Who had the best season in the last 20 years?

[Leinster]

Be great if the World TT Champs was 90kms these days.

 

[Blanco]

Re:

Why not putting Valverde 2009 in it? The strange thing about his season back then, was the fact he was totally off during the classics (where he normally nets his most impressive results)

But Catalunya + Dauphine + Vuelta is pretty impressive too.

But also Purito 2012 season should be up there.

And why the heck is Zabel 2001 in that list? I mean, winning the green jersey + MSR is good, but not that impressive. All those stage wins doesn't mean anything when you're a good sprinter. The following season's i find more impressive really:

- VDB 1999 season
- Botero 2002 season
- Van Petegem 2003 season
- Rebellin 2004 season
- Cunego 2004 season
- Di Luca 2005 season
- Cancellara 2010 season
- Evans 2010 and 2011 season

I think Valverde had better seasons that that one. 2006, 2008, 2014, 2015 and this one 2017 were at least equal, if not even better that 2009

 

[Leinster]

Re: Re:

To win Fleche, you need to be strongest rider in a 3min uphill effort, and that's it. It helps if you save strength for the last effort, of course. So the strongest riders for that kind of finish always prevail in that race, and most often the strongest one wins indeed. Of the last couple of editions I remember only Betancur who looked mighty strong that mistimed his effort and maybe he could've won otherwise. So to conclude, you can't be the strongest guy in Fleche and finish 28th! You'll end up in top 3 very likely...

Not really, you could have the best legs in the world, but if you're a Tim Wellens or Tom De Gendt who can't afford to wait for the finish with Valverde or Martin, the best you can hope for is to strike out early. And if you don't have a minute plus gap at the foot of the Muur you'll end up outside the top 20 for sure.

Like you say, Flèche in recent years is a 3 minute effort. Should we be so surprised that the winner of that 3-minute effort on Wednesday is still fresh enough to turn around and win again on Sunday?

It's why I like the new Amstel finish. Draw the heads of state out early rather than let them hide until past the kite.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

To win Fleche, you need to be strongest rider in a 3min uphill effort, and that's it. It helps if you save strength for the last effort, of course. So the strongest riders for that kind of finish always prevail in that race, and most often the strongest one wins indeed. Of the last couple of editions I remember only Betancur who looked mighty strong that mistimed his effort and maybe he could've won otherwise. So to conclude, you can't be the strongest guy in Fleche and finish 28th! You'll end up in top 3 very likely...

Not really, you could have the best legs in the world, but if you're a Tim Wellens or Tom De Gendt who can't afford to wait for the finish with Valverde or Martin, the best you can hope for is to strike out early. And if you don't have a minute plus gap at the foot of the Muur you'll end up outside the top 20 for sure.

Like you say, Flèche in recent years is a 3 minute effort. Should we be so surprised that the winner of that 3-minute effort on Wednesday is still fresh enough to turn around and win again on Sunday?

It's why I like the new Amstel finish. Draw the heads of state out early rather than let them hide until past the kite.

The problem with this is that, going on the last few years, you're basing it on a sample size of one. And that one rider is comfortably the finest hilly classics rider of his generation, and in the conversation for being the best of all time.

The fact that Valverde can win Fleche and then be fresh enough to challenge at Liege isn't exactly a sound basis for making sweeping conclusions from imo.

 

[Scarponi]

Re: Re:

To win Fleche, you need to be strongest rider in a 3min uphill effort, and that's it. It helps if you save strength for the last effort, of course. So the strongest riders for that kind of finish always prevail in that race, and most often the strongest one wins indeed. Of the last couple of editions I remember only Betancur who looked mighty strong that mistimed his effort and maybe he could've won otherwise. So to conclude, you can't be the strongest guy in Fleche and finish 28th! You'll end up in top 3 very likely...

Not really, you could have the best legs in the world, but if you're a Tim Wellens or Tom De Gendt who can't afford to wait for the finish with Valverde or Martin, the best you can hope for is to strike out early. And if you don't have a minute plus gap at the foot of the Muur you'll end up outside the top 20 for sure.

Like you say, Flèche in recent years is a 3 minute effort. Should we be so surprised that the winner of that 3-minute effort on Wednesday is still fresh enough to turn around and win again on Sunday?

It's why I like the new Amstel finish. Draw the heads of state out early rather than let them hide until past the kite.

The problem with this is that, going on the last few years, you're basing it on a sample size of one. And that one rider is comfortably the finest hilly classics rider of his generation, and in the conversation for being the best of all time.

The fact that Valverde can win Fleche and then be fresh enough to challenge at Liege isn't exactly a sound basis for making sweeping conclusions from imo.

plus other then the year Valverde set the record all the riders with quick times from 2005-2012 are retired. Barely been challenged and I believe if those riders were still there he may of not won them all

 

[Scarponi]

Re: Re:

Why not putting Valverde 2009 in it? The strange thing about his season back then, was the fact he was totally off during the classics (where he normally nets his most impressive results)

But Catalunya + Dauphine + Vuelta is pretty impressive too.

But also Purito 2012 season should be up there.

And why the heck is Zabel 2001 in that list? I mean, winning the green jersey + MSR is good, but not that impressive. All those stage wins doesn't mean anything when you're a good sprinter. The following season's i find more impressive really:

- VDB 1999 season
- Botero 2002 season
- Van Petegem 2003 season
- Rebellin 2004 season
- Cunego 2004 season
- Di Luca 2005 season
- Cancellara 2010 season
- Evans 2010 and 2011 season

I think Valverde had better seasons that that one. 2006, 2008, 2014, 2015 and this one 2017 were at least equal, if not even better that 2009

Evans 2011 is as strong as almost every GC riders year. Definetly top 5

 

[Durden93]

Re: Re:

Only winning mass sprints (I count Worlds as a mass sprint), sitting behind your team until the lats 200 metres, should not be able to qualify for such a discussion IMO. I realize that may be somewhat extreme, at least to some, but thats not what a truly great rider/season is to me-

Bravo!

I do rate consistency higher than a couple of major victories but consistency in just sprinting does not make sense.

Re-watch the 2011 worlds and try to tell me Cav needs a great leadout, or 2010 champs elysee. Cav could win when things get messy.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Only winning mass sprints (I count Worlds as a mass sprint), sitting behind your team until the lats 200 metres, should not be able to qualify for such a discussion IMO. I realize that may be somewhat extreme, at least to some, but thats not what a truly great rider/season is to me-

Bravo!

I do rate consistency higher than a couple of major victories but consistency in just sprinting does not make sense.

Re-watch the 2011 worlds and try to tell me Cav needs a great leadout, or 2010 champs elysee. Cav could win when things get messy.

Unless things get messy with more than a couple of kms to go in the race. Then he's out the back. Which is why he deserves no place in this discussion.

 

[Durden93]

Re: Re:

Why not putting Valverde 2009 in it? The strange thing about his season back then, was the fact he was totally off during the classics (where he normally nets his most impressive results)

But Catalunya + Dauphine + Vuelta is pretty impressive too.

But also Purito 2012 season should be up there.

And why the heck is Zabel 2001 in that list? I mean, winning the green jersey + MSR is good, but not that impressive. All those stage wins doesn't mean anything when you're a good sprinter. The following season's i find more impressive really:

- VDB 1999 season
- Botero 2002 season
- Van Petegem 2003 season
- Rebellin 2004 season
- Cunego 2004 season
- Di Luca 2005 season
- Cancellara 2010 season
- Evans 2010 and 2011 season

I think Valverde had better seasons that that one. 2006, 2008, 2014, 2015 and this one 2017 were at least equal, if not even better that 2009

Evans 2011 is as strong as almost every GC riders year. Definetly top 5

Can't tell if you're serious or not. Aside from the TDF, Evans won two stage races. In one of them Tony Martin was 2nd. Wiggins 2012. Froome's TDF Dauphine years, and Bertie's 09 all rank higher among gc riders imo.

 

[Scarponi]

Re: Re:

Why not putting Valverde 2009 in it? The strange thing about his season back then, was the fact he was totally off during the classics (where he normally nets his most impressive results)

But Catalunya + Dauphine + Vuelta is pretty impressive too.

But also Purito 2012 season should be up there.

And why the heck is Zabel 2001 in that list? I mean, winning the green jersey + MSR is good, but not that impressive. All those stage wins doesn't mean anything when you're a good sprinter. The following season's i find more impressive really:

- VDB 1999 season
- Botero 2002 season
- Van Petegem 2003 season
- Rebellin 2004 season
- Cunego 2004 season
- Di Luca 2005 season
- Cancellara 2010 season
- Evans 2010 and 2011 season

I think Valverde had better seasons that that one. 2006, 2008, 2014, 2015 and this one 2017 were at least equal, if not even better that 2009

Evans 2011 is as strong as almost every GC riders year. Definetly top 5

Can't tell if you're serious or not. Aside from the TDF, Evans won two stage races. In one of them Tony Martin was 2nd. Wiggins 2012. Froome's TDF Dauphine years, and Bertie's 09 all rank higher among gc riders imo.

But that's my point I never said it was 1st but very very solid amongst GC guys. A TDF plus Romandie plus Tirreno plus 2nd Criterium international is top 5 to 6 or 7th regardless of competition.

 

[Echoes]

Re: Re:

Re-watch the 2011 worlds and try to tell me Cav needs a great leadout, or 2010 champs elysee. Cav could win when things get messy.

Leadout or not leadout, Cavendish was not on the attack with 30km to go. So it's a kermess, period. Even less than a kermess. 2010 Champs-Élyséees would not be a re-watch but a first-time watch for me and I couldn't be bother. Would rather re-watch today's Dwars door het Hageland.

 

[burning]

A flat Worlds would usually mean a bunch sprint Worlds these days. That means Worlds in which the eventual winner had sucked wheels for at least the last 100km. Such were 2002, 2005, 2012, 2016. Not talking about editions in which the eventual winner only made a real effort with 3k to go such as 2015.

When you compare that to the ITT Worlds in which every contender have to make a 50+ km solo effort, it pales in comparison. You cannot draft wheels in ITT. You cannot cheat.

That's why Fabian Cancellara is the greatest rider of the century and his 2010 season is the greatest of all.

Cancellara TT placements in 2010: 2,16,1,2,1,1,3,1
Contador TT's in 2009: 1,1,2,1,2,5,1,2,1
Nope, Contador 2009 is objectively better. He is the greatest rider of this century.

Also, Cancellara had one of the most full *** performances of all time in Mendrisio, but like usual, Echoes has no clue what he is talking about.

 

[Red Rick]

I think Evans 2011 is top 3/4

Of that year.

 

[Blanco]

Re:

I think Evans 2011 is top 3/4

Of that year.

2nd clearly.

 

[Netserk]

Behind Phil or Alberto?

 

[Blanco]

Re: Re:

To win Fleche, you need to be strongest rider in a 3min uphill effort, and that's it. It helps if you save strength for the last effort, of course. So the strongest riders for that kind of finish always prevail in that race, and most often the strongest one wins indeed. Of the last couple of editions I remember only Betancur who looked mighty strong that mistimed his effort and maybe he could've won otherwise. So to conclude, you can't be the strongest guy in Fleche and finish 28th! You'll end up in top 3 very likely...

Not really, you could have the best legs in the world, but if you're a Tim Wellens or Tom De Gendt who can't afford to wait for the finish with Valverde or Martin, the best you can hope for is to strike out early. And if you don't have a minute plus gap at the foot of the Muur you'll end up outside the top 20 for sure.

Like you say, Flèche in recent years is a 3 minute effort. Should we be so surprised that the winner of that 3-minute effort on Wednesday is still fresh enough to turn around and win again on Sunday?

It's why I like the new Amstel finish. Draw the heads of state out early rather than let them hide until past the kite.

Strongest guy in Fleche means strongest guy uphill! Some Cancellara can't win that race, no matter what legs he has. Wellens or De Gendt also very hardly can win that race, they would need carnage from early on to stand some chance. They can't be strongest in that race, no matter what legs they have, cause the race doesn't suit them. Liege is a different beast though...

 

[Valv.Piti]

Evans '11 defo better than Contador's '11

 

[Blanco]

Re:

Behind Phil or Alberto?

Didn't count Alberto, 3rd then...

 

[burning]

Evans 11 > Contador 11 definitely.

Tour > Giro
Tirreno > Catalunya
Romandie > whatever else that Contador did

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Going with Boonen '05. Wonderful season.

 

[hrotha]

Evans 11 > Contador 11, no contest.

Tour > zilch
Tirreno > ***-all
Romandie > nada

 

[Red Rick]

In a vacuum maybe. In context, '11 Contador is many times more impressive than Evans.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re:

In a vacuum maybe. In context, '11 Contador is many times more impressive than Evans.

Its very, very hard to argue Contador's case in this instance in my opinion, but go ahead.. Only Gilbert in 2011 was better and thats without a doubt one of the greatest seasons in modern history. No shame there for Cadel, as much as I really don't like the guy.

 

[Red Rick]

Taken seperately Evans results are obviously better, but getting 5th in a Tour after dominating a Zomegnan Giro is definitely more impressive than seperate 5th in the Tour and 1st in the Giro.

Evans' Tour winning year is a below average Tour winning year if you look at this decade alone. Since 2011, at least 3 stage race centered years have been better, courtesy of Wiggins and Froome and I really hesitate to rate it higher than Nibali

 

[Valv.Piti]

Evans still beat the two best GT-riders in that period, Schleck and Contador. Nibali beat Peraud and Pinot, there's no contest there for me either, despite the fact that Contador wasn't at his best.