Who is clean?

[lancewillwin8]

what about 99 to 05?

IT was a doping free for all back then. I suspect lance is just such a talented athlete that he was able to win clean. but if not the others were all doping so i see no issue.

 

[lancewillwin8]

lance is still juiced to the eyeballs. there's no evidence he has changed his ways and to be at the front of the peloton after a few years off and at 38 is 'special'.

Last year he was definitely cleaner than at any point in the past. I get the feeling though this year he may have two big supercharged ferrari engines powering up the big climbs and putting minutes into contador.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Last year he was definitely cleaner than at any point in the past. I get the feeling though this year he may have two big supercharged ferrari engines powering up the big climbs and putting minutes into contador.

I don't blame him if he dopes this year as he may be forced to due to Contradopes blood doping.

 

[lancewillwin8]

I don't blame him if he dopes this year as he may be forced to due to Contradopes blood doping.

If only cadel would get in on the act. Too talented to have not won a GT. I hope either him or lance wins this year.

 

[Inner Peace]

evans, cunego, leipheimer, wiggins and sastre?

Evans, Basso, Vandevelde, Wiggins and Sastre

I feel like explaining why I think these guys are currently clean or top 5'd clean when they did.

Evans - There was some thread months ago where I piped up about Evans where I genuinely believe that this guy is a superfreak and with the passport possibly working, then a superfreak VO2 close to 90 can compete (I point to Lemond still competitive initially when the EPO era hit.) AIS testing concurs the guy has amazing engine. People say but what about T-mobile, but the guy broke his collarbone so many times he barely raced, and had no T-mobile style performances anyway.

Basso - i've said before that his 5.6w/kg where he dropped Evans can not be suspicious (the guy that points to his blood values certainly looks VERY clean). Same coach, different rider qualities, and Evans beat him in a pure power-to-weight TT just two days later. If Basso is suspect, Evans is too, so it would be a logic flaw for me to suggest Basso is dirty given Evan's faltered, rather than Basso 'blitzing' the race as has been described

Vandevelde - 2008/09 clean for me. Not sure what happened at Postal tho. I know people think that his Tour performances are suspect, but I point to the parcours (2008 long time trials, 2009 TEAM time trial) and non-agressive racing (2008 missing some key 'attackers', and CERA guys were popped early, 2009 Soft pedalling not to embarass the Boss too much) to explain that a clean rider with a solid time trial base can compete at that level

Wiggins - 2009 clean (and past). Tour 2009 was a weak weak weak parcours. He gained so much time in the TTT yet lost consistent ground on the soft pedalled climbs and short time trial. He had the power of a beast before he 'transformed', but he still dropped off when the going got tough like you'd expect a clean rider to do (about 2% behind the top guys on the climbs and TT) Again, it would be a logic flaw for me to suggest Wiggins is dirty, given I think VDV is clean.

Sastre - I won't let nationality get in the way of my opinion. I think he has come from some suspect teams, but who hasn't? Of my 5 'clean' riders, I had the biggest reservations naming Carlos. 2008 Tour final TT is suspect, so I'm unsure of this guy. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt - I'm a good guy like that

 

[auscyclefan94]

Evans, Basso, Vandevelde, Wiggins and Sastre

I feel like explaining why I think these guys are currently clean or top 5'd clean when they did.

Evans - There was some thread months ago where I piped up about Evans where I genuinely believe that this guy is a superfreak and with the passport possibly working, then a superfreak VO2 close to 90 can compete (I point to Lemond still competitive initially when the EPO era hit.) AIS testing concurs the guy has amazing engine. People say but what about T-mobile, but the guy broke his collarbone so many times he barely raced, and had no T-mobile style performances anyway.

Also, he was not liked at t mobile at all and unusually was not given a ride in the 04 tour with t mobile. he was one of the ones to not get "sick" all at once at la vuelta in 04. Supposedly he spoke out about doping in tmobile to the uci but I guess they are corrupt as liberty serguros are so there you go.

 

[Benotti69]

If only cadel would get in on the act. Too talented to have not won a GT. I hope either him or lance wins this year.

don't be an idiot. The sport doesn't need doping full stop and anyone who advocates it is a piece of SH*T.

Kirchen is in hospital for probably a bad reaction to a blood product. Is it worth his life. NO. F O back to fanboy world.

People who advocate taking risks to win are absolute idiots and should look in the mirror and ask themselves would they let their children take these risks and if the answer is yes, well you shouldn't be allowed procreate.

LA was a decent 1 day racer. END OF. He won all his TdFs dirty and they count for nothing. He has never raced clean since '95 and never will. Sooner he goes down the better the sport will be and i hope he takes the rest of the dirt with him.


Clean riders;

Voekler
Cunego
Sastre
nearly anyone with talent that doesn't finish in the top 20 but finishes inside the top 30/40 and kills themselves to do it.

Evans No
Basso No

why evans isn't is BMC are not a clean squad. Phonak wasn't and i imagine BMC isn't, cant be if GH rides..

Basso, not a hope, sister involved, Opertion Peurto.....course he's not

Wiggins ride last year was very suspect in TdF. supposed loss of weight made him climb the GC by 80 or so places... i don't think so. the guy has gone of the radar after the Landis emails was made public and that to me is suspect. if he was clean he would have had something to say, not this silence.

it is very hard to name the clean guys. David Millar i imagine must be clean, but!!!!!!!!!.... he does stand to lose a huge amount if he is caught. he has tied his future to the sport by becoming a part owner of garmin, so that says to me he wants to remain in the sport...so to be not clean would be very stupid.

what is the most fool proof way for a rider to prove they are clean...might be a good thread on its own as we hear people's ideas

 

[rhubroma]

don't be an idiot. The sport doesn't need doping full stop and anyone who advocates it is a piece of SH*T.

Kirchen is in hospital for probably a bad reaction to a blood product. Is it worth his life. NO. F O back to fanboy world.

People who advocate taking risks to win are absolute idiots and should look in the mirror and ask themselves would they let their children take these risks and if the answer is yes, well you shouldn't be allowed procreate.

LA was a decent 1 day racer. END OF. He won all his TdFs dirty and they count for nothing. He has never raced clean since '95 and never will. Sooner he goes down the better the sport will be and i hope he takes the rest of the dirt with him.


Clean riders;

Voekler
Cunego
Sastre
nearly anyone with talent that doesn't finish in the top 20 but finishes inside the top 30/40 and kills themselves to do it.

Evans No
Basso No

why evans isn't is BMC are not a clean squad. Phonak wasn't and i imagine BMC isn't, cant be if GH rides..

Basso, not a hope, sister involved, Opertion Peurto.....course he's not

Wiggins ride last year was very suspect in TdF. supposed loss of weight made him climb the GC by 80 or so places... i don't think so. the guy has gone of the radar after the Landis emails was made public and that to me is suspect. if he was clean he would have had something to say, not this silence.

it is very hard to name the clean guys. David Millar i imagine must be clean, but!!!!!!!!!.... he does stand to lose a huge amount if he is caught. he has tied his future to the sport by becoming a part owner of garmin, so that says to me he wants to remain in the sport...so to be not clean would be very stupid.

what is the most fool proof way for a rider to prove they are clean...might be a good thread on its own as we hear people's ideas

Before 2010 I'd have certainly agreed with you, now I have my doubts. In any case I wouldn't count Basso's sister's involvement in the case relevant to the current situation. She was involved prior to 2006. The investigation has been ongoing since then. She certainly isn't dealing any more. And Ivan has been through the ringer since then.

Again I have my doubts, and don't assume one way or the other at the moment.

 

[Benotti69]

Before 2010 I'd have certainly agreed with you, now I have my doubts. In any case I wouldn't count Basso's sister's involvement in the case relevant to the current situation. She was involved prior to 2006. The investigation has been ongoing since then. She certainly isn't dealing any more. And Ivan has been through the ringer since then.

Again I have my doubts, and don't assume one way or the other at the moment.

2006 means nothing in Italy. I saw Di Luca the other day in his nice audi4x4 without a care in the world....see him regularly on his top of the range wiliers riding with a bunch of guys laughing and joking breaking every red light along the coast road...

as for stopping, not possible here to stop earning money and keep up a certain level of lifestyle..they find other avenues to do the same thing...

sadly to win a GT in the current era, you need to be enhanced, but very very very carefully enhanced....

liquidgas doing a US Postal in the giro, they ain't on water....and through what ringer, probably was still on sponsor money and turning up at local bike shops for a fee to top it all up....nah we are given the impression that it hurts, but i have not seen it...

 

[Anonymous]

Wiggins ride last year was very suspect in TdF. supposed loss of weight made him climb the GC by 80 or so places... i don't think so. the guy has gone of the radar after the Landis emails was made public and that to me is suspect. if he was clean he would have had something to say, not this silence.

He went quiet a long time before the landis stuff. I think brad several months ago was given the stfu talk, i certainly think the team were given the stfu about the landis allegations. (Sky made a statement, well DB did, and DB is the boss. On this one I think he has pulled rank to keep sky out of it.) His twitter has been very quiet and generally non-explosive since about march. His wifes (equally outspoken) twitter has gone completely. It could of course be that he only stirs the crap when hes bored, and hes been busy since april preparing for the tour (we dont need any jokes about the use of the word "preparing")

 

[The Hitch]

don't be an idiot. The sport doesn't need doping full stop and anyone who advocates it is a piece of SH*T.

Kirchen is in hospital for probably a bad reaction to a blood product. Is it worth his life. NO. F O back to fanboy world.

People who advocate taking risks to win are absolute idiots and should look in the mirror and ask themselves would they let their children take these risks and if the answer is yes, well you shouldn't be allowed procreate.

LA was a decent 1 day racer. END OF. He won all his TdFs dirty and they count for nothing. He has never raced clean since '95 and never will. Sooner he goes down the better the sport will be and i hope he takes the rest of the dirt with him.


Clean riders;

Voekler
Cunego
Sastre
nearly anyone with talent that doesn't finish in the top 20 but finishes inside the top 30/40 and kills themselves to do it.

Evans No
Basso No

why evans isn't is BMC are not a clean squad. Phonak wasn't and i imagine BMC isn't, cant be if GH rides..

Basso, not a hope, sister involved, Opertion Peurto.....course he's not

Wiggins ride last year was very suspect in TdF. supposed loss of weight made him climb the GC by 80 or so places... i don't think so. the guy has gone of the radar after the Landis emails was made public and that to me is suspect. if he was clean he would have had something to say, not this silence.

it is very hard to name the clean guys. David Millar i imagine must be clean, but!!!!!!!!!.... he does stand to lose a huge amount if he is caught. he has tied his future to the sport by becoming a part owner of garmin, so that says to me he wants to remain in the sport...so to be not clean would be very stupid.

what is the most fool proof way for a rider to prove they are clean...might be a good thread on its own as we hear people's ideas

Its a stupid idea but hey you asked for ideas.

Wont always work but if people are believe you have cheated in a time trial, offer to redo that time trial with ped's. If you improve on that performance, you have gone a reasonable way to proving your clean.

So take Contadors annency time trial in 09 tour. Contador could ask his critics/ experts what they believe he took. Say they accuse him of having used x ammount of epo. Contador could offer to, in front of doping experts and cameras, take this ammount of epo, then redo the course. He should, to prove he wasnt doping the first time, smash his tour 09 time by a significant margin, considering the huge increase in performance epo gives.

There are obviously other variables to take into account- he isnt as tired as he was after alp stages, the wind was different, and those can all be taken into account by experts whose job it is to compare his performance, but the point is that the original time should be smashed by such an ammount that it removes all doubt.

Like i said, its stupid, but its an idea.

 

[Anonymous]

Before 2010 I'd have certainly agreed with you, now I have my doubts. In any case I wouldn't count Basso's sister's involvement in the case relevant to the current situation. She was involved prior to 2006. The investigation has been ongoing since then. She certainly isn't dealing any more. And Ivan has been through the ringer since then.

Again I have my doubts, and don't assume one way or the other at the moment.

My gut says Basso is clean(ish).. hes managed to restore his image and reputation.. youd need to be really stupid to throw all that away with a lifetime ban. If he was heavily doped for the giro i would expect him to retire soon before he is caught for anything.

 

[rhubroma]

2006 means nothing in Italy. I saw Di Luca the other day in his nice audi4x4 without a care in the world....see him regularly on his top of the range wiliers riding with a bunch of guys laughing and joking breaking every red light along the coast road...

as for stopping, not possible here to stop earning money and keep up a certain level of lifestyle..they find other avenues to do the same thing...

sadly to win a GT in the current era, you need to be enhanced, but very very very carefully enhanced....

liquidgas doing a US Postal in the giro, they ain't on water....and through what ringer, probably was still on sponsor money and turning up at local bike shops for a fee to top it all up....nah we are given the impression that it hurts, but i have not seen it...

So you live in Abruzzo eh...Va bene, I understand this. True Latin peoples, and not just the Italians, have a more, shall we say, nonchalance, about dealing with the not living within certain "ethical" parameters. Look at Valverde's way of obstinantly refusing to admit any guilt.

As for breaking the red lights, that's quite normal, as you must be aware, in Italy. Road laws and trafic etiquette is simply given a much more subjective interpretation here: i.e. whatever is best for me. The Italians themselves are well aware of their incivility in this regard. But if you want to live in a place where the rules are respected Italy isn't for you. Go to Germany. I remember last summer driving down to Positano. The trafic from the Amalfi Coast that evening back to Naples was kilometers of cars lined up going nowhere. "Luckilly" we were headed in the opposite direction on the two-lane road. I enphasize two-lane because in reality the Neapolitans made it into a "three-lane" via. Incredible how fast the cars and scooters drove up the "middle lane," as if people going in our direction didn't exist while passing us at 100 kph with just centimeters to spare between us.

In any case, cycling may be starting to change in Italy. All the scandals have necessitated that something must be done. Now I'm not suggesting that there isn't still lots of ground to be conquered, just that Ivan has every reason to not F-up again and his blood parameters at this year's Giro, if acurately reported, don't, in themselves, give us reason to be suspect.

As for DiLuca as an example. His career was always chemically made from the start and, at the personal level, remains one who simply just doesn't get it. In any case he isn't near the talent of a Basso in a natural state.

 

[MadonePro]

don't be an idiot. The sport doesn't need doping full stop and anyone who advocates it is a piece of SH*T.

Kirchen is in hospital for probably a bad reaction to a blood product. Is it worth his life. NO. F O back to fanboy world.

People who advocate taking risks to win are absolute idiots and should look in the mirror and ask themselves would they let their children take these risks and if the answer is yes, well you shouldn't be allowed procreate.

LA was a decent 1 day racer. END OF. He won all his TdFs dirty and they count for nothing. He has never raced clean since '95 and never will. Sooner he goes down the better the sport will be and i hope he takes the rest of the dirt with him.


Clean riders;

Voekler
Cunego
Sastre
nearly anyone with talent that doesn't finish in the top 20 but finishes inside the top 30/40 and kills themselves to do it.

Evans No
Basso No

why evans isn't is BMC are not a clean squad. Phonak wasn't and i imagine BMC isn't, cant be if GH rides..

Basso, not a hope, sister involved, Opertion Peurto.....course he's not

Wiggins ride last year was very suspect in TdF. supposed loss of weight made him climb the GC by 80 or so places... i don't think so. the guy has gone of the radar after the Landis emails was made public and that to me is suspect. if he was clean he would have had something to say, not this silence.

it is very hard to name the clean guys. David Millar i imagine must be clean, but!!!!!!!!!.... he does stand to lose a huge amount if he is caught. he has tied his future to the sport by becoming a part owner of garmin, so that says to me he wants to remain in the sport...so to be not clean would be very stupid.

what is the most fool proof way for a rider to prove they are clean...might be a good thread on its own as we hear people's ideas

Where does one start with this post.

First you say 'doping is the evil of the sport', then you say that's the reason for Kirchen's current stay in hospital. You further add to this, by stating that unless you've nearly died in the race, your a drug cheat!
By definition that makes Kirchen both a drug cheat, and clean! Learn to form an argument please.

There is only quote, that in this forum, that sum's up the vitriolic diatribe, by individuals, that will never know the truth, as they are so far from the inner circle, and will remain that way.

That saying 'extraordinary accusations require extraordinary proof'.

I doubt you can provide it, and will no doubt bring up anecdotal references to 'so called fact'. Truth is, there is no proof, and yet people come onto a cycling forum, express a love of the sport, agree (as I do) that doping is bad for it, yet live in the past and want to find a victim!


Imagine this, even if they all doped, they'd still be a % difference in performance and ability. Each rider is different, unique and often at different points of there training/careers.

Take a look at the english football team, why are they failing? The reason, despite some of the squad being amongst the best in the world, the fan's and the media, choose to beat up a story, critize at the first opportunity, look for scandal etc. Yet according to the Puerto affair, there is over 85% footballer on that list!
Support the riders, let them it's ok to ride clean, understand that they are human, and get out on the bike and see how 'hard' it actually is to race up mountains.

 

[The Hitch]

Yet according to the Puerto affair, there is over 85% footballer on that list!

Wait. Are you saying that 85% of those caught in puerto were footballers? Or have i misunderstood?

 

[MadonePro]

Wait. Are you saying that 85% of those caught in puerto were footballers? Or have i misunderstood?

85% of the people were reported to be professional footballers, and the file was passed over to the authorities.


Hitch, Are you from Melbourne and coaching?

 

[The Hitch]

85% of the people were reported to be professional footballers, and the file was passed over to the authorities.


Hitch, Are you from Melbourne and coaching?

Ive never been to Australia and am not a coach. Dont know where you got that from.

But this footballer information is really interesting. So football does have real doping problems.

 

[Benotti69]

So you live in Abruzzo eh...Va bene, I understand this. True Latin peoples, and not just the Italians, have a more, shall we say, nonchalance, about dealing with the not living within certain "ethical" parameters. Look at Valverde's way of obstinantly refusing to admit any guilt.

Yep the coast of Abruzzo, with the mountains an hour by car...heaven. It seems to Italians to gain an advantage by any means is not viewed in the negative light it should be, sadly.

As for breaking the red lights, that's quite normal, as you must be aware, in Italy. Road laws and trafic etiquette is simply given a much more subjective interpretation here: i.e. whatever is best for me. The Italians themselves are well aware of their incivility in this regard. But if you want to live in a place where the rules are respected Italy isn't for you. Go to Germany. I remember last summer driving down to Positano. The trafic from the Amalfi Coast that evening back to Naples was kilometers of cars lined up going nowhere. "Luckilly" we were headed in the opposite direction on the two-lane road. I enphasize two-lane because in reality the Neapolitans made it into a "three-lane" via. Incredible how fast the cars and scooters drove up the "middle lane," as if people going in our direction didn't exist while passing us at 100 kph with just centimeters to spare between us.

Ah but the cars, scooters and Motobikes tend to slow and not all break them. But the cyclists don't even look...and not to many helmets.

In any case, cycling may be starting to change in Italy. All the scandals have necessitated that something must be done. Now I'm not suggesting that there isn't still lots of ground to be conquered, just that Ivan has every reason to not F-up again and his blood parameters at this year's Giro, if acurately reported, don't, in themselves, give us reason to be suspect.

There is a will and has always been one from on high to change it as there are Italians who have had enough of the non italian view of Italy and Italians as mafiosa and cheats, most of them tend to be opponents of Berlusconi...

As for DiLuca as an example. His career was always chemically made from the start and, at the personal level, remains one who simply just doesn't get it. In any case he isn't near the talent of a Basso in a natural state.

Di Luca is a big deal in cycling in Italy, not as big a deal as some others, but he has influence in this and other regions...there is a bike shop in Pescara that has at least 5 walls with full wall pictures of him in the giro and display his trophy, whether he has an invested interest in this shop i have yet to hear, but it is a shrine to the guy...and nope they ain't get any of my euros..

I think Basso had 2 years to 'prepare' for his return to racing and micro doping has been doing the rounds probably for 2/3 years if not more....yes he is talented but not all liquidgas is and to ride á la USPostal/Discovery etc...well we all know what that suggests

 

[rhubroma]

Yep the coast of Abruzzo, with the mountains an hour by car...heaven. It seems to Italians to gain an advantage by any means is not viewed in the negative light it should be, sadly.



Ah but the cars, scooters and Motobikes tend to slow and not all break them. But the cyclists don't even look...and not to many helmets.



There is a will and has always been one from on high to change it as there are Italians who have had enough of the non italian view of Italy and Italians as mafiosa and cheats, most of them tend to be opponents of Berlusconi...



Di Luca is a big deal in cycling in Italy, not as big a deal as some others, but he has influence in this and other regions...there is a bike shop in Pescara that has at least 5 walls with full wall pictures of him in the giro and display his trophy, whether he has an invested interest in this shop i have yet to hear, but it is a shrine to the guy...and nope they ain't get any of my euros..

I think Basso had 2 years to 'prepare' for his return to racing and micro doping has been doing the rounds probably for 2/3 years if not more....yes he is talented but not all liquidgas is and to ride á la USPostal/Discovery etc...well we all know what that suggests

As if Wall Street were any better.

Ok, are you American? And how long have you been living there?

Don't be scandalized by cyclists behavior, most come from simple backgrounds where "safety" isn't the obsesion that is among the more "civilized." As for not "looking," come on, don't be so puritanical. Its just pure anarchic chaos. In any case Italy is rather provincial in its local sentimentalisms, you know, campanilismo and that sort of thing. Don't thus be mislead by DiLuca's fanbase being so strong in the Pescara region. It certainly is not in other Italian localities.

As for Berlusconi, there simply is roughly 1/2 of Italy that has taken to him, whereas the other 1/2 is divided between a myriad of leftist ideologies. Don't kid yourself into thinking that the Berlusconi phenomenon is merely a charicature of italianità. Unfortuantely even the opponents of berlusconismo and the mafia, in many ways conform to the rather cynical notion that to get by one must be sly and tweek the rules. At the same time there are many in Italy who, as you say, envision something much, much better. But they would also be a noble class anywhere in the world.

Basso may have been microdosing, however, there is also the chance at least that he wasn't. Without that chance, we are lost.

 

[luckyboy]

An old post, added to this FdJeux, probably most of Cofidis, Saur, AG2R have some dirty-looking guys. Don't trust anyone high up on GC (breakaways excluded)..

Bonjour/Brioches la Boulangère/Bouygues Télécom/Bbox Bouygues Télécom.

Dopers/alleged dopers who rode there.

• Didier Rous, who admitted taking EPO whilst on Festina and was suspended for 6 months, signed for Bonjour in 2000 and stayed there until 2007.
• Joseba Beloki, who arrived from ONCE to ride for Brioches for some of 2004, was implicated in Puerto whilst at Liberty Seguros, and cleared.
• Laurent Brochard, who was also implicated in the Festina Affair and suspended for 6 months, rode for Bouygues in 05, 06 and 07.
Note: Laurent Lefèvre rode for Festina from 1997-99, but was one of the thee riders named as being clean. He joined Brioches in 2004, and is still with Bbox.

Riders who came from suspicious teams.

• Jean-Cyril Robin rode for Festina and US Postal from 1995 to 1998 before riding for Bonjour in 2000 and 2001. However, he broke omertà to speak out about doping after Pantani's death.
• Pascal Deramé, who rode for Bonjour in 2000, 2001 and 2002, rode for US Postal from 1997-99.
• Emmanuel Magnien rode for Festina in 1996 and 97, and rode for Bonjour in 2002 and Brioches in 2003.
• Unai Emilio Yus Querejeta, who rode for Brioches in 2004 and Bouygues in 05, came from a succession of Portuguese teams.
• Jonas Tschopp rode from 2004-06 at Phonak before joining Bouygues in 2007.


None of these, or any other rider at the team, has tested positive for anything whilst at that team (as far I know/can remember).

(I'm counting System U/Castorama as a different team, as there was no team from 96 until Bernaudeu set up Bonjour - Vendée U doesn't count either as they were a development team)

 

[workingclasshero]

hes been busy since april preparing for the tour (we dont need any jokes about the use of the word "preparing")

i think some new jokes is exactly what's needed, old one's getting a bit tedious

 

[chubbolini]

narrow as usual you guys..

Nicole Cooke is clean AND she speaks up against the dopers

Oh and Robert Miller being English?Please. And clean? Oh my father!

 

[Benotti69]

As if Wall Street were any better.

Ok, are you American? And how long have you been living there?

Don't be scandalized by cyclists behavior, most come from simple backgrounds where "safety" isn't the obsesion that is among the more "civilized." As for not "looking," come on, don't be so puritanical. Its just pure anarchic chaos. In any case Italy is rather provincial in its local sentimentalisms, you know, campanilismo and that sort of thing. Don't thus be mislead by DiLuca's fanbase being so strong in the Pescara region. It certainly is not in other Italian localities.

As for Berlusconi, there simply is roughly 1/2 of Italy that has taken to him, whereas the other 1/2 is divided between a myriad of leftist ideologies. Don't kid yourself into thinking that the Berlusconi phenomenon is merely a charicature of italianità. Unfortuantely even the opponents of berlusconismo and the mafia, in many ways conform to the rather cynical notion that to get by one must be sly and tweek the rules. At the same time there are many in Italy who, as you say, envision something much, much better. But they would also be a noble class anywhere in the world.

Basso may have been microdosing, however, there is also the chance at least that he wasn't. Without that chance, we are lost.

i am trying to keep what is a very layered society to quite simplistic terms for those who not the experience of living here.

I am not americano. I am from a western european republic!

Di Luca has shown up at all the major races in Italy as a specatator, maybe not the northern classic of Milan San Remo, but others, Yep he was there.

I'm sorry i cannot believe Basso is clean. He 'meant' to dope. I dont think he 'means' to ride clean.

I believe the micro dosing means the riders take pretty much the same amount of PEDs but in smaller doses more often. The times/speeds in the tours are not down. You cannot compete at the speeds with out it.

Berlusconi/Mafia...in my eyes no difference!

 

[rhubroma]

i am trying to keep what is a very layered society to quite simplistic terms for those who not the experience of living here.

I am not americano. I am from a western european republic!

Di Luca has shown up at all the major races in Italy as a specatator, maybe not the northern classic of Milan San Remo, but others, Yep he was there.

I'm sorry i cannot believe Basso is clean. He 'meant' to dope. I dont think he 'means' to ride clean.

I believe the micro dosing means the riders take pretty much the same amount of PEDs but in smaller doses more often. The times/speeds in the tours are not down. You cannot compete at the speeds with out it.

Berlusconi/Mafia...in my eyes no difference!

Su questo no c'è dubio...

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Thomas Voeckler
Pierrick Fedrigo
David Moncoutié
Pierre Rolland
Rubén Plaza
Linus Gerdemann
Sandy Casar
Damiano Cunego

...one of these names is a red herring.

Plus, though Euskaltel are hardly the team with the best reputation out there, it would absolutely break my heart if Amets Txurruka were to be +, and I'd like to think he's clean, given the lack of results for such ridiculously hard work.