter two individuals.

You think it is questionable if Purito and Valverde is on more than bread and water, or not?

 

[VP2013]

Very little Horner coverage

It is shocking how little coverage the sport news is giving to Chris Horner's victory. I guess this is due to the level of mistrust that Lance and fellow dopers have done to this sport. These idiots have destroyed pro cycling.

 

[Zweistein]

It is shocking how little coverage the sport news is giving to Chris Horner's victory. I guess this is due to the level of mistrust that Lance and fellow dopers have done to this sport. These idiots have destroyed pro cycling.

Future generations can thank Pat and a whole slew of riders, ,who got their money, for suppressed wages and difficulty in finding sponsors. This could have been fixed after the Festina crisis in 1998 but it was all swepted under the rug in favor of "protecting the image of cycling". Even Jens Voigt, who was on the riders delegation during this years tdf, was against release of the retested positive samples from 1998 TDF. Anyone want to guess who wore the mountain jersey during that tour and would have been tested? There is hardly anyone in the sport who has the sport in their interest. Most are just trying to make a buck while they are at it and have no concern with the mess left to the next generation.

 

[nepetalactone]

Why you think i bolded the 2nd part of the Question?

The original question by RIP:30 was: "Why do pros usually decline and stop in their mid to late 30s?"

You bolded the 'stop in their mid-late thirties' part and went on for a solid paragraph about them stopping because they decline (and gave some examples). The original question recognizes retirement due to decrease in performance, but muses over the mechanism. Never once did you mention the actual reason for declining, merely that it occurs. You also spend some time on tangents, e.g. Horner improving with age while most decline. I agree that Horner is an anomoly here, but it was really completely unrelated to the original question as, once again, you didn't actually speak to the mechanisms for such a thing to occur.

I'm just trying to be helpful here - in experienced debate begging the question or avoiding questions with irrelevant answers does nothing but expose one's weakness.

...Using condescending smiley faces when your bluff is called doesn't help your position either.

 

[Animal]

The comments under the article on Horner's "victory" on cyclingnews.com main page are depressing.

It's like 2007 all over again.

Same same same arguments used against people who are suspicious about a 42 year old winning an extremely difficult edition of a 3 week grand tour.

I'm depressed. This sport is stupid.

 

[Nicko.]

That's easy, he is "on" whatever Froome is "on".
...
As to why the rest of the team was at a lesser level, who knows? Maybe they didn't want to spend the money? Maybe they didn't trust something new?

No, I was just pointing out reality. Whatever Sky are on, evidently the secret is out, just like I predicted. When doping riders like Froome and Horner can thumb their noses and confidently proclaim they will never test positive, the mutancy just got kicked up a notch. Especially when they are kicking a$$ with times that rival the most doped up EPO times.
...

I thought the consensus was that the select few Sky riders got an advanced/expensive/state-of-the-art chemical boost of elevated 3-week W/kg, no?

Are Radioshack spending those substantial resources on the promising/to-build-on Horner?

If the argument is that Horner has nothing to lose and gives himself a well needed retirement plan by pulling all stops in the grand finale, he shouldn't be able to finance it by himself, no?

BTW, I am not arguing he's clean, not at all. I just don't see how he can be on the exotic juice Froome is claimed to burn.

Discuss.

Bump.

Is the Froome juice expensive/exotic/very delicate to administer?
Are RS supplying/financing only Horner, a total PR disaster? Why?
If not, can Horner pick up his own tab? How?

 

[gooner]

Just finished catching up with today's final stage. Unbelievable that Kirby in commentary said that no one dares to dope today all because of Contador getting busted in 2010. That was part of his defence for Horner's win.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

The comments under the article on Horner's "victory" on cyclingnews.com main page are depressing.

It's like 2007 all over again.

Same same same arguments used against people who are suspicious about a 42 year old winning an extremely difficult edition of a 3 week grand tour.

I'm depressed. This sport is stupid.

lawn bowling is the shiznit

 

[Cyivel]

Kirby was practically fellating him on air a few days ago whilst defending him.

 

[FGimondi]

Just finished catching up with today's final stage. Unbelievable that Kirby in commentary said that no one dares to dope today all because of Contador getting busted in 2010. That was part of his defence for Horner's win.

Kirby knows as much about cycling as you would expect a motorbike commentator to do, but his competence, or lack thereof, isn't really the issue.

The problem is rather that he is prepeared to pass judgment on cycling issues while beeing a complete novice with regard to the ins and outs of the sport. So he and others in the media become integral parts of the problem this sport is facing and, probably, without meaning to. It's a problem the entire brittish media has faced with cyclings meteoric rise from relative obscurity in the past couple of years. However, it's important to remember that it is guys like him who kept Lance Armstrong in business for over a decade.

As Martin Luther King said;
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."

 

[Animal]

lawn bowling is the shiznit

But it's BORING.

 

[webbie146]

The comments under the article on Horner's "victory" on cyclingnews.com main page are depressing.

It's like 2007 all over again.

Same same same arguments used against people who are suspicious about a 42 year old winning an extremely difficult edition of a 3 week grand tour.

I'm depressed. This sport is stupid.

Haha more like the fans that watch it. They are so ignorant that they fall for the same 'train harder, more focused' trick every time. No matter how many times they get slapped in the face through the years, they will stay in a ignorant state lol

I mean c'mon I love cycling and I think Horner is a great guy, but don't pretend like he does this on wather and bread right. How anyone can believe a 42 year old can win arguably the hardest GT in a year without PED's is beyond me.

 

[PosterBill]

There's a lot of interesting speculation here but I just don't see this case as shut and closed as many others. There are just too many variables when comparing past performance especially when you are not race leader. I think the most interesting argument was the 2010 (or was it 2011?) TOC when Floyd was doing his talking and all the RS top guys were struggling. I'd like to see some direct evidence linking Horner to Dr. Ferrari or some other doping doc. I'd also be interested to see some Time Trial data on Horner. He's seems to have been remarkably consistently bad in Time Trials throughout his career yet it (non scientific) always seemed doping paid off the most in the time trials ie Contador. And all the talk about what an extraordinary performance this Vuelta has been yet he was only winning by 3 seconds before yesterday. And you had 4-5 guys that were really close for a long time...

 

[webbie146]

There's a lot of interesting speculation here but I just don't see this case as shut and closed as many others. There are just too many variables when comparing past performance especially when you are not race leader. I think the most interesting argument was the 2010 (or was it 2011?) TOC when Floyd was doing his talking and all the RS top guys were struggling. I'd like to see some direct evidence linking Horner to Dr. Ferrari or some other doping doc. I'd also be interested to see some Time Trial data on Horner. He's seems to have been remarkably consistently bad in Time Trials throughout his career yet it (non scientific) always seemed doping paid off the most in the time trials ie Contador. And all the talk about what an extraordinary performance this Vuelta has been yet he was only winning by 3 seconds before yesterday. And you had 4-5 guys that were really close for a long time...

6 seconds faster then Contador on the Angliru... yea

Also beats a young guy like Nibali in a 17 minute effort which he should clearly struggle in since his V02 max should have gone down.

 

[Zweistein]

The original question by RIP:30 was: "Why do pros usually decline and stop in their mid to late 30s?"

You bolded the 'stop in their mid-late thirties' part and went on for a solid paragraph about them stopping because they decline (and gave some examples). The original question recognizes retirement due to decrease in performance, but muses over the mechanism. Never once did you mention the actual reason for declining, merely that it occurs. You also spend some time on tangents, e.g. Horner improving with age while most decline. I agree that Horner is an anomoly here, but it was really completely unrelated to the original question as, once again, you didn't actually speak to the mechanisms for such a thing to occur.

I'm just trying to be helpful here - in experienced debate begging the question or avoiding questions with irrelevant answers does nothing but expose one's weakness.

...Using condescending smiley faces when your bluff is called doesn't help your position either.

Why does someone have to state the mechanism? People just get old. Here is a list of TDF winners and the age they won their tours.

http://www.letour.fr/2012/TDF/HISTO/us/palmares.html

If you look at the list, 34 the age that Evans was is pretty old. Riis was considered old at 32. Zoetemelk was very old at 34. The Great Eddy Merckx won his last Tour de France at 29. I don't know why this even needs to be contested. If you assume that every pro starts their career when they are 18, Horner was then won a grand tour 44% further into his career than the oldest TDF winner. It is pretty ridiculous.

 

[jonovision_man]

I don't have any doubt this is a fishy result... but what about the how?

Are the doping controls not there? Is the UCI turning the other cheek? Are they still finding ways around the system? Are the old guys using doped initial bio-passport levels to kill younger guys without the same advantage?

How is this still going on, after all the sport has been through?

Sorry to end every sentence in a question mark.

jono