Who had the best season in the last 20 years?

[Cance > TheRest]

Re:

Cancellara spent much of his later career following wheels and waiting for the sprint. It's like he never recovered mentally from the Gerrans MSR thing.

In Milan - San Remo, yes. Not really in Flanders or Paris - Roubaix. It is true, that he abstained from attacking 50 kilometres away in the following editions of Flanders, but I think that had more to do with the experience he had in 2011, where his solo attempt failed. Like with Sagan but to a much more extreme extent, his biggest strength became his weakness, when all the other contenders started to race against him. Still, he did manage to blow away almost everyone on Kwaremont in 13' and 14'.

 

[Echoes]

All the other contenders are not racing against Sagan but for him.

 

[Breh]

Atleast Terpstra had the balls to not tow him to the finish.

 

[Durden93]

Re:

All the other contenders are not racing against Sagan but for him.

Right, because when Alaphillipe sat on Sagan's wheel in Milan San Remo he was obviously helping Sagan :lol: As for Cancellara, his tactic at that moment was to have Dijolder hold the gap until the Kwaremont. That's not taking pulls. If you want to be a Cancellara fanboy that`s fine by me, but don`t drag down the performances of all the other riders simply because they don`t fit your arbitrary criteria.

 

[Blanco]

Re: Re:

Evans 11 > Contador 11, no contest.

Tour > zilch
Tirreno > ***-all
Romandie > nada

But that's why results are not everything. I mean, did you watched Contador that year? Did you watched that Giro? It was poetry in motion. It was best climbing performance since Pantani's Giro 1999. It was unforgettable!

Wasn't even the best climbing of Contador, much less since Pantani.
Tour -09 was better, Tour -07 was better by a couple of riders. A number of the Armstrong years was better.

The 2011 Giro wasn't that competitive either. Nibali hadn't come through yet, Scaroni has never been top-3 outside of that GT and Rujano, what has he done other than a third place in the 2005 Giro? It was a dominant performance, but let's not pretend like it was godlike. Gadret, a man that has never before or since been top-10 in a GT, came in fourth, less than 4 minutes down.

 

[Irondan]

Poll is fixed now...

 

[Echoes]

Re: Re:

Right, because when Alaphillipe sat on Sagan's wheel in Milan San Remo he was obviously helping Sagan :lol: As for Cancellara, his tactic at that moment was to have Dijolder hold the gap until the Kwaremont. That's not taking pulls. If you want to be a Cancellara fanboy that`s fine by me, but don`t drag down the performances of all the other riders simply because they don`t fit your arbitrary criteria.

It's not arbitrary criteria, it's objective observation. I'm not a Cancellara fanboy at all, I just observe and accept facts as they are. The list of my fave riders is public and he's not in. The best riders of every era have always been the best rouleurs/ITT specialists. It's the way it is. It's true for Cancellara, like it was true for Hinault, Merckx, Anquetil or Coppi.

In Doha the whole Belgian team has helped Sagan. Even in Quebec, he was towed back by opponents. But his fanboys will always be whining when he loses.

 

[Durden93]

Re: Re:

Right, because when Alaphillipe sat on Sagan's wheel in Milan San Remo he was obviously helping Sagan :lol: As for Cancellara, his tactic at that moment was to have Dijolder hold the gap until the Kwaremont. That's not taking pulls. If you want to be a Cancellara fanboy that`s fine by me, but don`t drag down the performances of all the other riders simply because they don`t fit your arbitrary criteria.

It's not arbitrary criteria, it's objective observation. I'm not a Cancellara fanboy at all, I just observe and accept facts as they are. The list of my fave riders is public and he's not in. The best riders of every era have always been the best rouleurs/ITT specialists. It's the way it is. It's true for Cancellara, like it was true for Hinault, Merckx, Anquetil or Coppi.

In Doha the whole Belgian team has helped Sagan. Even in Quebec, he was towed back by opponents. But his fanboys will always be whining when he loses.

Ok, I apologize for calling you a fan boy. I looked up your list of favourite riders, which for the most part seems to be the scrappy underachiever type. There's nothing wrong with that, but those riders have often raced for 2nd. That doesn't exactly fit the bill for exciting racing.

 

[Mozart92]

Re:

And why the heck is Zabel 2001 in that list? I mean, winning the green jersey + MSR is good, but not that impressive. All those stage wins doesn't mean anything when you're a good sprinter. The following season's i find more impressive really:

It was the sixth consecutive green jersey (for each time it gets statistically harder to win back-to back), he had 22 victories that year! Plus he placed 1st on the UCI World Road Rankings points classification, it was a huge deed for a sprinter.


Anyway personally I'd still say that Pantani 1998 or Contador 2008 top everything else. Two grand tours in a season are pretty much the best a modern cyclist can possibly achieve.

 

[Blanco]

Re: Re:

Right, because when Alaphillipe sat on Sagan's wheel in Milan San Remo he was obviously helping Sagan :lol: As for Cancellara, his tactic at that moment was to have Dijolder hold the gap until the Kwaremont. That's not taking pulls. If you want to be a Cancellara fanboy that`s fine by me, but don`t drag down the performances of all the other riders simply because they don`t fit your arbitrary criteria.

It's not arbitrary criteria, it's objective observation. I'm not a Cancellara fanboy at all, I just observe and accept facts as they are. The list of my fave riders is public and he's not in. The best riders of every era have always been the best rouleurs/ITT specialists. It's the way it is. It's true for Cancellara, like it was true for Hinault, Merckx, Anquetil or Coppi.

In Doha the whole Belgian team has helped Sagan. Even in Quebec, he was towed back by opponents. But his fanboys will always be whining when he loses.

Although he was one heck of a rider, I wouldn't quite put him in the league of those 4 you mentioned. That's the top of cycling. He's slightly below imo, with 3 compatriots from his respective era, of which one retired this spring, one will retire in a month or so and one broke his leg this summer and will not retire any time soon

 

[Netserk]

Cancellara was more a prologue specialist than a TT specialist. The only long ITT he ever won in the Tour de France was because of a change of wind.

Tony Martin on the other hand...

 

[Arredondo]

Re: Re:

Why not putting Valverde 2009 in it? The strange thing about his season back then, was the fact he was totally off during the classics (where he normally nets his most impressive results)

But Catalunya + Dauphine + Vuelta is pretty impressive too.

But also Purito 2012 season should be up there.

And why the heck is Zabel 2001 in that list? I mean, winning the green jersey + MSR is good, but not that impressive. All those stage wins doesn't mean anything when you're a good sprinter. The following season's i find more impressive really:

- VDB 1999 season
- Botero 2002 season
- Van Petegem 2003 season
- Rebellin 2004 season
- Cunego 2004 season
- Di Luca 2005 season
- Cancellara 2010 season
- Evans 2010 and 2011 season

I think Valverde had better seasons that that one. 2006, 2008, 2014, 2015 and this one 2017 were at least equal, if not even better that 2009

For sure. But that's not my point. Valverde experienced like 5 or 6 seasons which can be on the list.

But 2009 season has never been taken into account, because he 'sucked' during the classics. But winning a GT + 2 big stage races is not something you can't discount either.

 

[Arredondo]

Re: Re:

And why the heck is Zabel 2001 in that list? I mean, winning the green jersey + MSR is good, but not that impressive. All those stage wins doesn't mean anything when you're a good sprinter. The following season's i find more impressive really:

It was the sixth consecutive green jersey (for each time it gets statistically harder to win back-to back), he had 22 victories that year! Plus he placed 1st on the UCI World Road Rankings points classification, it was a huge deed for a sprinter.


Anyway personally I'd still say that Pantani 1998 or Contador 2008 top everything else. Two grand tours in a season are pretty much the best a modern cyclist can possibly achieve.

But of those 22 victories, 12 of them were pretty small races (Trofeo's Manacor, Palma, Trofeo Luis Puig, stages in Ruta, Valencia, Bayern and Deutschland). For me, that's not enough to be considered in the 'Who had the best season in the last 20 years' discussion.

For a good or great sprinter, it's quite easy to win bunch sprints, especially in smaller/less important races. For a GC guy/classics rider, it's far more difficult to win GT's/big stage races/classics, even if you're in great shape.

Even in the Tour, Zabel had like 6/7 chances to win stages. So the fact he won 3 stages is really good, but nothing compared to winning the whole race. You only have one change to win the overall itself, while you have multiple chances to win individual stages.

That's why classic riders/climbers should always be in front of sprinters in these kind of discussions. However, if you're someone like Sagan ....

 

[Arredondo]

Re:

Cancellara was more a prologue specialist than a TT specialist. The only long ITT he ever won in the Tour de France was because of a change of wind.

Tony Martin on the other hand...

The guy became World TT champion multiple times.

And 2x Olympic champion.

Or were those TT's shorter then 10 km?

 

[Valv.Piti]

Cancellara at the peak of his powers would school Tony Martin. He was also a lot more versatile as a time trialist where as Tony Martin basically needs his time trials to be long, flat and untechnical.

 

[Leinster]

Re:

Cancellara was more a prologue specialist than a TT specialist. The only long ITT he ever won in the Tour de France was because of a change of wind.

Tony Martin on the other hand...

...has a grand total of 3 TdF ITT wins, compared to Spartacus' 2, not counting prologues.

 

[GuyIncognito]

Re: Re:

Right, because when Alaphillipe sat on Sagan's wheel in Milan San Remo he was obviously helping Sagan :lol: As for Cancellara, his tactic at that moment was to have Dijolder hold the gap until the Kwaremont. That's not taking pulls. If you want to be a Cancellara fanboy that`s fine by me, but don`t drag down the performances of all the other riders simply because they don`t fit your arbitrary criteria.

It's not arbitrary criteria, it's objective observation. I'm not a Cancellara fanboy at all, I just observe and accept facts as they are. The list of my fave riders is public and he's not in. The best riders of every era have always been the best rouleurs/ITT specialists. It's the way it is. It's true for Cancellara, like it was true for Hinault, Merckx, Anquetil or Coppi.

In Doha the whole Belgian team has helped Sagan. Even in Quebec, he was towed back by opponents. But his fanboys will always be whining when he loses.

Cancellara is a fantastic rider, but to put him on the level of Merckx, Hinault and Coppi, or even of Anquetil?... That's....a wild stretch.

 

[Netserk]

Re: Re:

Cancellara was more a prologue specialist than a TT specialist. The only long ITT he ever won in the Tour de France was because of a change of wind.

Tony Martin on the other hand...

The guy became World TT champion multiple times.

And 2x Olympic champion.

Or were those TT's shorter then 10 km?

I guess Rogers and Millar were better TTers than Armstrong as well...

 

[Valv.Piti]

I'd like to know the number of time trials won by Cancellara and Martin and also how they have fared against each other. I don't really want to dig that up, but all I know is this:

Cancellara has 4 WCs against Martin's 4
Cancellara has 2 Olympics against Tony's 0
Cancellara has 6 time trials in Tour de France against Martin's 4

Thats a pretty convincing case for Cancellara IMO. Also, and this is obviously biased, but I think Cancellara has showcased a bigger level of dominance in the discipline than Martin has throughout his career. I specifically remember Cancellara immense display in Tour de Suisse in 2009.

 

[Red Rick]

For Cancellara the TT's largely depended on focus, especially later in his career.

 

[tobydawq]

Re:

I'd like to know the number of time trials won by Cancellara and Martin and also how they have fared against each other. I don't really want to dig that up, but all I know is this:

Cancellara has 4 WCs against Martin's 4
Cancellara has 2 Olympics against Tony's 0
Cancellara has 6 time trials in Tour de France against Martin's 4

Thats a pretty convincing case for Cancellara IMO. Also, and this is obviously biased, but I think Cancellara has showcased a bigger level of dominance in the discipline than Martin has throughout his career. I specifically remember Cancellara immense display in Tour de Suisse in 2009.

Cancellara has won 55 time trials (I am not counting two victories in 2.3 races from 2002 - I don't know if they should be counted).
Martin has won 44.
Cancellara was 15-13 against Martin in head to head.

 

[jsem94]

Voted Gilbert 2011 instinctively, but Pantani 1998 probably edges it. After all, Pantani did win the double. Had Gilbert won another monument or the WC in that year it would have been closer. He was about to win that WC but that doesn't really matter at the end of the day. If you talk about how he rode though, he was immense. He left everyone for dead as soon as the road turned slightly uphill. It was a sight to be seen.

 

[GuyIncognito]

Re:

I'd like to know the number of time trials won by Cancellara and Martin and also how they have fared against each other. I don't really want to dig that up, but all I know is this:

Cancellara has 4 WCs against Martin's 4
Cancellara has 2 Olympics against Tony's 0
Cancellara has 6 time trials in Tour de France against Martin's 4

Thats a pretty convincing case for Cancellara IMO. Also, and this is obviously biased, but I think Cancellara has showcased a bigger level of dominance in the discipline than Martin has throughout his career. I specifically remember Cancellara immense display in Tour de Suisse in 2009.

Here, have fun. All their head to head ITTs

http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=30299
http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=29938
http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=29138
http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=29074
http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=27939
http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=26614
http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=26289
http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=26283
http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=25719
http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=25615
http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=23611
http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=24063
http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=24110
http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=23029
http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=21633
http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=21624
http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=21145
http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=21293
http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=20840
http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=19456
http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=17899
http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=17879
http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=17672
http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=17664
http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=17441
http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=15260
http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=12924
http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=12907
http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=11946
http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=11938
http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=11008

 

[Valv.Piti]

Oh you can do that on CQ? I always use PCS.

 

[Netserk]

Re:

I'd like to know the number of time trials won by Cancellara and Martin and also how they have fared against each other. I don't really want to dig that up, but all I know is this:

Cancellara has 4 WCs against Martin's 4
Cancellara has 2 Olympics against Tony's 0
Cancellara has 6 time trials in Tour de France against Martin's 4

Thats a pretty convincing case for Cancellara IMO. Also, and this is obviously biased, but I think Cancellara has showcased a bigger level of dominance in the discipline than Martin has throughout his career. I specifically remember Cancellara immense display in Tour de Suisse in 2009.

As I wrote earlier, Cancellara was primarily a prologue specialist. He only won 1 long ITT in the Tour, and that was only because of favorable weather. Martin has won 3. My point was not about Martin though, but merely to point out how overrated Cancellara is. Outside of GTs when many of the best aren't in form, he can win the longer ones. But just like neither Millar nor Rogers were the best TTer in the world, neither was Cancellara. He was the most consistent performer over a decade though, but that's because he didn't have anything else to focus on after April every year. Since ITTs (especially in recent years) aren't that important, it's no surprise that the most gifted riders in the bunch don't focus 100% on that. (As an example, Contador was a better TTer than Cancellara in 2009; and Wiggins was in 2012 better than Canc ever was)