Who should lead Liquigas in 2010?

[blackcat]

Mountain Goat annalogy sounds good. I disagree with its application come race day but it should be sound enough. Pellizotti for the Giro and bluff like all ******y at the Tour. Kreuziger was the form younger rider leading into the Tour and until Mt. Ventoux, Nibali had his number. I wasn't shocked, but I was surprised. Thought it would be the reverse.

Basso vs Levi. No real comparison. Different team environments until Levi joined Disco. Blackcat look at the times on those ITTs. None of the top riders do those times anymore. Todays times are important. Basso better climber than Lance in 2005? Equal, but not better. He never dropped him, a prerequisite to earn that title. Hypothetically Basso would have podiumed in a Tour or two, I just don't see him ever winning it. He is an Italian Levi or perhaps Levi is an American Basso (note height and hair differences). Both Diesels, both with solid ITT ability and can go with the punches in the hills. I doubt Basso would have won the Tour in 2006 if he'd have raced. I think Vino and Jan would have beaten him. Levi and Basso are very similar these days. Similar in the Giro but the Vuelta though two years apart does provide some insight. Levi, 2nd behind Contador, Basso 5th. Case closed, Basso was banned and he is not the rider he once was. They are very similar.

Blackcat you can state that Basso is classy, but without that medical program in line (you acknowledge Levi did not have it up to scratch) then he would have been, in all likelihood, in the same boat. The @ss boat dropping time all over the place, often unexpectedly and the bewilderment of the commentators.

my hypothetical is Basso getting on the Armstrong 2009 program. Basso on that program, wins the 2009 Tour.

 

[Cracked Again]

hella form and hella luck

Are you from Nor Cal by chance ?

 

[auscyclefan94]

If I were the DS, these would be my realistic goals for 2010 set out clearly in dot point form:

For the Giro:
- Pellizotti for the win, Basso as the decoy/top5.
- Maybe include Nibali as support and training for the Tour.
- The course is suited to Pellizotti's strengths and I believe he can win it.

For the Tour:
- Basso for the win, Nibali as the decoy/top5.
- Kreuziger and Pellizotti as key domestiques. Full commitment to their leaders is required, no KOM, unless a podium is way out of the picture.
- All four MUST be in the Tour team.
- Basso winning is a long shot, but I say, give him one last crack at the tour.
- If Basso fails, Nibali is the man for the future.
- I do not believe Nibali can win in 2010, as such, Basso is leader

For the Vuelta:
- Kreuziger for a top 5.
- This is achievable
- If Nibali skipped the Giro, he shares equal leadership, and could podium.
- He deserves a proper shot at GC and is becoming a great talent.
- Include well-rounded team mates for stage wins also

I'm unsure which GT the poll is for, I assume it is the Tour leader, so I voted Basso.

Agreed, except i would go Pellizotti and Nibali at the Giro. Basso and Kreuziger as leaders at the tour with Nibali as a back up plan. Kreuziger and Pellizotti/Basso can do the vuelta. For the vuelta it can only be either Pellizotti or Basso. You will also have to think about were you are going to fit Bennati in there. If all four of those guys ride the tour though that could be a formidable line up but that won't happen.

 

[blackcat]

I would take all 4 to the Tour in their best form, so only go to the Giro and phone it in, do not ride for results.

 

[Jancouver]

Basso should get the last crack at TDF but Kreuziger is the future.

Roman can climb and he is the only Liquigas rider who can do well in TT.

He was sick this year during the tour and he still made it to the top 10.

J.

 

[blackcat]

Basso should get the last crack at TDF but Kreuziger is the future.

Roman can climb and he is the only Liquigas rider who can do well in TT.

He was sick this year during the tour and he still made it to the top 10.

J.

Nibali was 4rd in the World tt champs in 2005 I think. Jani Brajkovic won, Dekker seconds, Nibali third.

Think Nibali was top 10 in the final tt this year at the Tour.

He is probably the classiest chrono rider on Liquigas. Kreuziger indeed is younger, and is also a mighty prologue rider. Atm, I prefer Nibali. But there is probably little splitting them

 

[yakko!]

They need to keep Nibali happy if they want him to extend with the team. He already wanted to leave for Sky, but they wouldn't let him out of the last year in his contract. He is the man of the future, so you'd better make sure he's there for the future and support him.

 

[karlboss]

If I were to rank their chances in form in a 3 weeks tour.
1.Basso,
2.Pellizotti,
3.Nibali,
4.Kreuziger.
I don't think the first 2's best years are behind them, but the younger guys will improve more than the older 2. So its really hard to tell where they'll be at next year.
I'd take all 4 to both giro and tour, let whoever wants to ride the vuelta, ride it. I'd like to see all at full strength for the tour, but I can't see an italian team with 3 italian leaders and none having a go at the overall. So I'd give it to pellizotti and the others to ride support and prepare for the tour.
Support basso completely at the tour.

How are all of their contracts? Will they be retained for 2010 and 2011.

 

[blackcat]

Pellizotti is a distant 4th. Think 2008 Giro was a CERA aberration.

Kreuziger won Suisse when he was only 22, may have even been 21, in 2008. Won the mtn chrono also. Dont see how you can possibly put him behind porpoise and shark if it is on potential.

If I were to rank their chances in form in a 3 weeks tour.
1.Basso,
2.Pellizotti,
3.Nibali,
4.Kreuziger.
I don't think the first 2's best years are behind them, but the younger guys will improve more than the older 2. So its really hard to tell where they'll be at next year.
I'd take all 4 to both giro and tour, let whoever wants to ride the vuelta, ride it. I'd like to see all at full strength for the tour, but I can't see an italian team with 3 italian leaders and none having a go at the overall. So I'd give it to pellizotti and the others to ride support and prepare for the tour.
Support basso completely at the tour.

How are all of their contracts? Will they be retained for 2010 and 2011.

 

[Galic Ho]

my hypothetical is Basso getting on the Armstrong 2009 program. Basso on that program, wins the 2009 Tour.

Yeah I agree, but only that he'd beat Armstrong and make the podium, maybe win the Giro or Vuelta. Contador isn't on anything Lance is not also using. Basso is not that good that he can beat Contador is you even the playing field. The accelerations would hurt him too much and he'd still bleed time in the time trials.

I've never been a Basso fan. Plenty of people like him, I never have had an affinity for his riding. I respect it, but don't rate it above others. Which explains in part why I disagree.

Maybe give him one last crack and then pawn him off to another team or keep him as a super domestique for Roman and Nicenzo. Pellizotti should go for the Giro win.

 

[Galic Ho]

Blackcat, Nibali was 2'06" behind Contador in Annecy. Just behind the Schecklet. Leaves them outside the top 20, but still close. Kreuziger was about the same, ten seconds back from memory.

 

[blackcat]

Yeah I agree, but only that he'd beat Armstrong and make the podium, maybe win the Giro or Vuelta. Contador isn't on anything Lance is not also using. Basso is not that good that he can beat Contador is you even the playing field. The accelerations would hurt him too much and he'd still bleed time in the time trials.

I've never been a Basso fan. Plenty of people like him, I never have had an affinity for his riding. I respect it, but don't rate it above others. Which explains in part why I disagree.

Maybe give him one last crack and then pawn him off to another team or keep him as a super domestique for Roman and Nicenzo. Pellizotti should go for the Giro win.

I was talking a Basso if he had held his upward progression. Now Basso is what, 31? This is his peak. He should still be able to take it to Contador on the climbs imo. The only difficulty is the chrono. But Leepy Leipheimer won in 2008 Vuelta, if you subtract the bonifications.

Who wants to compare a 2008 Ricco and a 2008 Leepy to Contador? Hey? He is vulnerable.

Basso is a better tter than Leepy if he gets it back, and the program.

Armstrong is 38. May as well be 48. Dont substitute StrongArm with Basso. He is not the benchmark for Basso. Basso can be a few levels above. Basso was below his potential in 2005, and was still a stronger climber then. Now Armstrong is too old.

What Armstrong proved, is form is just a euphemism for medical program. You get your parameters right, then bingo, there is your form. Just once I would love a commentator to allude to this.

Blackcat, Nibali was 2'06" behind Contador in Annecy. Just behind the Schecklet. Leaves them outside the top 20, but still close. Kreuziger was about the same, ten seconds back from memory.

Yeah, but Schleck was prolly on something more. Nibali came to pay his dues, go for a high overall, and just bide his time. Better tter than Schleck.

And dont call Schleck by adding a suffix -let. Sounds like you are a cuckolded fanboi.

 

[karlboss]

I wasn't placing them on potential. I was ranking them on GT results in 2009. Pelizotti is the better GT rider improved from 2008 -2009 and will improve again for 2010 and will be better over 3 weeks than nibali and kreuziger, unless there are more time trial kms

 

[craig1985]

Basso never attacked Armstrong. It was clear he was stronger.

So how much do you think it took out of Basso by riding the Giro? He really should of abandoned when he got sick. Even playing with the hot sauce, I doubt it would be possible to win both the Giro and the Tour.

 

[craig1985]

I was talking a Basso if he had held his upward progression. Now Basso is what, 31? This is his peak. He should still be able to take it to Contador on the climbs imo. The only difficulty is the chrono. But Leepy Leipheimer won in 2008 Vuelta, if you subtract the bonifications.

Who wants to compare a 2008 Ricco and a 2008 Leepy to Contador? Hey? He is vulnerable.

Basso is a better tter than Leepy if he gets it back, and the program.

Armstrong is 38. May as well be 48. Dont substitute StrongArm with Basso. He is not the benchmark for Basso. Basso can be a few levels above. Basso was below his potential in 2005, and was still a stronger climber then. Now Armstrong is too old.

What Armstrong proved, is form is just a euphemism for medical program. You get your parameters right, then bingo, there is your form. Just once I would love a commentator to allude to this.




Yeah, but Schleck was prolly on something more. Nibali came to pay his dues, go for a high overall, and just bide his time. Better tter than Schleck.

And dont call Schleck by adding a suffix -let. Sounds like you are a cuckolded fanboi.

Anybody can get away with it on a forum without ever showing evidence, but I doubt a commentator would ever get away with it. Especially with Armstrong, unless ruining your reputation and getting your pants sued off is what you want.

 

[timmers]

Basso had recitified his chrono weakness. His climbing was superior to Armstrong in that final year, 2005, and he just had to make his chrono a weapon to rival his climbing. In my mind, he had achieved that for the next era post-Armstrong. He was a better timetrialer than Wiggins, than Landis, than Vande Velde.

He would have won 2006, 2007, 2008, and this year. All on CSC. Schlecks would have been working for him.

I think you must be on the same juice as Basso was on. No way is his time trialling going to be up to scatch if testing is legit. He was a white jersey top ten on a good year and those days are long gone.

Nibali has't got it as he would have given it a better go this year on Ventoux if he had the legs.

I like Kreuziger for the future but he needs total support something that Liquigas are not providing.

 

[blackcat]

I think you must be on the same juice as Basso was on. No way is his time trialling going to be up to scatch if testing is legit. He was a white jersey top ten on a good year and those days are long gone.

Nibali has't got it as he would have given it a better go this year on Ventoux if he had the legs.

I like Kreuziger for the future but he needs total support something that Liquigas are not providing.

Basso beats Leipheimer and Landis in the second chrono in 2005, in 2005 Giro he won the last chrono. Beating guys like Honchar. In 2006 he was under 30 seconds off Ullrich coming second in the Giro chrono.

Basso developed a pedigree in the chrono. If Armstrong gets carte blanche in the testing, why cant Italy's number one prospect?

 

[Galic Ho]

I was talking a Basso if he had held his upward progression. Now Basso is what, 31? This is his peak. He should still be able to take it to Contador on the climbs imo. The only difficulty is the chrono. But Leepy Leipheimer won in 2008 Vuelta, if you subtract the bonifications.

Who wants to compare a 2008 Ricco and a 2008 Leepy to Contador? Hey? He is vulnerable.

Basso is a better tter than Leepy if he gets it back, and the program.

I realise you were talking about Basso if he had not faced Puerto and the ramifications. He'd definitely be better than he is now.

Levi in 2008 had a gun ITT at the Vuelta. Ricco was dominant in the Dolomites and Alps in the Giro, so too was Pellizotti and Sella. Contador is vulnerable, or to phrase this in another manner, he was vulnerable then. AC has improved and will gain more ground in future years, just like Basso would have.

I went over the time bonuses months back for both the 2008 Vuelta and 2007 Tour. Subtract them and Levi and Cadel, respectively would have been much closer, but Contador would still have won, but not by much.

Armstrong is 38. May as well be 48. Dont substitute StrongArm with Basso. He is not the benchmark for Basso. Basso can be a few levels above. Basso was below his potential in 2005, and was still a stronger climber then. Now Armstrong is too old.

Sounds like you think Lance won't be any better than his golden years. I;m in that boat. Better than this year, sure, by a smidgen, nothing more. Benchmarking should only be done on a personal basis, comparing to prior form. Basso from what I have read has a similar VO2max to Armstrong (low 80s), but that is it. He would have reached a higher level than Lance, alas, twas not meant to be. I could certainly see him at the Shack. How old is Basso? I thought he was 32 this year.

What Armstrong proved, is form is just a euphemism for medical program. You get your parameters right, then bingo, there is your form. Just once I would love a commentator to allude to this.

That last bit requires backbone and massive cojones. Men like this don't exist in cycling unless there names are Greg, Paul or David and they hail from a predominantly anglo-saxon nation. All men with the surname Sherwen are excluded by public consensus.

Yeah, but Schleck was prolly on something more. Nibali came to pay his dues, go for a high overall, and just bide his time. Better tter than Schleck.

And dont call Schleck by adding a suffix -let. Sounds like you are a cuckolded fanboi.

I am a fan of Andy Schleck. He is quality you can bank on. Nibali does have a better ITT. He was a surprise, a good one at that. He did very well. I'll be watching next season in greater detail.

Like craig1985, I doubt Basso could have pulled the double in 2006. That is stretching the imagination too far.

 

[blackcat]

I realise you were talking about Basso if he had not faced Puerto and the ramifications. He'd definitely be better than he is now.

Levi in 2008 had a gun ITT at the Vuelta. Ricco was dominant in the Dolomites and Alps in the Giro, so too was Pellizotti and Sella. Contador is vulnerable, or to phrase this in another manner, he was vulnerable then. AC has improved and will gain more ground in future years, just like Basso would have.

I went over the time bonuses months back for both the 2008 Vuelta and 2007 Tour. Subtract them and Levi and Cadel, respectively would have been much closer, but Contador would still have won, but not by much.



Sounds like you think Lance won't be any better than his golden years. I;m in that boat. Better than this year, sure, by a smidgen, nothing more. Benchmarking should only be done on a personal basis, comparing to prior form. Basso from what I have read has a similar VO2max to Armstrong (low 80s), but that is it. He would have reached a higher level than Lance, alas, twas not meant to be. I could certainly see him at the Shack. How old is Basso? I thought he was 32 this year.



That last bit requires backbone and massive cojones. Men like this don't exist in cycling unless there names are Greg, Paul or David and they hail from a predominantly anglo-saxon nation. All men with the surname Sherwen are excluded by public consensus.



I am a fan of Andy Schleck. He is quality you can bank on. Nibali does have a better ITT. He was a surprise, a good one at that. He did very well. I'll be watching next season in greater detail.

Like craig1985, I doubt Basso could have pulled the double in 2006. That is stretching the imagination too far.

2007, Levi lost 20 seconds from a penalty? Cos he held on, the stage Rass won in a break, and Rogers got injured. Leepy had a mechanical at the wrong time, and held onto the team car. Final mtn top finish, Leepy worked for pistolero then he passed him later on, after Rass had dropped him.

If Leepy gets no time penalty, plus Contador works for Leepy, Leepy wins GC. In fact, even if Rass had ridden, and Leepy was the team leader, he could have won. He would have if Rass' time on the breakaway was neutralised.

You can be a fan of A Schleck. Just dont use the suffix, sounds very cuckolded fanboi

 

[Rominger]

Back in the 06 Giro Basso was 9 minutes ahead of the rest of the world, this year he struggled to make any attack stick, he isn't getting any younger, he might be getting cleaner and a clean Basso is simply not as good as a chemically enhanced one, he'll ride the tour as leader on paper but I rckon it will be a bluff to let one of the two young guns have a pop at sneaking some cheeky time on a seemingly unimportant stage. Basso doesn't have a tour in his legs without 'assistance' he doesn't have the jump of Contador (or een the Schleck duo for that matter) or the TT ability. He was going for it in this years Vuelta and if he had the legs he should have been so far ahead of Valverde in both the hills and the TT's. If he can't beat a (relatively speaking) weak field in Spain does anyone honestly think he can beat a stronger bunch in France?

I can imagine Basso and Franco having a falling out, especially after they trod on one anothers toes this year in the Giro when Basso tried to pull back time for himself instead of helping Franco put Menchov under the hammer.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Yeah.
Levi got a 10 second penalty for the car pulling all the way back to the rear of the peloton, at 80kph, just in time for the climb.
Evans and Mosquera got a 20 second penalty. One, have taking a lengthy hold on a water bottle and the other, taking a water bottle inside the final 10km, from a fan dressed in Galicia kit.

Go figure.

Have to agree. Basso would certainly have taken the Tour in 2006/7/8.
I'd say 2009 would have been a toss up.
Crucially, as Blackcat has been at pains to point out, CSC and the Schlecks would have been his domestique help, as would Sastre, until this year.

 

[craig1985]

Basso
Sastre
A Schleck
F Schleck
N Sorensen
O'Grady
Cancellara
Voight
Zabriskie/Vande Velde/Julich/Arvesen (take your pick)

That would be near unbeatable for mine.

 

[Anonymous]

Basso would certainly have taken the Tour in 2006/7/8.
I'd say 2009 would have been a toss up.
Crucially, as Blackcat has been at pains to point out, CSC and the Schlecks would have been his domestique help, as would Sastre, until this year.

For me personally, I replace "would" with "could", but agree with everything you said.

I cannot say that for certain he "would" of one, but his career results suggest he "could" of.

It's a bit like saying Contador "will" win seven tours. Rather, I would say he "can" win seven tours.

A bit of a technicality, but thats my thoughts on Basso.

I'll be very interested to see him in the Tour next year. Leakygas are superstrong for 2010

 

[Anonymous]

Basso
Sastre
A Schleck
F Schleck
N Sorensen
O'Grady
Cancellara
Voight
Zabriskie/Vande Velde/Julich/Arvesen (take your pick)

That would be near unbeatable for mine.

Personally, I'd do this:

Basso
Sastre
A Schleck
F Schleck
Vandevelde
O'Grady
Cancellara
Voight
Zabriskie

 

[Galic Ho]

Yeah.
Levi got a 20 second penalty for the car pulling all the way back to the rear of the peloton, at 80kph, just in time for the climb.
Evans and Mosquera got a 20 second penalty. One, have taking a lengthy hold on a water bottle and the other, taking a water bottle inside the final 10km, from a fan dressed in Galicia kit.

Go figure.

Have to agree. Basso would certainly have taken the Tour in 2006/7/8.
I'd say 2009 would have been a toss up.
Crucially, as Blackcat has been at pains to point out, CSC and the Schlecks would have been his domestique help, as would Sastre, until this year.

Did not know Levi, Cadel and Mosquera were given time penalties. I've never heard that before. Odd that I haven't, as it should have popped up earlier. Thanks guys.

Basso won the 2006 Giro and Vino the Vuelta. I don't know who would have won between them but add Jan to the picture and that was the podium. Would anyone have preferred this over Floyd and Perreiro? Looking back, I know I would have. Drugged or non drugged. Plus I like Perreiro so that is saying something.

Rominger, few here think Basso can win the Tour anymore. I like your bluffing idea. I doubt however that Ivan is selfless enough to give it a try, unless he has a solid guarantee that the team will work for him at the Giro or Vuelta. Regardless of this Liquigas will have a strong team at the Tour, but have no riders on contract who I believe can win the grand boucle. Italians should give a serious crack at the Giro with two riders and then take all four to the Tour. Pellizotti on his own at the Giro, have Basso and Pellizotti ride for the youngsters at the Tour and give Basso all the support they can muster for the Vuelta. Samu and Valverde have both recently hinted they may have a crack at the Tour, Samu indicated next year he will. He's better than all the Liquigas guys right now. Why not aim for the races with fewer GC riders?