Who will be the most helpful domestique at the 2015 TDF ?

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Who will be the most useful domestique at the 2015 TDF ?

  • Morabito (Pinot)

    Votes: 1 0.7%
  • Sagan (Contador)

    Votes: 22 15.8%
  • Porte (Froome)

    Votes: 15 10.8%
  • Thomas (Froome)

    Votes: 50 36.0%
  • Fuglsang (Nibali)

    Votes: 7 5.0%
  • Valverde (Quintana)

    Votes: 12 8.6%
  • Majka (Contador)

    Votes: 17 12.2%
  • Hesjedal (Martin/Talansky)

    Votes: 2 1.4%
  • Vuillermoz (Bardet/JCP)

    Votes: 1 0.7%
  • Other

    Votes: 12 8.6%

  • Total voters
    139
Re: Re:

SeriousSam said:
Flamin said:
Sagan was super strong today no doubt, but people here are being pretty opportunistic because they saw him closing a small gap on the cobbles and then take a super pull after the last pavé secteur. But why was Contador positioned badly on both occasions in the first place? That didn't happen to Froomey. Heck, Contador started the last secteur almost dead last.

I'd say Thomas was at least as impressive, constantly fighting to stay near the front and sheltering Froome from the wind for the last 45k.
The scope for domestiques to be of help is obviously greater when the leader needs it. Froome was well positioned throughout, Contador wasn't. Thomas might have been as useful, had Froome needed him to close gaps, but he didn't, so he wasn't.
Thomas was very useful because he constantly kept Froome near the front for 45k, but if that doesn't count, okay then.
 
Re: Re:

rm7 said:
Flamin said:
Mr.White said:
Bernie's eyesore said:
People must be watching a different race to me. Sagan cost Contador 4 seconds on stage 2 by going for the win rather than helping Contador. Not saying it wasn't right for him to go for the win but that hardly makes him a great domestique.
Definitely a different race! I for example saw that Sagan closed that gap in the crosswinds that could cost Contador minutes, and again today saw Sagan guiding Contador whole day across the pave, and again closing the most dangerous move with Froome, Nibali, TJVG and Valverde ahead. But then again, you saw that 4 seconds... :confused:
Don't make stuff up. Sagan was chilling in the middle/at the back of the pack for quite some time actually.
That was obvious team tactics, because Benatti and Kreuziger were at the front with Contador, so they kept one man behind him if he was dropping back. Benatti was also at the back sometimes. No need to have 3 guys around him on the pave.
Duh.. thanks for the fill-in I guess, but that's not what I'm discussing.
 
Re: Re:

Flamin said:
I'll have to watch it back because I didn't see it, but Sagan and Contador were sitting far back before that already.

So did Thomas yesterday then. And that gap was clearly bigger.
I don't think anyone is arguing Thomas didn't do a good job?! Some people just believe Sagan has been better so far.
 
Mar 13, 2015
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Re: Re:

Flamin said:
Mr.White said:
Bernie's eyesore said:
People must be watching a different race to me. Sagan cost Contador 4 seconds on stage 2 by going for the win rather than helping Contador. Not saying it wasn't right for him to go for the win but that hardly makes him a great domestique.
Definitely a different race! I for example saw that Sagan closed that gap in the crosswinds that could cost Contador minutes, and again today saw Sagan guiding Contador whole day across the pave, and again closing the most dangerous move with Froome, Nibali, TJVG and Valverde ahead. But then again, you saw that 4 seconds... :confused:
Don't make stuff up. Sagan was chilling in the middle/at the back of the pack for quite some time actually.
Watch again!
 
It is really hard to tell. Froome has been outstanding and positioned himself perfectly on each occasion so Thomas' job was much easier. Contador has real issues with positioning (lack of awareness or bike handling skills in peleton?) so Sagan had a lot of work to do and that's why he stands out.
Really dissapointed with Astana though. Nibali needs a teammate in a break and attack on descent. Not sure if any of the Vino's boys are strong enough to do that
 
Re:

Flamin said:
Sagan was super strong today no doubt, but people here are being pretty opportunistic because they saw him closing a small gap on the cobbles and then take a super pull after the last pavé secteur. But why was Contador positioned badly on both occasions in the first place? That didn't happen to Froomey. Heck, Contador started the last secteur almost dead last.

I'd say Thomas was at least as impressive, constantly fighting to stay near the front and sheltering Froome from the wind for the last 45k.
Yeah, overall Thomas was probably the strongest rider of the day along with Nibali. Pretty sure if he didn't have to look after Froome he could have won the stage comfortably, the amount of energy he spent throughout the seven sections being in first ten riders, dropping back, surging forward, and constantly looking for Froome.
 
Re: Re:

LaFlorecita said:
I don't think anyone is arguing Thomas didn't do a good job?! Some people just believe Sagan has been better so far.
And I'm expressing why I think Thomas did an equally good or even better job and why Sagan's is a tad overrated?

Mr.White said:
Watch again!
Sagan disappears after he closed a gap on secteur 5 (?) only to come back to the front at secteur 2.
 
Jul 16, 2011
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Re:

damian13ster said:
It is really hard to tell. Froome has been outstanding and positioned himself perfectly on each occasion so Thomas' job was much easier. Contador has real issues with positioning (lack of awareness or bike handling skills in peleton?) so Sagan had a lot of work to do and that's why he stands out.
Really dissapointed with Astana though. Nibali needs a teammate in a break and attack on descent. Not sure if any of the Vino's boys are strong enough to do that
But certainly Froome's team, in particular G at the pointy end of each stage, have helped keep Froome in a good position. It is hard to tell how hard or important that has been. G hasn't been flashy in what he's done, but he has always been at the right place at the right time. Sagan is obviously in great form and has really helped out Bertie at various points and in a more visible way.
 
I think honestly Contador didn't quite have the legs to stay in the first 10 in the position fights right before the pavees. On several occasions, Tinkoff Saxo was lined out on the front for Contador, who would then lose 10-15 positions and Sagan and Benatti had to drop back a bit to find Contador again.
 
There are clearly two schools of thought.

G has done well in so far as he has managed to keep Froome in a fairly decent position on most of the stage.

Sagan has been more prominent in that he has had to assist Contador when gaps have opened due to poor positioning. If Sagan's job was to get Contador in position in the first place then he's only making up for an error. If however that is someone else's job and he is trying to remedy that then Sagan has done a fantastic job.

As to who I would prefer if I was as a team leader- I would go for G simply because he is more of an all rounder and is not focused on winning something personally (unlike Sagan- this is not a criticism). Given his pursuiting background G will be invaluable for the TTT and he can do a job setting the pace on the earlier slopes in the high mountains.
 
Sagan edges it for now imo, simply because Froome has handled himself better than Contador so has required a bit less work to keep him relevant.

Would expect G to still be there in the mountains though while Sagan will fade away.

Could be interesting if Sagan survives a mountain to go on the attack on the descent with Bertie though at some point.
 
There are a lot of kinds of work:

Tactic domestique, attack and do other teams work and can do a bridge for his leader...defensive or attacking tactic....Valverde could do this paper, Fulgsang or kreuziger as well.

Control Domestique
, to work long distance at the begining of the stage... if you are the leader or you looks the stage, people as Tossato, stannard, a lot of people...

Babysitter
, as castroviejo for Quintana, very important work to have yourt leader in the front, protect him of risk, and protect from the wind. Very important work.

Critical domestique, as Sagan yesterday, if there is a cut some quality riders can solve that problem. it can be in the plain ot in the mountains, if you have a crisis, people as Valverde, Porte, Fulgsang,... can help in the mountains to minimize distance.. sometimes is the work that cycling fans see more and more apreciate, becouse that domestique need the level of a top contender to be there some days...sometimes is a domestique of other team, as Nieve with Contador 2 years ago.

Sprint domestique, to put the sprinter in a good position.

Built up domestique... work at the begining of the last climb to prepare the attack of his leader...Majka, Porte...tha last one in this work is as well remembered as a quiality rider...

Car domestiques, those who go to the car to take bottles and other kind of things.

Director-quide or the race:the domestique that is say the others what to do, warn for dangerous moments, try to interpretate the race... sometimes is a leader as Contador who do that but Basso did that paper in the Giro according to Alberto. it must be an experience rider.

These are the main kind of domestique and their versions...

Sometime a rider can do some of them... but all of them are very important.

I would say that considering all of them along the Tour Thomas could be the best domestique, but not sure. Kreuziger as well.

Sagan wont be in critical moments in the mountains, and Valverde is not a babysitter, although could be very important.
 
Re: Who will be the most helpful domestique at the 2015 TDF

At the moment i go with G..I'm curious if he'll be there in the mountain stages too.But got to say Sagan has changed.Not only that he's in great shape but he takes care of Contador everywhere plus he's trying to win stages,impressive stuff.
 

Singer01

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Nov 18, 2013
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Re:

Jan the Man said:
As to who I would prefer if I was as a team leader- I would go for G simply because he is more of an all rounder and is not focused on winning something personally (unlike Sagan- this is not a criticism). Given his pursuiting background G will be invaluable for the TTT and he can do a job setting the pace on the earlier slopes in the high mountains.
the way he rode at TDS on that killer MTF i'd say he may be doing a job later than the earlier slopes.
 
Re:

Eclipse said:
Sagan edges it for now imo, simply because Froome has handled himself better than Contador so has required a bit less work to keep him relevant.

Would expect G to still be there in the mountains though while Sagan will fade away.

Could be interesting if Sagan survives a mountain to go on the attack on the descent with Bertie though at some point.
Sagan and Nibali tried this at the TDF 2012. I believe Sagan attacked early on the pretext of extending his green jersey lead, but then tried to link up with Nibali on a descent. It didn't come to anything because Sky were too numerous I think, but they tried.
 
Jun 30, 2014
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Sagan an Geraint are awesome, but I think that every gc-contender would love to have a monster like Bennati in his team, the guy is insanely strong and the perfect guy to protect you on flat stages, he's just awesome.
 
Re:

Jagartrott said:
I would say Sieberg (who?) is one of the most underestimated riders in the peloton. Yet he does his job perfectly, and has done so again this Tour for Greipel.
Atleast he's in top position amongst the leadout men I would say.
 
Jul 29, 2012
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TMP402 said:
Did Sagan position Contador on the Huy?

So far Thomas helped Froome crucially on stages 2, 3 and 4, but Sagan for Contador I can only think of 2 and 4....
Did Thomas close 3 crucial gaps? Nope. Sagan did.
 
Re:

Mayomaniac said:
Sagan an Geraint are awesome, but I think that every gc-contender would love to have a monster like Bennati in his team, the guy is insanely strong and the perfect guy to protect you on flat stages, he's just awesome.
Rogers and Bennati have been excellent so far. It's no coincidence that these two rarely get caught out in echelons, crashes, splits etc. Superb readers of a race.

Thinking back, the last few times a TDF stage has broken up into echelons that stayed away (09, 12, this year) Rogers has been one of the main protagonists. Coincidence?
 
The question is not well posed. You also have domestiques in other area's. Tosatto, Quinziato, Castroviejo etc who are doing a tremendous job everytime in the hectic stages on the flat. Then you have the lead out men for the sprints, the likes of Sieberg, Renshaw, De Kort etc..
 
Re:

TMP402 said:
Did Sagan position Contador on the Huy?

So far Thomas helped Froome crucially on stages 2, 3 and 4, but Sagan for Contador I can only think of 2 and 4....
The question is not only in how many stages he helped, it is also about how important the help was. Froome had been quite well on all these stages with or without Thomas while Contador probably would have lost minutes without sagan.
 
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