When is the smackdown on Chris Horner?

[blackcat]

Ok, then I'll say it instead. Just to make sure it is on the record.

Horner is doping.

Dave.

I like Chris,

its like looking in a mirror

 

[blackcat]

I gotta say, I love Chris Horner, Cheesburgers & Smiles, chase it down with some Beet Root Juice.. Giro & Vuelta this year, the double.

So far so good for Horner in terms of the so called "smackdown"...hope he shows good form at TA ;-)

respect.

i luve horner, big fan of horner and his new manager booke caden

 

[blackcat]

I expect Horner to top 5 if not podium at TA.

i expect chris orner to be hawesome

 

[Master50]

(1) You lie to yourself. I asked you at least twice now, how can CH beat or come close to the doping record times? How can he push the highest W/Kg now at age 40+?
I know why you ignore it, b/c if you would really think of it you would come to the only possible conclusion: CH is doping.

(2) Just wow! You blame the fans/critics/observers? Omg!... We believed in the riders after every scandal. But once it was enough. I think even you should get that: Blame the riders for this situation.

By what mechanism? EPO? his HC is not that high. I have heard it does not drop as fast as one doctor says but he only says suspicious.

No one is saying you should not have suspicions but they are suspicions and not proof. For CH to be a doper there needs to be evidence that meets the criteria. there isn't. All they can do is watch him and if they don't catch him he is innocent under the rules. These are facts that stand up in a sports court. You have not provided evidence of doping that can result in a ban and I am sure they are trying.
As for blaming fans/critics/observers? why exactly did I say that you arrive at that conclusion? I want accountability for your accusations. Just provide proof if you are going to declare anyone a cheater otherwise stick to inference. I believe. or to me this is unbelievable.

 

[DirtyWorks]

For CH to be a doper there needs to be evidence that meets the criteria. there isn't.

Haha. There's evidence. "Never tested positive" has multiple meanings as a result. Chris is never tested positive.

 

[mewmewmew13]

Haha. There's evidence. "Never tested positive" has multiple meanings as a result. Chris is never tested positive.

'positive' for what is also open to debate..
drugs
brains
common sense
...

 

[Benotti69]

By what mechanism?.....................................................

......




........

You sure aint the master of logic, jeez, 42 winning a GT and a Vuelta with the Spanish Armada all doped on home territory aint done on bread and water.

But as they say CH 'never tested positive', but then neither did Armstrong, Millar, Riis, Pantani, Virenque, Valverde, Scarponi and the list goes on and on and on and on and on............

 

[Dear Wiggo]

You sure aint the master of logic, jeez, 42 winning a GT and a Vuelta with the Spanish Armada all doped on home territory aint done on bread and water.

But as they say CH 'never tested positive', but then neither did Armstrong, Millar, Riis, Pantani, Virenque, Valverde, Scarponi and the list goes on and on and on and on and on............

It's highly unlikely anyone tests positive the first time they dope. So even the ones that do end up testing positive, spend all that time doping without testing positive.

 

[Catwhoorg]

But but but the number of tested positive people who say that it was their first (and only) time doping, suggests that the first time is probably the riskiest...

[/sarcasm]


At best, a robust and well managed OOC and IC testing program limits opportunities and heightens risk. (Skewing risk/reward by adjusting both).

Many testing programs throughout the world would fail to reach the level of robust.

 

[RiccoDinko]

Haha. There's evidence. "Never tested positive" has multiple meanings as a result. Chris is never tested positive.

Got a link to the evidence?

 

[RiccoDinko]

You sure aint the master of logic, jeez, 42 winning a GT and a Vuelta with the Spanish Armada all doped on home territory aint done on bread and water.
QUOTE]

I believe he won on Cheeseburgers an Soda Pop


Ok, if CH beat a juiced field with stronger team support, what is the beef?

He just beating them at their own game, right?

 

[Benotti69]

You sure aint the master of logic, jeez, 42 winning a GT and a Vuelta with the Spanish Armada all doped on home territory aint done on bread and water.

I believe he won on Cheeseburgers an Soda Pop


Ok, if CH beat a juiced field with stronger team support, what is the beef?

He just beating them at their own game, right?

He is beating them at their own game. I dont believe the game should be played in this manner.

 

[DirtyWorks]

You sure aint the master of logic, jeez, 42 winning a GT and a Vuelta with the Spanish Armada all doped on home territory aint done on bread and water.
QUOTE]

I believe he won on Cheeseburgers an Soda Pop


Ok, if CH beat a juiced field with stronger team support, what is the beef?

He just beating them at their own game, right?

A little more detailed follow-up to Benotti's post above:

There's no more "game" if viewers simply accept doping. The competition changes from on the course (as defined by some rules that might be enforced) to secret doping protocols. If the federation continues to permit doping then it's just entertainment wrestling. That's okay, but don't pretend it's a sport and a game is being played with a random outcome.

And then there are the other consequences. Revisit the story of Tammy Thomas. The American federation was perfectly okay with the steroid doping, until they weren't. And now? http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/cycling/2013/03/01/doping-scandal-haunts-tammy-thomas/1958053/

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

I like Chris,

its like looking in a mirror

respect.

i luve horner, big fan of horner and his new manager booke caden

i expect chris orner to be hawesome

Geez... Sober again?
Guess one beer too much...

Cheers

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

By what mechanism? EPO? his HC is not that high. I have heard it does not drop as fast as one doctor says but he only says suspicious.

No one is saying you should not have suspicions but they are suspicions and not proof. For CH to be a doper there needs to be evidence that meets the criteria. there isn't. All they can do is watch him and if they don't catch him he is innocent under the rules. These are facts that stand up in a sports court. You have not provided evidence of doping that can result in a ban and I am sure they are trying.
As for blaming fans/critics/observers? why exactly did I say that you arrive at that conclusion? I want accountability for your accusations. Just provide proof if you are going to declare anyone a cheater otherwise stick to inference. I believe. or to me this is unbelievable.

Cute summary of what you repeat now and then....
But what has this post to do with my quotes?
... You also didn´t answer my Qs, again...

 

[RiccoDinko]

A little more detailed follow-up to Benotti's post above:

There's no more "game" if viewers simply accept doping. The competition changes from on the course (as defined by some rules that might be enforced) to secret doping protocols. If the federation continues to permit doping then it's just entertainment wrestling. That's okay, but don't pretend it's a sport and a game is being played with a random outcome.

And then there are the other consequences. Revisit the story of Tammy Thomas. The American federation was perfectly okay with the steroid doping, until they weren't. And now? http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/cycling/2013/03/01/doping-scandal-haunts-tammy-thomas/1958053/

Thanks for sharing, that is a scary read. I thought that stuff about growing beards was a myth, guess not.

The more I dig into cycling racing, the more I realize it is entertainment. I think there's competition, it's not fully rigged like WWE, but it's not a fair race. Teams like Sky have huge budget, more advance training, and nutrition Even if you remove the doping element, they still play favorities. Rumors of Cav hitching a tow in the Giro, or relaxing the time cutoffs for certain riders, it's a show!!

 

[DirtyWorks]

Thanks for sharing, that is a scary read. I thought that stuff about growing beards was a myth, guess not.

The more I dig into cycling racing, the more I realize it is entertainment. I think there's competition, it's not fully rigged like WWE, but it's not a fair race.

I don't know. Horner makes it pretty close to the WWE at this point.

Kind of the opposite though as the male riders are extremely thin for months and can produce enormous power without racing. This is unlike any other time in the history of cycling. Seems legit.

If the doping were controlled, then maybe other issues like fixing races and in-race shenanigans can be addressed.

 

[RiccoDinko]

I don't know. Horner makes it pretty close to the WWE at this point.

Kind of the opposite though as the male riders are extremely thin for months and can produce enormous power without racing. This is unlike any other time in the history of cycling. Seems legit.

If the doping were controlled, then maybe other issues like fixing races and in-race shenanigans can be addressed.

Horner has been a solid racer the majority of his career, just riddled with team politics, injuries, lack of team support. Radio Shack didn't even support him in the Vuelta until the stage 10 victory. He gets bad rap in my book. Sure he's probably juicing, he comes from a juicing era, juicing teams, seems very probable to me. Seems very probable Contador won his GTs juiced up, he's a fan darling, why?

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Horner has been a solid racer the majority of his career, just riddled with team politics, injuries, lack of team support.

Greg Lemond almost dies from gun shot wounds, and came back to win the Tour on the ADR (i.e., bunch of nobodies) team. This, of course, after fighting off Hinault (a teammate) to win his first Tour. Talk about team politics, injuries, and lack of team support...

See what *actual* talent accomplishes? All you're seeing here is dopity-dope-dope. And hoo boy it must be some good stuff. Guys are losing bucket loads of weight and gaining power plus endurance and recovery. Winning a GT at 42 is hilarious.

John Swanson

 

[DirtyWorks]

Horner has been a solid racer the majority of his career...

If you are willing to forgive the doping, then I'm not sure what expectations you can have about any grand tour. It'll be won from the doctor's bag of dope and the federation's cooperation, or lack thereof.

Some of us would rather not have that be the game and instead prefer to see human-scale performance. Unless you watch old footage, it's impossible to know what that looks like. It's very exciting. Horner's performances are not that....

 

[MarkvW]

If you are willing to forgive the doping, then I'm not sure what expectations you can have about any grand tour. It'll be won from the doctor's bag of dope and the federation's cooperation, or lack thereof.

Some of us would rather not have that be the game and instead prefer to see human-scale performance. Unless you watch old footage, it's impossible to know what that looks like. It's very exciting. Horner's performances are not that....

Ahhh...... the 'good old days of pro cycling!' Strychnine, amphetamines, and testosterone. And the sweet pleasures of Pot Belge....

"Things were much better back when I was racing." Tom Simpson.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Horner has been a solid racer the majority of his career, just riddled with team politics, injuries, lack of team support.

Yeah, the team support went so low , that he couldn´t even keep up with the clean riders like Casar and Moncoutie... Leaving europe with almost no wins and no contract (on best sporting age!) his first stint....
And then he comes back for a 2nd round and starts winning at age 35+...
I don´t understand how people can fall in the same trap again, after Armstrong happend...
Man, admit it, Horners story stinks even more than Armstrongs.
He is just a hardcore doper. No more, no less...

 

[Master50]

Cute summary of what you repeat now and then....
But what has this post to do with my quotes?
... You also didn´t answer my Qs, again...

Is there a god? prove it.
Does CH dope? prove it.
take your choice.
Your questions are inane. I have more than adequately explained why I find your position offensive.
I am consistent. Innocent until proven guilty. It is the fist principle of officiating, inspecting, which are my avocation and vocation. If I acted as you do on this subject. Declaring a person guilty based entirely on faith I would have been suspended as an official and fired in my job.
So why do you think I owe you any response other than what I have already consistently stuck to?
I believe you consistently violate the so called Clinic posting policy with these declarations too. Mods can decide if that is so. Bye

 

[RiccoDinko]

If you are willing to forgive the doping, then I'm not sure what expectations you can have about any grand tour. It'll be won from the doctor's bag of dope and the federation's cooperation, or lack thereof.

Some of us would rather not have that be the game and instead prefer to see human-scale performance. Unless you watch old footage, it's impossible to know what that looks like. It's very exciting. Horner's performances are not that....

Come one DirtyWorks, it's not as simple as best doctor. Natural factors, training, teamwork, diet, luck, tactics, mental strength, the course, they all play a factor.

He's very suspect, but this is part of the sport. Froome is suspect, Valverde is supect, the entire peloton is suspect.. Who do I believe, who do I cheer for? Is there a clean list? My favorite rider is Andrew Talansky, I'm pretty sure he's clean. I also really like Contador, he was dirty, but I think he's clean now. Horner, I'm not sure, suspect, but it's possible, he's lean, rides like 150-200 miles a day in the heat, loves to climb, had a tired Vuelta field, if he's on something, it's same stuff team sky is on.

 

[RiccoDinko]

Yeah, the team support went so low , that he couldn´t even keep up with the clean riders like Casar and Moncoutie... Leaving europe with almost no wins and no contract (on best sporting age!) his first stint....
And then he comes back for a 2nd round and starts winning at age 35+...
I don´t understand how people can fall in the same trap again, after Armstrong happend...
Man, admit it, Horners story stinks even more than Armstrongs.
He is just a hardcore doper. No more, no less...

He's a late Bloomer What are your credentials to judge in this matter? What do you mean after Armstrong happened, didn't Indurain win five straight tours. Didn't he get help by Conconi? This did not start or end with LA, he may have perfected it though. This started 100yrs ago, the riders have always looked for the biggest edge they can find. We need to bust them, suspend them, give them life, give team workers, and doctors life. Draw a line, and take no prisoners, or this will never go away, the penalty needs to be greater than the gain.