Who do you think is clean?

[Darryl Webster]

I havent trawled through this entire thread but TBH I dont think I`d put money ony any 2nd or 3rd year onwards pro being entirely clean.
"Recovery doping" as I`ve seen it described will be commen place.
Given the advantages of modern era drug being ( consertivly?) 3..5% were does a "clean" rider get that back?
Due to the tactical nature of the sport It will always remain possible ( but difficult) for a clean rider to pop up with a one day or stage victory but in a GT you just cant "give away" 3..5% and remain in contention. They just dont make tactical mistakes that big ( or at least very rarely).
And dont even get me started on track doping...im sure the peeps who know more about blood values will understand the advantages of micro dosing to a track rider. If that advantage is there you can bet your house its being used. People seem to have tottaly forgot the "dirty" reputation of Six Day racing..I see no reason to think that would have vanished.
So who`s clean?..theres gonna be a few ( I hope) but I`d put money on no one.
Nice guys dope to remember.

 

[andy1234]

I havent trawled through this entire thread but TBH I dont think I`d put money ony any 2nd or 3rd year onwards pro being entirely clean.
"Recovery doping" as I`ve seen it described will be commen place.
Given the advantages of modern era drug being ( consertivly?) 3..5% were does a "clean" rider get that back?
Due to the tactical nature of the sport It will always remain possible ( but difficult) for a clean rider to pop up with a one day or stage victory but in a GT you just cant "give away" 3..5% and remain in contention. They just dont make tactical mistakes that big ( or at least very rarely).
And dont even get me started on track doping...im sure the peeps who know more about blood values will understand the advantages of micro dosing to a track rider. If that advantage is there you can bet your house its being used. People seem to have tottaly forgot the "dirty" reputation of Six Day racing..I see no reason to think that would have vanished.
So who`s clean?..theres gonna be a few ( I hope) but I`d put money on no one.
Nice guys dope to remember.

I honestly remember hearing arguments like that when you were riding Darryl.
Its suprising you would put money on no one being clean...

 

[Darryl Webster]

I honestly remember hearing arguments like that when you were riding Darryl.
Its suprising you would put money on no one being clean...

Depends on the definition of clean. Under the current rules of no injections or IV`s accept prescibed it`s prety much a catch all situation.
Im not familier enough with the current peloton to pick out any one who I`d put money on as clean using that criteria.
I`d hope theres some but it`s a tall order.
Back in my day it was widespread but of the order of 1..1.5% advantage..still significant and no less wrong.

 

[andy1234]

Depends on the definition of clean. Under the current rules of no injections or IV`s accept prescibed it`s prety much a catch all situation.
Im not familier enough with the current peloton to pick out any one who I`d put money on as clean using that criteria.
I`d hope theres some but it`s a tall order.
Back in my day it was widespread but of the order of 1..1.5% advantage..still significant and no less wrong.

I can understand your cynism, but given you know how it feels to be on the receiving end of incorrect assumptions, I'm surprised you are doing the same thing.

If all riders, including track riders are doping, then there must be an incredible system in place at British Cycling.

 

[Darryl Webster]

I can understand your cynism, but given you know how it feels to be on the receiving end of incorrect assumptions, I'm surprised you are doing the same thing.

If all riders, including track riders are doping, then there must be an incredible system in place at British Cycling.

Read my comments again..I make no assertions on any particuler riders, teams or federations.
Just applying, what I see as logic, to the situation.
While not something I agree with ( especialy for GT`s ) the total banning of injections and IV`s ( though ethicaly with merit) go`s to far. Further than I ever thought would happen.
I find it almost impossible to believe that under the methods and practices clauses of the banned list they`l be many who completely comply.
Note: Under methods and practices the substance administered doesnt have to be dope.
Like I said..it depends on your definition of doping eh?

 

[andy1234]

Read my comments again..I make no assertions on any particuler riders, teams or federations.
Just applying, what I see as logic, to the situation.
While not something I agree with ( especialy for GT`s ) the total banning of injections and IV`s ( though ethicaly with merit) go`s to far. Further than I ever thought would happen.
I find it almost impossible to believe that under the methods and practices clauses of the banned list they`l be many who completely comply.
Note: Under methods and practices the substance administered doesnt have to be dope.
Like I said..it depends on your definition of doping eh?

Fair enough. If a b12 shot is doping though, then I would struggle to show you a "clean" rider of my generation.

 

[Darryl Webster]

Fair enough. If a b12 shot is doping though, then I would struggle to show you a "clean" rider of my generation.

Yup..agread..under that rule I "doped".... twice!

 

[Galic Ho]

Galic Ho, I think you missed a few threads seeing as ACF although still a strong fan of Evans does recognize the possibility and perhaps even the probability that Evans uses doping. So it is unfair for you to attack him as such. He does defend Evans but does so with some reasonable evidence, just as reasonable as those that critize Evans for doping

Not attacking him. Just saying to those who aren't aware that if Cadel's name gets mentioned, ACF94 will have something to say. I do remember him acknowledging late last year that Evans may not be as clean as a preachers sheets. For various reasons, Cadel always gets dragged up into the who is clean debate. Probably because he is perceived to be the cleanest of the big names. Just like Carlos Sastre. Both good, but struggle at times, particularly around the times in GT's when others start to find that 'extra' leg. Again, I wasn't attacking him. I just wanted other names to be mentioned. Like Wegmann that Liberty Seg brought up. I'd consider him to be clean myself. Well at least a lot cleaner than other guys.

Which is what doping comes down to. Shades of gray. Degrees of doping. I remember seeing Ricco in the 2006 Tour and two years later he was a different rider. People don't just wake up and bam, they're amazing. At least Evans has always been considered a leg above the rest. Works in his favour for public perception. Guys who transform over night cannot claim that...though some try and so do the fans in their mans defense.

 

[Galic Ho]

Of course i believe Nibali as a gt winner in 2010 is dirty by default. But there are other minor reasons you might want to look at.

Is best friends with Ivan Basso - the "if you were clean wouldnt you be very angry about dopers" argument.

Beat Ezequiel Mosquera - a top Spanish climber who was on epo, at the 2010 Vuelta.

Was the 3rd caballero in the triumvirate on the Mortirolo. The other 2- Basso and Scarponi.

Is italian

Was caught training with Pellizotti just before Francesco gotted busted last year by a major supporter of clean riding and a clean teams DS, with none other than Ferrari riding behind them on a scooter. That said enough for me. Also explained the bounds Nibali had grown in a year and why Kreuziger had remained where he was. One was getting a leg up. You get bonus points for naming the rival teams DS who saw them training. I believe him over Nibali and Pellizotti any day. Heck, I still believe if Pellizotti had not been nabbed last April/May, he'd have won the Giro. That is how good his program was/is. Basso wouldn't have stood a chance. Heck, nobody but Schleck or Contador could have beaten him.

 

[Darryl Webster]

Which is what doping comes down to. Shades of gray. Degrees of doping. I remember seeing Ricco in the 2006 Tour and two years later he was a different rider. People don't just wake up and bam, they're amazing. At least Evans has always been considered a leg above the rest. Works in his favour for public perception. Guys who transform over night cannot claim that...though some try and so do the fans in their mans defense.

This is spot on. At some stage in a riders life there is often a big leap..but it`s long before becoming a pro. That leap is suddenly becoming aware you have a better than average tallent. My own leap happened as a school boy in a club ten miles time trial. From 24 minute averages I suddenly found the capacity and knowledge of 22 minute 10`s. Happened in one event, and I recall it like it was yesterday.
From there on everything else was gradual and hard graft.

 

[Barrus]

I'm not saying Nibali is clean, but being friends with basso and beating mosquera is not conclusive evidence, if you ask me.

Wasn't Nibali linked to Ferari some time back and he threatened with legal action against the person who said this, but nothing of a real case was made?

Apparently Galic was quicker than me

 

[Benotti69]

Wasn't Nibali linked to Ferari some time back and he threatened with legal action against the person who said this, but nothing of a real case was made?

Apparently Galic was quicker than me

he's a doper

 

[hrotha]

Was caught training with Pellizotti just before Francesco gotted busted last year by a major supporter of clean riding and a clean teams DS, with none other than Ferrari riding behind them on a scooter. That said enough for me. Also explained the bounds Nibali had grown in a year and why Kreuziger had remained where he was. One was getting a leg up. You get bonus points for naming the rival teams DS who saw them training. I believe him over Nibali and Pellizotti any day. Heck, I still believe if Pellizotti had not been nabbed last April/May, he'd have won the Giro. That is how good his program was/is. Basso wouldn't have stood a chance. Heck, nobody but Schleck or Contador could have beaten him.

Interesting, you bring up the possibility of different gears within the same team, with some of their stars (Pellizotti, Nibali) being on better stuff than others (Basso, Kreuziger). I never considered that.

 

[Barrus]

Interesting, you bring up the possibility of different gears within the same team, with some of their stars (Pellizotti, Nibali) being on better stuff than others (Basso, Kreuziger). I never considered that.

I think this is a good possibility in todays peloton, especially if you are of the belief that team wide doping programs are not really the case anymore and that doping is more on an individual level currently

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Was caught training with Pellizotti just before Francesco gotted busted last year by a major supporter of clean riding and a clean teams DS, with none other than Ferrari riding behind them on a scooter. That said enough for me. Also explained the bounds Nibali had grown in a year and why Kreuziger had remained where he was. One was getting a leg up. You get bonus points for naming the rival teams DS who saw them training. I believe him over Nibali and Pellizotti any day. Heck, I still believe if Pellizotti had not been nabbed last April/May, he'd have won the Giro. That is how good his program was/is. Basso wouldn't have stood a chance. Heck, nobody but Schleck or Contador could have beaten him.

Ivano Fanini, of Amore e Vita-Conad.

Oh, and of the other bit, I'd consider that Wegmann has been pretty clean for the last couple of years at least. He's never struck me as the type that dopes, given his role, capabilities and actions. But seven years with Gerolsteiner will always make one wonder, even if it is essentially his local team.

 

[hrotha]

I think this is a good possibility in todays peloton, especially if you are of the belief that team wide doping programs are not really the case anymore and that doping is more on an individual level currently

I'd agree about smaller teams, but I always thought Liquigas would either be an exception to that rule, or would at least make sure all their leaders got the same treatment.