Who is your Men's Rider of the Decade?

[Koronin]

Well, there are 5 (6 if you count the World Championships) monuments a year, but only 3 GTs. Also it's more unlikely, although not impossible, to win a GT on a fluke, especially the Tour.

In a certain way (not literally) I would compare it to winning the Premier League vs the FA Cup, or the Champions League. Certainly it's an amazing achievement to win the CL two or three times in a row, but the fans of most teams would rather win their domestic championship once if they had to choose.

Also, Sagan has won a lot of races, but he just hasn't won enough monuments yet to be really considered dominating.

What I bolded for me shows that winning a monument is much more difficult than winning a GT. This is part of the reason I place a much higher significance on winning one day races. Thus because you can win a one day race on a fluke, that by definition makes them much more difficult to win.

 

[Koronin]

Here's some numbers. Decade victories in the "Big Nine" races (3 Grand Tours, 5 Monuments, World/Olympic RR)

7 Froome & Nibali
5 Sagan, Cancellara, Gilbert
3 Valverde, Contador

That doesn't give a full picture. The numbers stated in earlier posts give much, much better overall picture. What a rider does during the entire season means more than what they do in a handful of races only. Again as I said based on number Froome is NOT in my top 5 list of riders and doesn't come close to Sagan, Valverde, Nibali and Gilbert. I place a much great value on versatility than on specialization.

 

[cantpedal]

Froome not versatile? He has proven he can win or take advantage of any terrain during a GC. Olympic medalist in TT and I can see him winning LBL orFleche Wallone if he tries in the near future. He's won seven grand Tours, and podiumed in 3 others, won mountains and combination jerseys during this decade.

 

[tobydawq]

Sagan and Froome seem to be number 1 and 2, which isn't that surprising. They have only ever shared the first two positions in a race once, but in quite spectacular fashion, which is surely worth a rewatch:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEfOcZ8fVBA

 

[Koronin]

Froome not versatile? He has proven he can win or take advantage of any terrain during a GC. Olympic medalist in TT and I can see him winning LBL orFleche Wallone if he tries in the near future. He's won seven grand Tours, and podiumed in 3 others, won mountains and combination jerseys during this decade.

He's NEVER proven he can do anything in a one day race. Sorry, but he is NOT versatile. Exactly how many 1 day races has he won? How many podiums has he even been close to in one day races. He's not only never won a won day race, he's never come close a podium in one. Again winning a GT means the SAME as winning a one day race or a one week race. it is NOT more important and holds no more weight than other races. Valverde's GT podiums combined with his one day race wins AND podiums is much more impressive than Froome's GT's record is because it shows his versatility that Froome does NOT have. Froome also has a LOT less wins with 2 MORE years racing in this decade. For that matter Froome has LESS race days with 2 MORE years racing. Also as Froome has never shown an ability to race a one day race and being in his mid 30's it's virtually impossible for him to ever win any one day race and Fleche Wallone requires you to be a puncheur which Froome is not close to being. This doesn't take into account his injuries last year.

 

[tobydawq]

He's NEVER proven he can do anything in a one day race. Sorry, but he is NOT versatile. Exactly how many 1 day races has he won? How many podiums has he even been close to in one day races. He's not only never won a won day race, he's never come close a podium in one. Again winning a GT means the SAME as winning a one day race or a one week race. it is NOT more important and holds no more weight than other races. Valverde's GT podiums combined with his one day race wins AND podiums is much more impressive than Froome's GT's record is because it shows his versatility that Froome does NOT have. Froome also has a LOT less wins with 2 MORE years racing in this decade. For that matter Froome has LESS race days with 2 MORE years racing. Also as Froome has never shown an ability to race a one day race and being in his mid 30's it's virtually impossible for him to ever win any one day race and Fleche Wallone requires you to be a puncheur which Froome is not close to being. This doesn't take into account his injuries last year.

Yeah, WINNING the Tour DE France and THE Tour Down UNDER is the exact same THING.

 

[Red Rick]

Yeah hard time giving Froome the hypothetical one day race bonus.

 

[Parker]

That doesn't give a full picture. The numbers stated in earlier posts give much, much better overall picture. What a rider does during the entire season means more than what they do in a handful of races only.

OK. Let's have a look at all World Tour victories

12 Froome & Gilbert
11 Valverde
10 Sagan
9 Nibali
7 Contador & van Avermaet
6 Cancellara

Versatility is overrated. No-one cares if Messi or Brady can defend, if Steve Smith can bowl or that Usain Bolt just runs short distances. Besides, Geraint Thomas is the most versatile champion. Valverde just sprints at the end of hilly races.

 

[Red Rick]

OK. Let's have a look at all World Tour victories

12 Froome & Gilbert
11 Valverde
10 Sagan
9 Nibali
7 Contador & van Avermaet
6 Cancellara

Versatility is overrated. No-one cares if Messi or Brady can defend, if Steve Smith can bowl or that Usain Bolt just runs short distances. Besides, Geraint Thomas is the most versatile champion. Valverde just sprints at the end of hilly races.

Tell that to all the Federer fans saying Nadal's palmares is too clay heavy despite the fact that dude literally won everything except the WTF.

 

[Koronin]

OK. Let's have a look at all World Tour victories

12 Froome & Gilbert
11 Valverde
10 Sagan
9 Nibali
7 Contador & van Avermaet
6 Cancellara

Versatility is overrated. No-one cares if Messi or Brady can defend, if Steve Smith can bowl or that Usain Bolt just runs short distances. Besides, Geraint Thomas is the most versatile champion. Valverde just sprints at the end of hilly races.

Versatility is highly valued. So Froome and Gilbert have 1 more WT win that does NOT include stages having raced 2 MORE seasons than he did. That seems to prove that Valverde is the better rider.

 

[Red Rick]

Deffo not giving Valverde hypothetical season bonuses tho

 

[Parker]

Versatility is highly valued. So Froome and Gilbert have 1 more WT win that does NOT include stages having raced 2 MORE seasons than he did. That seems to prove that Valverde is the better rider.

Grand Tour stage wins: Froome 14 v Valverde 12 (both behind Sagan 16 and Nibali 15). For all WT stages Froome leads 24 -22 for the decade.

As for missing two years, let's remember why that was. It wasn't down to injury or being too young.

 

[Koronin]

Deffo not giving Valverde hypothetical season bonuses tho

I'm just stating that it took Froome 2 more seasons to get 1 more WT overall (or classics) win than Valverde. Although Valverde has a stripped Tour of Romandia overall win, thus not a hypothetical win a real one that was taken away.

 

[Koronin]

Grand Tour stage wins: Froome 14 v Valverde 12 (both behind Sagan 16 and Nibali 15)

As for missing two years, let's remember why that was. It wasn't down to injury or being too young.

Reason why doesn't matter. He missed two seasons that Froome was able to race. Besides you including a race win that was handed to Froome that he did not win on the road, while you are discounting a WT overall win that Valverde DID win on the road that was stripped.

That's only GT's, not all WT stage wins.

I also have stated there is an argument for Nibali and Sagan.

 

[christopherrowe]

Which brings us back to sticking a price tag on winning a GT vs winning a monument, or winning a 1 week stagerace vs winning a classic, etc.
For me personally it goes like this: Grand Tour >> Monument/WCC > Classic > GT stage > 1 week stage race >> other one day race / stage from 1 week stage race.

Okay, this sounds like a fun exercise.

I’ll start with a quote from the Epilogue of the third edition of Lucy Fallon and Adrian Bell’s Viva la Vuelta:

“The emotion that so many fans invest in cycle racing is strongly linked to the history of the sport and to its accompanying myths—more so, perhaps, than most other sports. For that reason it could be argued that the organizers of the major one-day classics are more fortunate in that they seem closer to our image of racing in what we continue to call the ‘heroic age.’”

That sets the stage—supplies the context—for my criteria in ranking races in the manner Logic has above (I’ve actually fined things out a bit further and separated the GTs into three entries, as well as adding in the world championships to make for an even dozen categories). While this ranking is specifically and definitely for the ten years from 2010 to 2019 inclusive, one factor I’ve taken into account is how the races of this decade stack up against their earlier editions, going back so far in some cases as the last quarter of the 19th century. I have ranked these races, then, on their sporting qualities to be sure, but also on their passion, on their excitement, on their predictability, on their historical value, on their “epic-ness,” and on my gut reactions. So, here we go…

(1) Monuments
(2) Other Classics
(3) World Championships
(4) Giro GC
(5) Vuelta GC
(6) TdF GC
(7) One week(ish) stage race GC
(8) “Minor” one day race
(9) Stage from the Giro
(10) Stage from the Vuelta
(11) Stage from the TdF
(12) Stage from a one week(ish) stage race

 

[Parker]

That's only GT's, not all WT stage wins.

WT stage wins: Froome 24, Valverde 23 (I've included his upgraded one this time), Nibali still 15.

 

[Breezy1985]

Reason why doesn't matter. He missed two seasons that Froome was able to race.

It very much matters. He cheated and that's a professional decision not a stroke of bad luck or an illness and should be taken into consideration as it was a choice he made

 

[Koronin]

WT stage wins: Froome 24, Valverde 23 (I've included his upgraded one this time), Nibali still 15.

So Froome has 1 more win in 2 more seasons. Thus proving Valverde is the better rider. Froome has a lot LESS total wins in two more seasons, along with less race days as well.

 

[Koronin]

It very much matters. He cheated and that's a professional decision not a stroke of bad luck or an illness and should be taken into consideration as it was a choice he made

You mean being given a ban from the era in which the ENTIRE PELOTON was doing the same thing. So no the reason is meaningless. Again Froome has raced 2 MORE years and has LESS overall wins and only 1 more WT win. Thus proving he's not as good.

 

[Parker]

Okay, this sounds like a fun exercise.

I’ll start with a quote from the Epilogue of the third edition of Lucy Fallon and Adrian Bell’s Viva la Vuelta:

“The emotion that so many fans invest in cycle racing is strongly linked to the history of the sport and to its accompanying myths—more so, perhaps, than most other sports. For that reason it could be argued that the organizers of the major one-day classics are more fortunate in that they seem closer to our image of racing in what we continue to call the ‘heroic age.’”

That sets the stage—supplies the context—for my criteria in ranking races in the manner Logic has above (I’ve actually fined things out a bit further and separated the GTs into three entries, as well as adding in the world championships to make for an even dozen categories). While this ranking is specifically and definitely for the ten years from 2010 to 2019 inclusive, one factor I’ve taken into account is how the races of this decade stack up against their earlier editions, going back so far in some cases as the last quarter of the 19th century. I have ranked these races, then, on their sporting qualities to be sure, but also on their passion, on their excitement, on their predictability, on their historical value, on their “epic-ness,” and on my gut reactions. So, here we go…

(1) Monuments
(2) Other Classics
(3) World Championships
(4) Giro GC
(5) Vuelta GC
(6) TdF GC
(7) One week(ish) stage race GC
(8) “Minor” one day race
(9) Stage from the Giro
(10) Stage from the Vuelta
(11) Stage from the TdF
(12) Stage from a one week(ish) stage race

Any list that doesn't have the Tour de France first is nonsense. It's the only bike race most people have heard of.

 

[christopherrowe]

Any list that doesn't have the Tour de France first is nonsense. It's the only bike race most people have heard of.

There are lots of things I believe that "most people" don't. But more to the point, isn't this a forum for aficionados?

 

[Koronin]

Any list that doesn't have the Tour de France first is nonsense. It's the only bike race most people have heard of.

If you are referring to the US, I'd suspect most people have never heard of the Tour de France or bike racing at all outside of the Olympics. If you are referring to Northern Europe I'd suspect most people prefer the classics.

Next, this is a forum of cycling fans, so what most people have or haven't heard of is irrelevant.

 

[Parker]

There are lots of things I believe that "most people" don't. But more to the point, isn't this a forum for aficionados?

Not if that list of yours is anything to go by.

 

[Parker]

If you are referring to the US, I'd suspect most people have never heard of the Tour de France or bike racing at all outside of the Olympics. If you are referring to Northern Europe I'd suspect most people prefer the classics.

Next, this is a forum of cycling fans, so what most people have or haven't heard of is irrelevant.

Ask anywhere around the world. The Tour is the race they know. Ask people in the sport what the most important race is (to the sport not them) and you'll only get one answer.

 

[christopherrowe]

Not if that list of yours is anything to go by.

It seems like by your logic the best writer of fiction in the English language has to be Dan Brown. I don't understand your hostility toward the races that first created and continue to define the sport. This being a text-based medium, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt regarding your tone.