Which team was the biggest fail in stage 9?

[DenisMenchov]

Saxo had a good plan when they sent Kreuziger and Rodgers, but Movistar then tried to put Valverde and the plan was doomed.

 

[Cimber]

Saxo had a good plan when they sent Kreuziger and Rodgers, but Movistar then tried to put Valverde and the plan was doomed.

Well wasnt Valverdes presence that was the main problem, it was that he pulled Froome with him. He never ever should have done that. And they also had Costa up there already

 

[Escarabajo]

I say Saxo. for some reason the option of attacking to break or at lease test Valverde and Quitana seemed like the obvious opportunity assuming Movistar were spent with all the work.

I cant call Movistars tactics a fail because in the end they removed the then 2 GC guy for their benefit. however if Movistar's thought was to try and surge Froome into the red with Quintana trying to mix tempo and pace then why didnt they continue that with the lot of them at the front? More guys doing the same would have hurt more riders more often simple.

But alas, not knowing what it is like making decisions after 5 hours in full anaerobic back to back days, one can only assume practical cognitive function was in the red zone as well.

Things happen fast when people are very tired. So all options that we talk about in this forum just reduce to one:"Just finish the stage minimizing losses".

 

[burning]

I think at some point on the valley Jesus, Rogers, Costa and Castroviejo were in the second group. (Feel free to correct me)

Why the f*ck Valverde attacked with Plaza and pulled Froome up to second group?
Why the f*ck Saxo pulled in the valley briefly instead of sending Kreuziger to second group? (If Froome chases him, he wastes energy)
Why the f*ck Movi pulled in last 3 hours instead of sending men ahead and let Froome do the all work?
Dont forget that Froome only put his nose into wind on last 130 km when Quintana attacked on the final climb

They really exploited that situtation perfectly and Porte is gone, time to celebrate

 

[Dutchsmurf]

I think at some point on the valley Jesus, Rogers, Costa and Castroviejo were in the second group. (Feel free to correct me)

Why the f*ck Valverde attacked with Plaza and pulled Froome up to second group?
Why the f*ck Saxo pulled in the valley briefly instead of sending Kreuziger to second group? (If Froome chases him, he wastes energy)
Why the f*ck Movi pulled in last 3 hours instead of sending men ahead and let Froome do the all work?
Dont forget that Froome only put his nose into wind on last 130 km when Quintana attacked on the final climb

They really exploited that situtation perfectly and Porte is gone, time to celebrate

You are right about that front group, although I think Kreuziger was ahead too at some point. Not sure tho. The situation was perfect until Valverde screwed it up for sure.
Why Valverde pulled Froome with him is easy to explain, Valverde will settle for second place.
Saxo pulled because Valverde was dragging Froome away from them.
Anything that happened after that just can't be explained.


Basically what it all comes down to is this: What is the point of having multiple riders in the top 10 when you aren't going to use them? The whole point of having those riders there is that you can send them in an attack and force others to work. Sunday there was a perfect situation for that to happen. But the way it was ridden, Kreuziger, Costa and Quintana might as well have been half an hour back. That way they might have saved some energy on earlier stages and be more useful later this Tour.

 

[mopar769]

you like others seem to not understand the concept of teammates attacking.

If you send Quintana/ Costa up the road then the gc leader - Valverde, doesn't waste any energy. The rest of the team stays with him.

If Froome does attack in response then he has to pace the next 70k on his own. While Valverde has a whole team to do so for him. Froome would likely aknowledge this and drop back to the main group, and everything would go back to square 1 only Froome will have wasted energy. Repeat this 3 or 4 times and froome loses more energy.

Valverde meanwhile loses nothing.

So no, those calling for an attack were not asking Movistar to sacrifice the position of their gc leader. Or to waste any energy. They wasted more energy pulling the main group for 3 hours.

Actually, I do understand the concept. At least I do in it's basic form, but I do appreciate your efforts to flesh out the intricacies. My point was that the concept would only work if the entire team was committed to seeing their leader in Yellow. Watching that stage unfold led me to believe that more than a few of the "Superdomestiques" were more interested in protecting their top ten GC status than stripping the jersey off Froome's back. To think their aren't a few of them eyeing the lower rungs on the podium would be unrealistic.

 

[wwabbit]

If Movistar sent Rui or Quintana up the road then slowed the train down froome would have risked losing 5 or 6 minutes to Quintana. He would have had to pull or risked losing the entire TDF.

Wouldn't Saxo Bank will be chasing this move down, since they would want that #1 spot too? Movistar now has a good chance to lock out #2 and #3 on the podium, why would they want to throw that away in what is probably going to be a futile attempt for #1?

 

[Cimber]

Wouldn't Saxo Bank will be chasing this move down, since they would want that #1 spot too? Movistar now has a good chance to lock out #2 and #3 on the podium, why would they want to throw that away in what is probably going to be a futile attempt for #1?

2nd or 3rd is nothing compared to no. 1. 2nd is just the first loser. I am pretty sure Saxo wouldnt chase Quintana but let Froome do it.

Anyways, Fuglsong pretty much says the same thing me and Hitch have been trying to say: they all rode for 2nd, especially the move Movistar made in the valley puzzles him. He is especially after Movistar, but he also criticises Belkin and Saxo somewhat. I agree with him for once.

http://www.sporten.dk/cykling/fuglsang-koerer-i-virkelig-kun-for-andenpladsen

 

[wwabbit]

Saxo wants first too, so they would have chased Quintana down.

 

[Cimber]

Saxo wants first too, so they would have chased Quintana down.

They want 1st indeed, but they dont get 1st by doing Froome's work for him. They would let Froome and Sky do the work and then hope to be able to profit from that. They tough part is breaking Froome. They would much rather have to catch time on Quintana than on Froome. Just as Movistar should much rather wanna catch time on Kreuziger than on Froome.

 

[wwabbit]

And there was no Sky to do the work. If Froome refuses to work, do you really think Contador would be content to simply sit there and watch Quintana go up the road on his own? No, he would be sending Krueziger and Rogers to the front to up the pace.

 

[Cimber]

And there was no Sky to do the work. If Froome refuses to work, do you really think Contador would be content to simply sit there and watch Quintana go up the road on his own? No, he would be sending Krueziger and Rogers to the front to up the pace.

Kreuziger and Rogers were already up the road, so Saxo had their part secured. They could just sit back and watch Froome either work on his own or fall back to his shattered team only to see them implode even futher. In situations like that its always up to the yellow jersey and its team to do the work.

 

[wwabbit]

Kreuziger and Rogers being already up the road was not the situation Hitch was talking about.

 

[Cimber]

Kreuziger and Rogers being already up the road was not the situation Hitch was talking about.

the actual situation in the valley was that Movistar had Costa up the road and Saxo had Kreuziger and Rogers. In my opinion Valverde and Movistar then had a totally tactical meltdown when Valverde decided to pull Froome up to that group.

 

[Pricey_sky]

the actual situation in the valley was that Movistar had Costa up the road and Saxo had Kreuziger and Rogers. In my opinion Valverde and Movistar then had a totally tactical meltdown when Valverde decided to pull Froome up to that group.

I agree with this, I'm not sure what went through their minds. Perhaps they didn't think Froome would follow on their wheels and would try to close slowly or maybe the situation of Froome being isolated went to their heads and they forgot to race sensibly.

 

[The Hitch]

And there was no Sky to do the work. If Froome refuses to work, do you really think Contador would be content to simply sit there and watch Quintana go up the road on his own? No, he would be sending Krueziger and Rogers to the front to up the pace.

If Froome refuses to do the work, Saxo can refuse to do the work and say - we were never going to get 1st anyway.

Or they can try and send a saxo rider up the road and if that rider gets away froome has to do the work.

 

[karlboss]

If Froome refuses to do the work, Saxo can refuse to do the work and say - we were never going to get 1st anyway.

Or they can try and send a saxo rider up the road and if that rider gets away froome has to do the work.

This is the smartest option and funnily enough it's smartest for Quintana to wait for the help.

 

[Cimber]

Or they can try and send a saxo rider up the road and if that rider gets away froome has to do the work.

Which was actually the case in the valley, only it was Costa and not Quintana, but both Movistar and Saxo had super doms up the road. But, alas, then Valverde decided to ride for 2nd and pull Froome up

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

the actual situation in the valley was that Movistar had Costa up the road and Saxo had Kreuziger and Rogers. In my opinion Valverde and Movistar then had a totally tactical meltdown when Valverde decided to pull Froome up to that group.

From a tactical point of view you are right, but you are forgetting Valverde's lack of love for Alberto here.

To keep it mild.

 

[del1962]

If Froome refuses to do the work, Saxo can refuse to do the work and say - we were never going to get 1st anyway.

Or they can try and send a saxo rider up the road and if that rider gets away froome has to do the work.

If we are talking about in the vally both Porte and Kennaugh where only a minute adrift at that time, so I expect Froome would not work until they where in the group (I don't think he could expect them to work immediately though)

 

[Cimber]

If we are talking about in the vally both Porte and Kennaugh where only a minute adrift at that time, so I expect Froome would not work until they where in the group (I don't think he could expect them to work immediately though)

No at that time they were 2 mins behind. They, however, later in the valley had 1 min. Still would be a good situation cos the team was already shattered so it would only implode even more (which is also did on the last 2 climbs)

 

[Christian]

Andy Schleck about Movistar tactics:

"At the Hourquette, it was difficult to attack Froome. Because if he had taken the front of the race, I don't think that Valverde could have followed. I looked at him and he didn't seem to me at his best. I even saw him telling Quintana to stop attacking, even though I don't speek Spanish I imagine that's what he told him"

Who made the best impression behind Froome?

"Quintana. After Ax-3-Domaines I would have said Valverde, but now I would say Quintana."

http://www.lequotidien.lu/les-sports/46542.html

 

[Cimber]

To those who said that Saxo would do the same as Movistar on stage 9 (i.e. riding for 2nd): today shows that they wouldn't (they aren't pulling in front with Valverde behind).

 

[User Guide]

Seeing Froome is seemingly mentally very weak,and physically flagging a bit,will teams look back on this day with more regret than before.I should hope so.