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Winning a Monument is big, or WC, I won't deny that. It makes a career for some riders, and many good riders never achieve that. But I was trying to make another point. Results throughout the whole season matters too. You can have a good season even if you didn't had that big win (although I notice little obsession with those around here, as if that is the only thing that matters in cycling).
Gilbert 2019 - very good season
Riders who had a better year - Roglic, Alaphilippe, Bernal, Fuglsang, Valverde, Pogacar, Van Der Poel.
Nibali 2018 - Also a very good season
Riders who had a better year - Valverde, Sagan, Simon Yates, Viviani, Alaphilippe, Geraint Thomas, Dumoulin, Pinot, Froome.
Did Bettiol have a better season than Valverde?
Did Bettiol have a better season than Valverde?
In one year, people will remember Valverde's 2019 more than Bettiol's 2019. In ten years, everyone will remember that Bettiol won the Ronde and nobody will remember what Valverde did in 2019 (other than that he wore the rainbow jersey).
Likewise with Nibali in 2018 compared to, say, Sagan, Viviani or Pinot, who Blanco claims had better seasons. I don't disagree, but if you want a place in history, do it the Nibali way.
Zaugg had 1 big win in 2011 Gilbert annihilated 2011 including LBL Amstel San Sebastian and FWBettiol can dream on, he can.
Or what, do you rate Zaugg's and Gilbert's 2011 seasons equal because "one big win for each" as well?
Bettiol can dream on, he can.
Or what, do you rate Zaugg's and Gilbert's 2011 seasons equal because "one big win for each" as well?
Zaugg had 1 big win in 2011 Gilbert annihilated 2011 including LBL Amstel San Sebastian and FW
100% Yes. Bettiol won a Monument and earned himself at least a footnote in the history of the sport. Valverde won a stage of the Vuelta and a few minor things nobody will ever mention again when discussing his stellar career,
I think this is around the 2,341st time you mention those records, so at least all readers of this forum will remember it forever.
Gilbert didn't "only" win the biggest one day race of the year (probably the only race rated higher than the WCC in terms of palmares), he also won two GT stages. That's a very good season by anyone's standard, and in my book better than winning one stage in a GT, one in UAE tour and Route Occitanie. Valverde didn't have a bad season, but he's simply missing a big win. Gilbert got the biggest win in 1 day cycling and not only that.I know what happened, I was purposefully exaggerating my point...
Which remains that I agree with Blanco that one big win does not a season make. Unless it's in a Grand Tour where you need to be good throughout a long race.
I might take Gent Wevelgem and Roubaix over Lombardia and MSR, let alone either individually. But that's just me. Either way, those two races are worth way more to me than either Lombardia or MSR individually.2018 Sagan won G-W and P-R. Pinot won Lombardia. Nibali M-S. I would say it is a tie between those three.
But I agree with what your broader point was, with Valverde and Bettiol. A major win means that much more than good results over a whole year but nothing major, in the grand scheme of things.
1000% No.100% Yes. Bettiol won a Monument and earned himself at least a footnote in the history of the sport. Valverde won a stage of the Vuelta and a few minor things nobody will ever mention again when discussing his stellar career,
Are you deliberately omitting the fact that Valverde came 2nd in the Vuelta and Lombardia, or that results doesn't mean anything to you? Or the fact that he won Spanish Nationals, and the Occitanie overall and have a podium in *** load of races (which of course Gilbert doesn't have). Or why the *** we watch cycling throughout the year when in fact only 7-8 races count?!!!Gilbert didn't "only" win the biggest one day race of the year (probably the only race rated higher than the WCC in terms of palmares), he also won two GT stages. That's a very good season by anyone's standard, and in my book better than winning one stage in a GT, one in UAE tour and Route Occitanie. Valverde didn't have a bad season, but he's simply missing a big win. Gilbert got the biggest win in 1 day cycling and not only that.
He won Occitanie overall? Now, THAT changes things!Are you deliberately omitting the fact that Valverde came 2nd in the Vuelta and Lombardia, or that results doesn't mean anything to you? Or the fact that he won Spanish Nationals, and the Occitanie overall and have a podium in * load of races (which of course Gilbert doesn't have). Or why the * we watch cycling throughout the year when in fact only 7-8 races count?!!!
You tell me since you seem to have a good idea.Please tell me how many Occitanie overalls is the difference between winning a monument and getting 2nd?
But it's not coming to a tie-break...I would rate placings as tiebreakers rather than adding up to wins.
1000% No.
Vuelta and Lombardia podiums at least equals that Ronde win, not to mention other results of Valverde.
Or do you think Matthew Hayman, Oliver Zaugg, Johan Vansummeren, Nick Nuyens, Steffen Wesemann have a place beside Alaphilippe, Pinot, Chaves, Pozzato and Rebellin?
Or do you think that Dan Martin, Niki Terpstra, John Degenkolb and Stijn Devolder have a right to stand beside Purito Rodriguez, Raymond Poulidor, Franco Bitossi, Herman Van Springel, Miguel Poblet?!
Ones have a footnote, but the others have an actual place in cycling history, yet imagine, they have a same number of so called big wins.
Pretty much this. Everything else is just stat padding but nothing really significant in the grand scheme of things. Especially when you're talking about an entire decade.Failing to win the Vuelta and Lombardia does not at least equal winning the Ronde. This is road cycling not track and field or skiing or other sports that are about medals. It’s a sport about winning. Getting a nice placing is an excellent result in a big race but it doesn’t compare to winning one.
Your examples of riders to compare are mostly absurd. Of course a rider who has won two Monuments and a few minor things doesn’t have a similar palmares to a guy with two Monuments and 26 GT stages. Of course a guy whose only pro win was Lombardia doesn’t have a similar palmares to a guy with MSR, FW, San Sebastián, multiple GT stages.
Treating tier one (3 GTs, 5 Monuments, WCRR) wins as the most important, each one season defining in its own right, doesn’t mean treating everything else as trivial. There’s a broad second tier of big wins below them that are also very significant. You could reasonably argue about the details of what to include but for me at least, the other big wins are major non Monument classics, the biggest one week races, WCITT and GT stages. That’s another 75 to 80 big wins each year. When we start talking about weighing other wins on a riders palmares, we really do have to remember that there were probably a hundred or two hundred or five hundred more important wins taken in that year alone.