Who's made the most out of limited talent?

[issoisso]

Didn't Armstrong earn the nickname 'cortisone neck' from his tri days?

Not sure if it was from his tri days, but early on he did have that nickname in the peloton.

 

[Le breton]

All of that is irrelevant. This is about talent, and he had loads of it.

Just as impressive as his Mt Ventoux climb was his performance in the last TT of his 1987 TdF, just look at the results of that stage, I remember being absolutely stunned at the time.

Dijon-Dijon 38 km TT

1. Jean-François Bernard 48'17"
2. Roche à 1'44"
3. Lejarreta à 2'28"
4. Skibby à 2'30"
5. Alcala à 2'33"
6. Indurain à 2'35"
7. Delgado à 2'45"
8. Mottet à 2'51"
9. Stevenhaagen à 2'55"
10. Breukink à 2'58"

 

[mastersracer]

Yeah, Zulle and Ullrich backed off after Festina. Kevin Livingston actually talked about Ullrich racing with an Hct in the low 40's when he went to Telekom.

Armstrong was a good classics rider and a mediocre GT rider, who couldn't climb or TT, just the way Phil Anderson called it.

Ullrich visited Fuentes between 5-6 times a year between 2004 and 2006 and paid him 80,000 Euros. That doesn't sound like 'backing off' to me. The protocols, drugs, etc were are well-known. It's doubtful there was much variance in programs...

 

[mastersracer]

All of that is irrelevant. This is about talent, and he had loads of it.

had he not been hyped as Hinault's successor he would have had a mostly anonymous career, which is why I said he made the most out of whatever talent he had. A truly talented French rider of the same generation (2 years older) was Fignon. Fignon - like other genuinely talented riders of that era - revealed their talent in significant victories early in their career, like Fignon's Tour victory in his second year as a pro. There's not a significant win on Bernard's palmares - in his second year as a pro he managed 56th in the Tour de Suisse.

In American football terms, Bernard was the Matt Leinart of his day. Lots of hype, a first round pick, and then a dud as a pro. Bernard turned out to be a water bottle carrier. Leinart carries a clipboard.

 

[issoisso]

There's not a significant win on Bernard's palmares - in his second year as a pro he managed 56th in the Tour de Suisse.

What Bernard are you talking about?

I'm talking about Jean-François Bernard, the guy who dominated the Tour de France the first time he got to lead a team, and despite carrying two crippling injuries for the rest of his career still won major races like Paris-Nice and stages of all 3 GTs.

Whatever guy you're talking about who had no talent, no significant wins and no was a water carrier, was not the same guy I'm discussing.

 

[mastersracer]

What Bernard are you talking about?

I'm talking about Jean-François Bernard, the guy who dominated the Tour de France the first time he got to lead a team, and despite carrying two crippling injuries for the rest of his career still won major races like Paris-Nice and stages of all 3 GTs.

Whatever guy you're talking about who had no talent, no significant wins and no was a water carrier, was not the same guy I'm discussing.

he was hyped to win grand tours, not pick up a stage win here and there while finishing 59th (his Vuelta placing). As far as 'dominating' the Tour in 87, it's hard to dominate without winning - even in a weakened field with an off form Fignon and Lemond not racing. As far as winning Paris-Nice late in his career, that puts him in the same company as Bobby Julich - not exactly Hinault's successor...

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Tony Rominger is up there too of course

Nah.

Giro dell'Emilia (1988)
Giro di Lombardia (1989)
Tirreno–Adriatico (1989)
Tour de Romandie (1991)
Paris–Nice (1991)

He also had several excellent results in GT TT's and mountain stages in the late 80's.

He's a great talent compared to some of the other thoroughbreds of the 90's.

 

[issoisso]

he was hyped to win grand tours, not pick up a stage win here and there while finishing 59th (his Vuelta placing). As far as 'dominating' the Tour in 87, it's hard to dominate without winning - even in a weakened field with an off form Fignon and Lemond not racing. As far as winning Paris-Nice late in his career, that puts him in the same company as Bobby Julich - not exactly Hinault's successor...

Fine, if you want to pretend to not understand what the topic is about, pretend away

Nah.

Giro dell'Emilia (1988)
Giro di Lombardia (1989)
Tirreno–Adriatico (1989)
Tour de Romandie (1991)
Paris–Nice (1991)

He also had several excellent results in GT TT's and mountain stages in the late 80's.

He's a great talent compared to some of the other thoroughbreds of the 90's.

Also a second Tirreno in 1990, being 5 seconds from the pink jersey after 16 stages as a second year pro, etc. etc.

 

[mastersracer]

Fine, if you want to pretend to not understand what the topic is about, pretend away

the topic wasn't about who had talent. It was about who did well despite limited talent - who exceeded their talent level. You can do so the way Dirk de Mol did by being an average rider who pulled off a big upset win the way he did at P-R, or you can be someone who gained fame and was hyped but never lived up to those expectations - because they did not have the talent people supposed. Jeff B. was the latter sort.

 

[LarryBudMelman]

Ullrich visited Fuentes between 5-6 times a year between 2004 and 2006 and paid him 80,000 Euros. That doesn't sound like 'backing off' to me. The protocols, drugs, etc were are well-known. It's doubtful there was much variance in programs...

Ullrich evidently has some psychological issues.

He backed off during his "ecstasy" years with Telekom according to Kevin Livingston.

Alcoholics relapse, dopers scale back for a time, it happens.

 

[Galic Ho]

Surely Bjarne Riis is a leading contender even if we know it was mainly due to EPO. An ok amateur who spent the first few years of his career scraping around on Belgian kermesse squads before almost being left contractless to finishing miles down in Grand Tour's to then actually winning the Tour de France in his 30s.

Great nomination. Actually a better one than Lance. Mr 60%! He is a very smart tactician though. That certainly helped. Still aids his business well today by using his noggin.

Was it 89 he came in behind Walsh or was it 90? Walsh was 80 something on GC in the Tour, Bjarne was in the low 90 range if my memory serves me well. Walsh mentioned it a while back to highlight why he got out of competing when the 90s hit. His fellow competition used the new times to improve themselves to levels they couldn't climb clean. Money does wonderful things to one's personal moral code.

 

[Galic Ho]

How about Cobo then?

No argument from me. But he isn't in the league of other cyclists. Recently Cobo has gone from ice cold to scorchingly hot. I still remember some of the talk I heard about Saunier Duval and Cobo from the 2008 Tour. Dirtier than Ricco and Piepoli is all I ever assume regarding him. That says enough.

I only mentioned Froome and Wigans because of the sudden 2011 turn around after choking in 2010. Funny thing is, Cobo better illustrates that than either of those two could and he outshone two team mates with stellar palmares in GT's these past 6 years. Whatever he's on it's good.

 

[BigBoat]

thread wasn't about who benefited most from doping, which should go to Rominger for his hour record averaging 7.2 watts/kg. .

Theres no way he averaged 7.2 w/kg for 60 mins!!!!! His all out 5 min power might of been 7.2 w/kg at the time of the record. He probably averaged 413 watts or so (the power he needed to ride at 53 km/hr according to Ferrari).

http://www.53x12.com/do/show?page=article&id=31

His undoped FTP was probably no better than 350 watts......seriously. At a normal weight of 70 kg thats about 5 w/kg undoped and 5.9 doped.

Its mostly about aerodynamics when TT bikes are allowed. Also centrifical forces are a big deal going around the steeply banked turns. Indurain was at a real disadvantage in that record despite his huge total power of 510+ watts.

V02 max for both men during the records must have been 94+ using Antoine Vayer's reasoning of 5 kcal/L at 23% efficiency.

 

[pmcg76]

Great nomination. Actually a better one than Lance. Mr 60%! He is a very smart tactician though. That certainly helped. Still aids his business well today by using his noggin.

Was it 89 he came in behind Walsh or was it 90? Walsh was 80 something on GC in the Tour, Bjarne was in the low 90 range if my memory serves me well. Walsh mentioned it a while back to highlight why he got out of competing when the 90s hit. His fellow competition used the new times to improve themselves to levels they couldn't climb clean. Money does wonderful things to one's personal moral code.

When you say Walsh, I think you mean Kimmage. Well they finished close on GC in the 89 Giro, Kimmage 86th-Riis 88th even though Riis did manage to win a stage. Riis then finished 95th in the Tour whilst Kimmage packed it in during the Tour and finished his career. 25 years of age and these were the results he was putting out and he somehow won the Tour in 96.

 

[peterst6906]

Almost forgot this thread is still open. Only 2 threads really active today.

Anyway, I'm going outside the box here and outside cycling all together.

My pick is Schwarzenegger.

On the back of PEDs he's excelled at sport, entertainment, business and politics.

Also won Mr Olympia 7 times (just saying).

Anyway, I have a lot of admiration for Arnold, who first planned his life when he was only 10 y/o. To be that focused and achieve so much. Nothing but kudos.

 

[mastersracer]

Theres no way he averaged 7.2 w/kg for 60 mins!!!!! His all out 5 min power might of been 7.2 w/kg at the time of the record. He probably averaged 413 watts or so (the power he needed to ride at 53 km/hr according to Ferrari).

http://www.53x12.com/do/show?page=article&id=31

His undoped FTP was probably no better than 350 watts......seriously. At a normal weight of 70 kg thats about 5 w/kg undoped and 5.9 doped.

Its mostly about aerodynamics when TT bikes are allowed. Also centrifical forces are a big deal going around the steeply banked turns. Indurain was at a real disadvantage in that record despite his huge total power of 510+ watts.

V02 max for both men during the records must have been 94+ using Antoine Vayer's reasoning of 5 kcal/L at 23% efficiency.

I based that on the numbers published below.
http://bikecult.com/bikecultbook/sports_recordsHour.html

 

[Galic Ho]

When you say Walsh, I think you mean Kimmage. Well they finished close on GC in the 89 Giro, Kimmage 86th-Riis 88th even though Riis did manage to win a stage. Riis then finished 95th in the Tour whilst Kimmage packed it in during the Tour and finished his career. 25 years of age and these were the results he was putting out and he somehow won the Tour in 96.

Dammit. I thought it was Kimmage. Did a little check and changed it. Should have kept the name I originally had. Been a long time since I read his interview and couldn't remember which of the two it was. Thanks for the correction.

 

[Le breton]

Theres no way he averaged 7.2 w/kg for 60 mins!!!!! His all out 5 min power might of been 7.2 w/kg at the time of the record. He probably averaged 413 watts or so (the power he needed to ride at 53 km/hr according to Ferrari).

http://www.53x12.com/do/show?page=article&id=31

His undoped FTP was probably no better than 350 watts......seriously. At a normal weight of 70 kg thats about 5 w/kg undoped and 5.9 doped.

Its mostly about aerodynamics when TT bikes are allowed. Also centrifical forces are a big deal going around the steeply banked turns. Indurain was at a real disadvantage in that record despite his huge total power of 510+ watts.

V02 max for both men during the records must have been 94+ using Antoine Vayer's reasoning of 5 kcal/L at 23% efficiency.

Maybe you should think a bit first :

If, Rominger needed 413 watts to ride at 53.040 km/h, he obviously needed considerably more to do 55.291 km/h. Considering that most of the power used is aerodynamic, the exponent is close to 3.

55.291/53.04 = 1.042.
to gain 4.2% in speed you need to exert a bit less than 13.3% extra power.

Let's take an exponent of 2.85 to allow for rolling resistance (proportional to velocity and representing a few % of the energy expenditure.

1.042 ** 2.85 = 1.124.

413 times 1.124 = 464 watts.

If Rominger weighed 65 kg , he exerted 7.14 watts/kg

If he was 64 kg he exerted 464 / 64 = 7.25 watts/kg.

So I don't understand what you are disputing.

Now, you can ask what is the likely VO2max of a cyclist able to maintaine 7.2 watts /kg for 1 hr. My guess is : no less than 100 ml/mn.kg., ie a good 10% above what Boardman produced at 56.375 km/h. (Boardman produced 6.5 watts/kg that day)

 

[BigBoat]

Maybe you should think a bit first :

If, Rominger needed 413 watts to ride at 53.040 km/h, he obviously needed considerably more to do 55.291 km/h. Considering that most of the power used is aerodynamic, the exponent is close to 3.

55.291/53.04 = 1.042.
to gain 4.2% in speed you need to exert a bit less than 13.3% extra power.

Let's take an exponent of 2.85 to allow for rolling resistance (proportional to velocity and representing a few % of the energy expenditure.

1.042 ** 2.85 = 1.124.

413 times 1.124 = 464 watts.


Now, you can ask what is the likely VO2max of a cyclist able to maintaine 7.2 watts /kg for 1 hr. My guess is : no less than 100 ml/mn.kg., ie a good 10% above what Boardman produced at 56.375 km/h. (Boardman produced 6.5 watts/kg that day)

Oh yeah, good point. I skimmed the article, didn't realize he rode 55 km, not 53. That's even more messed up.

I think 460 watts is still a little on the high side though.....Either that or he weighed more than 65 kg. Coggan/ Hunter Allen think the world record for FTP is around 6.3-6.4 w/kg. Allen estimated Contador to be around this region during the 2011 TDF based on Sorenson's SRM power files.

I see one German site that has Rominger at 74 kg.

So anyways, 460 watts average at 74 kg.....6.2 watts per kilo. I think he probably averaged 445 though. My experience hammering with my SRM is that another 2 km/hr isn't worth 50 watts. And anyways, the best he could do on his old bike was 53.8 km/hr (about 435 watts or so). I think they changed bikes during the week before his attempt.

Its just hard to believe that he did 7.2 w/kg. Thats unbelievable! Cant be right. Boardman reported his power at 420 watts, 69 kg. 6.1 w/kg. That was the 56 km run in the "superman".

BTW, the power numbers I'm talking about, ie (6 w/kg for an hour) are absolutely alien numbers. If you use a power meter & race at a highish level you see quickly that even 5 w/kg at FTP is damn impressive.

You can get top 10s in NRC races with around 4.9 or so with a decent sprint. You can start winning pro stage races on 5.2 w/kg at FTP. You wont win the Tour of California with that, but you can certainly win some stuff!!

 

[Cannavaro]

65 kg is a good approximation. 75 kg is far to heavy (only make sense if you include the bike). He only was 1.75 tall. 7.2 watt/kg seems to be realistic. There was calculated 450 watt http://www.members.aon.at/o.n/bergfahrer.html on the Madone. This climb is 13 km long. So its around 35 minutes. 450/65=6.9 watt/kg.

 

[La Vie Claire]

Late to this thread so my apologies if this has already been discussed. My pick: Armstrong. Transformed himself from an excellent classics rider to the premier TdF winner through perseverance and laser-like focus.

 

[BigBoat]

65 kg is a good approximation. 75 kg is far to heavy (only make sense if you include the bike). He only was 1.75 tall. 7.2 watt/kg seems to be realistic. There was calculated 450 watt http://www.members.aon.at/o.n/bergfahrer.html on the Madone. This climb is 13 km long. So its around 35 minutes. 450/65=6.9 watt/kg.

Hmmm.... You can hold about 104% of FTP for 35 minutes...

Lance had the record up Madone doesn't he? If he could average 6.7 w/kg in a rested state for the FULL 30 minutes then I guess you could make the argument that MAYBE Lance's FTP was over 6.4 w/kg. Dont think Rominger could take lance on so Rominger's FTP had to have been slightly less than Lance's.

Now....Lance did it in 30:45, Tom D did it in 30:20 or so. Lance is known to have averaged 495 watts (74 kg.) You have to subtract 4% from that figure to get his FTP at the time, so his FTP was pushing 475. So thats a Legitimate 6.4 w/kg I guess which is what Coggan/Allen/Lim, etc believe the world record to be.

7.2 aint gonna happen, something went wrong somewhere when that was calculated. Thats not possible, not yet anyways. Maybe with a genetically engineered human it will be doable some day. Thats science fiction though.

 

[Le breton]

I see one German site that has Rominger at 74 kg.

.....
My experience hammering with my SRM is that another 2 km/hr isn't worth 50 watts. And anyways, the best he could do on his old bike was 53.8 km/hr (about 435 watts or so). I think they changed bikes during the week before his attempt.

Its just hard to believe that he did 7.2 w/kg. Thats unbelievable! Cant be right. Boardman reported his power at 420 watts, 69 kg. 6.1 w/kg. That was the 56 km run in the "superman".

My experience hammering with my SRM is that another 2 km/hr isn't worth 50 watts.
This is silly. When is the last time you cycled at 54 km/h. Reasoning on absolute values rather than relative values (%ages) obviously will lead you astray.

Cant be right. Boardman reported his power at 420 watts, 69 kg. 6.1 w/kg. That was the 56 km run in the "superman".

Why do you propagate false information?
The power output of Boardman during his superman hour is well documented, even in a refereed scientific paper.
Peter Keen gave his power at 442 watts. His weight was said to be 68 kg, no reason to doubt that. 448/68 = 6.5 watts/kg

74 kg for Rominger, cheez, why not 174 kg?

Finally you are using Coggan's figures in ways he never intended.

 

[BigBoat]

Peter Keen gave his power at 442 watts. His weight was said to be 68 kg, no reason to doubt that. 448/68 = 6.5 watts/kg

74 kg for Rominger, cheez, why not 174 kg?

Finally you are using Coggan's figures in ways he never intended.

Look breton, I take that with a grain of salt. I see power listing of Boardman at 400w for his 2000 hour record, which seems more realistic for a 68-69 kg man, The 442 does not seem right..... I cant believe that. I can wonder if anybody ever got to 7.2 at their FTP, similar to how I wonder if there isn't something behind the big foot myth.

Its stuff of legend I guess.

Cheers, not trying to get into a huge fight over power estimates.

 

[SiAp1984]

Benjamin Noval. Countless tour participations, but never seen at the front of the field during TV coverage, no wins, no top-placings, no breakaway attempts, no good time trialist, no good climber, no good sprinter, but

constantly there

and

finishing. Even participating in several tour wins. Quite impressive for a guy with no visible talents.