Why Alberto Contador is Cycling's One True Champion

[HelmutRoole]

Re: Re:

He's a fraud. End of.

He won 3 GTs by the time he was the same age as Froome when he got 2nd at La Vuelta. He had much better U23 results too.

There's astonishing natural talent there but I wouldn't go as far as the OP though, it was a case of right person, right time. Always believed that the clen positive was pay back for 2009. McQuaid almost certainly asked for "extra special scrutiny"

Definitely. Pretty obvious, isn't it? Pretty hard to see how any long term fan of cycling could not see that, if they can see anything at all. And yet it appears you and I are in a minority. Maybe there just aren't that many long term fans of cycling left.

Yes. It happened to Kittel last year. Unauthorized doping? Take a podium break... for a year. It's an identifiable pattern that appears to some as a conspiracy theory right up to the point when it's revealed.

Like?

Like motorized doping.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re: Re:

Contador is a true cycling champion and our only hope against Sky.

A former rider of Saiz, Bruyneel and Riis is our hope against Sky?

The guy has huge talent, that's for sure, but to give him that attribute is a leap too far.

It's not about clean vs doped. Clearly he is doped just like Team Sky, although I doubt he enjoys as much protection as they do. But he is the only rider capable of taking them down. In my opinion. He is clearly prepared to go to great lengths this year (I don't believe for a second he got this anorexic just by dieting and exercise). And that is necessary to beat Sky and in particular Froome. Other more knowledgable posters can probably suggest what sort of cocktail he is on but it is likely the same as the Sky riders. As I said, I am just praying he doesn't get popped (not unlikely) and doesn't die. Then he can go and have a way healthier life and I can go and not give a **** about this sport anymore

So you're finally admitting he doped too, and yet you still worship at the altar and call him "the one true cycling champion", yet he doped to get that title?

Lol! I'm laughing out loud hysterically at your wonky reasoning/thinking, but good on you for being consistent.

 

[HelmutRoole]

Re: Re:

Contador is a true cycling champion and our only hope against Sky.

A former rider of Saiz, Bruyneel and Riis is our hope against Sky?

The guy has huge talent, that's for sure, but to give him that attribute is a leap too far.

It's not about clean vs doped. Clearly he is doped just like Team Sky, although I doubt he enjoys as much protection as they do. But he is the only rider capable of taking them down. In my opinion. He is clearly prepared to go to great lengths this year (I don't believe for a second he got this anorexic just by dieting and exercise). And that is necessary to beat Sky and in particular Froome. Other more knowledgable posters can probably suggest what sort of cocktail he is on but it is likely the same as the Sky riders. As I said, I am just praying he doesn't get popped (not unlikely) and doesn't die. Then he can go and have a way healthier life and I can go and not give a **** about this sport anymore

So you're finally admitting he doped too, and yet you still worship at the altar and call him "the one true cycling champion", yet he doped to get that title?

Lol! I'm laughing out loud hysterically at your wonky reasoning/thinking, but good on you for being consistent.

And you worship the one true champion in a corrupt sport of cheaters? How neive can you be? If they're pro cyclists, they cheat.

Big deal.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

So you're finally admitting he doped too, and yet you still worship at the altar and call him "the one true cycling champion", yet he doped to get that title?

Lol! I'm laughing out loud hysterically at your wonky reasoning/thinking, but good on you for being consistent.

Getting tired of your bullcrap. Go single out someone else.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

He's an old desperate doper who'll do anything to win.
When he's good he has just taken a bag. When he's bad he has just had a bag taken out.
When he's skinny he has taken Aicar. When he's not skinny he's winding down.

Seems like a more polite version of Armstrong to me. Although he is a classy rider it must be said.
To be fair to Armstrong he was great fun in his day too (if we're looking at the whole thing as a soap opera of course, which we seem to be). Contador, as is his right, does his talking on the bike. He's a bit vanilla in personality though.

You are right, in 2013 he had blood taken out every day of the year which is why he was a bit below his usual best. Turns out it was all preparation for 2014 because as you can see he had bags infused every day, how else can we explain him being so strong all year round. Then in 2015 he was bad again so I guess you and your friends should fear him.

He's probably my favourite realistic GT contender as it happens.

Okay, that is good to read. In that case I apologize.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

I'll call him just what I did in the other Contador thread you got so butt hurt about:

Contadoper! Contadoper!

No matter how "true/great" you think your "champion" is: he's a known doper!

I don't support dopers, sorry.

I support a magnificent cyclist and person who happens to be a doper. Sorry.

 

[wrinklyvet]

Re: Re:

I'll call him just what I did in the other Contador thread you got so butt hurt about:

Contadoper! Contadoper!

No matter how "true/great" you think your "champion" is: he's a known doper!

I don't support dopers, sorry.

I support a magnificent cyclist and person who happens to be a doper. Sorry.

I hope you have other interests. What will your life be like when he retires? Long term, you would be safer supporting the Rolling Stones. They have a long career ahead of them!

 

[Night Rider]

Re: Re:

Contador is a true cycling champion and our only hope against Sky. He has nothing to lose, he'll either beat them this year or get popped. Either way it's the end of his career. He is already looking very skinny so it's looking good so far, I just hope he won't drop dead thanks to the Official Team Sky Cocktail.

I'll call him just what I did in the other Contador thread you got so butt hurt about:

Contadoper! Contadoper!

No matter how "true/great" you think your "champion" is: he's a known doper!

I don't support dopers, sorry.

They are all known dopers, well the riders with a chance of winning anyway. Your mate Greg was the last of the cleans ones.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

They are all known dopers, well the riders with a chance of winning anyway. Your mate Greg was the last of the cleans ones.

mebbe, mebbe not, depends how you define "clean"

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

I hope you have other interests. What will your life be like when he retires? Long term, you would be safer supporting the Rolling Stones. They have a long career ahead of them!

I wouldn't worry about me, I have lots of other favorite cyclists and most are very young. As for the Rolling Stones.... err..

 

[King Boonen]

This was awesome. Thanks.

 

[Maxiton]

Re:

This was awesome. Thanks.

Thank you, King Boonen. I appreciate it.

This thread is obviously an insult to the thousands and thousands of cyclists that are practicing the sport in an honest way. But what else could I expect from the CN Clinic. I just wish the OP did not post this utter crap with Ferdi as avatar. Enough insulting the true greats...

For the moment I consider Wout Van Aert as cycling's true hero because he's our only chance against Mathieu Van der Poel, if I'm not considering Mathieu Van der Poel a true hero for being our only chance against Wout Van Aert but even Julien Taramarcaz is a cycling champion for not having any chance against the former two, like thousands of other riders, okay. Even Tanguy Turgis is hero despite the fact that he's unknown to anybody here except the readers of the Guess Who Game.

But since this thread is made in the name of the not late Trotskyist warmongerer Hitchens, I guess it all falls into place. Those people hate Islam for a good reason. Islam condemns any form of idolatry, including the sporting idolatry. A true Muslim could not iconize Mr Contador because he's not a deity, he's just a human being with his flaws, like anyone else.

I do hope that in July Sky keeps on winning. Not that I like them, of course. The most detestable race in the calendar being won by the most hated team on earth can only be beneficial for cycling and in particular for the classics and cyclocross. That's why I've always wished Chris Horner someday wins it but at least he won the Tour of Spain, I can contend with that. The race is totally discredited by now. I know it's nihilistic, but it's your fault for insulting the classics by implying that classic riders and cyclocross riders cannot be true champions. If you don't want to see Sky dominate, all you gotta do is stop watching Bore de France and rather focus on the classics but you'll never do that. I never watch Bore de France, so I don't get to see Sky winning that often. And at least I can't be accused of contributing to their success because YOU - TV viewers - are making them so successful by watching them race, okay? So desist now! Stop whining.

After all, Sky riders have never been exposed to (blood) doping. Contador showed plastic residues in his urine that might indicate the use of blood bags. But even if you don't consider it a proof of blood doping, even if Contador is racing clean, that's not a reason for insulting thousands of riders by only iconizing one guy, okay? And since, most of you don't even believe he's racing clean, well then it's your choice for apologizing doping. Your problem, I mean. Sky's supposed doping is not an excuse. Lesser evil Policy is never an excuse. And natural born talent is NEVER an excuse, either. On the contrary, it's an aggravating factor. If you don't have talent but you still need to perform, I can figure out without justifying that you dope. If you have talent and you still (blood) dope, you are just a miserable person because you have no excuse. You could have performed with your talent alone but you still chose substances. No mercy for this kind of riders.

Edit: @LaFlo, this post of mine is not addressed at you. Don't feel targeted.

Echoes, I wanted to come back to your reply because I've been reading through your excellent Cycling & Pop Culture thread posted elsewhere, and it made me realize I did your reply an injustice. Here are some images from your thread.

I hope you don't mind my pointing out your thread or quoting these images here. I do so because they remind me of the beauty of cycling and its culture, and particularly of cyclesport: the simplicity and essential honesty of a person on a bike in competition with other riders.

I'm aware that thousands of people, as you say, compete honestly. I'm also aware that doping, and cheating in general, is an affront to them and to the honesty of the sport. That's the whole problem.

I notice in your thread you don't mention Vittorio De Sica's film, Ladri di biciclette (Bicycle Thieves).

Unlike the Communion of Saints and the forgiveness of sins, honesty in cyclesport cannot be an article of faith. To make it so is to turn a blind eye to corruption, and thus allow corruption to flourish. When corruption is ignored in a community, such as that of the GC controlled by the UCI, everyone within that community is, ultimately, compromised. This is the lesson of the De Sica film.

Under tyranny, the compromised spirit can be forged into that of a champion and assert itself in defiance, as Contador showed. Which makes it all the more important to point out the tyranny and corruption and compromise from which the champion spirit arose. In so doing we make some progress towards honesty in professional sport, and derive some inspiration for our own struggles.

 

[carton]

Re: Re:

Under tyranny, the compromised spirit can be forged into that of a champion and assert itself in defiance, as Contador showed. Which makes it all the more important to point out the tyranny and corruption and compromise from which the champion spirit arose. In so doing we make some progress towards honesty in professional sport, and derive some inspiration for our own struggles.

You are way overselling this. Contrary to popular belief, watching the gladiators "defy" their masters never brought about any real change, it just distracted the eager spectators from the real challenges of their time.

Even if you were to assume that it is somehow actually meaningful, if there is no moral arc to your story your anti-hero serves no purpose, even as a ploy. The stories of how Stalin defeated Trotsky, how Escobar took down the Cali Cartel or how the Barbarians ran over a corrupt Rome and only to bring about the dark ages hardly seem like beacons of hope or harbingers of progress. Freedom to dope without pretending to give more than two steaks about while promoting the brand of a man that is prone to borderline racist and sexist outbursts is not a platform I can get behind. But again,YMMV.

 

[Maxiton]

Re: Re:

Under tyranny, the compromised spirit can be forged into that of a champion and assert itself in defiance, as Contador showed. Which makes it all the more important to point out the tyranny and corruption and compromise from which the champion spirit arose. In so doing we make some progress towards honesty in professional sport, and derive some inspiration for our own struggles.

You are way overselling this. Contrary to popular belief, watching the gladiators "defy" their masters never brought about any real change, it just distracted the eager spectators from the real challenges of their time.

Even if you were to assume that it is somehow actually meaningful, if there is no moral arc to your story your anti-hero serves no purpose, even as a ploy. The stories of how Stalin defeated Trotsky, how Escobar took down the Cali Cartel or how the Barbarians ran over a corrupt Rome and only to bring about the dark ages hardly seem like beacons of hope or harbingers of progress. Freedom to dope without pretending to give more than two steaks about it is not a platform I can get behind. But again,YMMV.

You are conflating dissimilar phenomena, and inverting others, thus creating false analogies in hope of making a point. And besides that you are missing the parable entirely.

The gladiators could not defy their masters inside the arena. It wasn't set up that way. If any of them tried he was likely put to death immediately. Stalin was never a hero (or anti-hero) who defied a tyranny led by Trotsky - I doubt anyone has ever tried to make that assertion - not even Stalin. My knowledge of Pablo Escobar and the Cali Cartel is scant to say the least, but from what I know he headed a criminal organization which eventually triumphed against a competing organization - hardly analogous to a GC rider and the UCI. And your barbarians / corrupt Rome analogy only works if the UCI represents civilization versus the barbarian Contador. Verbruggen would have us believe that, no doubt, but I'm not buying.

Doping is incidental to this story except insofar as it is used as a cudgel to control everyone and compromise their spirit. Contador met with success in this system by keeping his head down and following orders. When this led eventually to his becoming patron, he considered that an honor to be worthy of. The only way he could defend that honor, however, and his own, was to break with his previous practice and do what no one else had done, or even been in position to do: defy them as champion. A lesser compromised character might have knuckled under for fear of his future. Certainly that's what they'd all been doing up until that moment.

 

[carton]

Re: Re:

You are conflating dissimilar phenomena.

I'm not trying to draw any sweeping conclusions. I'm making an exceedingly simple point: if the new guy is just as bad or worse than the old guys then your "revolution" is beyond worthless.

I doubt anyone has ever tried to make that assertion - not even Stalin.

You're clearly unfamiliar with the sheer girth of ol' Joe's brass ones. And humanity's unending hunger for fantasy. To contemporary soviets (and many western socialists, mind you) Trotsky was a "Right", hell-bent on restoring an oligarchic capitalist tyranny.

Do what no one else had done, or even been in position to do: defy them as champion.

Have you heard of Pantani, Virenque, or Vinokourov? Bettini, Zoetemelk or Merckx? Plenty of "champions", their "spirits" hardly compromised, "defied" the authorities on doping. I doubt the sport is any better for it.

Come think about it, if a penchant for rebelling against the authorities is what makes a rider a hero, isn't good gold-bike Alex a much better candidate than el no-longer-pistolero?

 

[Rob27172]

I am sorry but the whole analogy of one man against the corrupt upper echelons is about as far from the truth as it is possible to imagine.
How can contador? a racer who has long been within the sport itself and has played by and adhered to the rules, both those rules of an external and those of an internal nature, be anything other than another cog in the wheel?
How can a man who rode for the now completely disgraced ONCE squad who were probably one of the best systemic dopers of the early 2000's be anything other than one of the protected ones that you were alluding to originally.
He was then tarnished with operation puerto, and only saved from further embarrasment by the spanish establishment who stood out and told the world he and other spanish riders were innocent - therby ruining an ongoing investigation and basically ensuring there would never be any trials or prosecutions.
Then when he was finally busted at the behest of the cycling establishment (if we believe your version) was then exonerated by the spanish prime minister no less.
If ever there was an establishment protected rider it is the chosen one Alberto the doper.
The fact that the UCI then found a new golden child in the Team Sky story and their chosen riders to take on the mantle of the new miracle generation is the only reason that AC has not won more races.
He knows that as he stayed with firstly Astana and then Mr 60% and Saxo bank (later tinkoff) and as SKY was the new golden child and ASTANA became the naughty child in the classroom, thanks mainly to vinokourov and his refusal to show any remorse whatsoever for his years of blatant doping abuses and then Tinkoff and Riis fell out with UCI ove Bjarne and his issues and Tinkoff and his outspoken views. That is what killed the Alberto shinning star.
If he had signed for Sky he would have won the last 3 tours and who knows how many other GT's

Alberto is no hero , He is no true champion, he is a bike rider in the midst of an entertainment industry that lost any semblance to sport a long long time ago.

Any other view is yours and you are entitled to it but I am afraid it is naive at best.

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re:

I am sorry but the whole analogy of one man against the corrupt upper echelons is about as far from the truth as it is possible to imagine.
How can contador? a racer who has long been within the sport itself and has played by and adhered to the rules, both those rules of an external and those of an internal nature, be anything other than another cog in the wheel?
How can a man who rode for the now completely disgraced ONCE squad who were probably one of the best systemic dopers of the early 2000's be anything other than one of the protected ones that you were alluding to originally.
He was then tarnished with operation puerto, and only saved from further embarrasment by the spanish establishment who stood out and told the world he and other spanish riders were innocent - therby ruining an ongoing investigation and basically ensuring there would never be any trials or prosecutions.
Then when he was finally busted at the behest of the cycling establishment (if we believe your version) was then exonerated by the spanish prime minister no less.
If ever there was an establishment protected rider it is the chosen one Alberto the doper.
The fact that the UCI then found a new golden child in the Team Sky story and their chosen riders to take on the mantle of the new miracle generation is the only reason that AC has not won more races.
He knows that as he stayed with firstly Astana and then Mr 60% and Saxo bank (later tinkoff) and as SKY was the new golden child and ASTANA became the naughty child in the classroom, thanks mainly to vinokourov and his refusal to show any remorse whatsoever for his years of blatant doping abuses and then Tinkoff and Riis fell out with UCI ove Bjarne and his issues and Tinkoff and his outspoken views. That is what killed the Alberto shinning star.
If he had signed for Sky he would have won the last 3 tours and who knows how many other GT's

Alberto is no hero , He is no true champion, he is a bike rider in the midst of an entertainment industry that lost any semblance to sport a long long time ago.

Any other view is yours and you are entitled to it but I am afraid it is naive at best.

Nice post. Couldn't agree more. Ditto for carton's contributions above.

 

[Maxiton]

Re: Re:

Do what no one else had done, or even been in position to do: defy them as champion.

Have you heard of Pantani, Virenque, or Vinokourov? Bettini, Zoetemelk or Merckx? Plenty of "champions", their "spirits" hardly compromised, "defied" the authorities on doping. I doubt the sport is any better for it.

Again, you're missing the point. Maybe you should go back to the beginning and start over. What I'm talking about has nothing to do with "Virenque, or Vinokourov . . . Bettini, Zoetemelk or Merckx". I'm talking specifically about the period of time when Verbruggen dominated the scene in conjunction with Armstrong/Bruyneel. I specifically said, "Pantani [was] the first threat, [and] the first [victim]". I specifically said "It's about the spirit of a lone champion against tyranny." I said nothing about revolution, in cycling or anywhere else.

I think you are being obtuse so that you can argue against what you wish I'd said instead of what I actually did say.

 

[Maxiton]

Re:

I am sorry but the whole analogy of one man against the corrupt upper echelons is about as far from the truth as it is possible to imagine.
How can contador? a racer who has long been within the sport itself and has played by and adhered to the rules, both those rules of an external and those of an internal nature, be anything other than another cog in the wheel? <snip>

That is precisely the question, and precisely the point, as well. When circumstances demanded it of him this cog in the machine who'd always played by the rules found it within himself, against all expectations, to stop being a cog, to defy the rules and the bosses, and become a true champion.

(And Sky would have never signed him because they needed, for their own reasons, a British rider - with a British Commonwealth rider as his backup.)

 

[Rob27172]

Pantani as a victim

Oh my word you are obviously completely disillusion and there is absolutely no point to any other post in this thread whatsoever

Case closed

 

[Maxiton]

Re:

Pantani as a victim

Oh my word you are obviously completely disillusion and there is absolutely no point to any other post in this thread whatsoever

Case closed

Pantani was disgraced and then Pantani was dead. If you think Pantani wasn't a victim of corruption in cycling you need to do some more reading. And some more thinking.

 

[Rob27172]

Re: Re:

against all expectations, to stop being a cog, to defy the rules and the bosses, and become a true champion.


HOW !!!!

He still doped
He still rode for the money
He still played by the rules
All he did was beat Armstrong in a race Armstrong couldn't have won if I'd been riding !!!!

He never once decried the corruption in the sport
He never stopped doping to prove how much different it would be in a clean sport
He never came clean about the systemic doping in each of his teams
He never named names of anyone who was facilitating the global scam that is the UCI and the ASO
He never came clean as to the doping doctors or suppliers or middle men who make the whole system work
He never challenged the Omerta or the organisation or the system at all

He was not and is not a rebel
He is a millionaire cheat who did and still does defraud the public by his cheating - whilst proclaiming to be one of the best 4 or 5 riders in the world.
(which he may well be if everyone was clean or not but we will never know)

None of your arguments hold any water whatsoever

 

[Rob27172]

I know exactly what pantani was
Pantani was a drug addict
Pantani also was an amazing bike rider
Pantani was also an incredibly troubled man

I feel sorry for him, I feel sorry for his family and I feel sorry for those who were affected by what went on

But he like many before him was complicit in his own cheating and in his downfall and in his spiral to his own destruction

Were other people involved - Yes
Were others at fault as well - Yes
Were there probably things going on we don't know - Maybe
Will anyone really know what happened - No

So as far as what was or has ever been proven - I am sorry but I am not going to claim a cheat and a drug addict as a victim, someone let down by the system, I will accept but a hero and a victim to rally around - I think not

You want to bring your children up to believe in cheating and drugs - you go for it . Personally that is not in my moral compass.

 

[Rob27172]

If you want to claim someone as a rebel and a hero and someone who did not give in to money or the system; may I point you in the direction of Graeme Obree
A man who turned down the professional contracts thrown at him due to his dislike of the drugs and systemic cheating he saw; as he was courted by the big teams and a man with his own very public issues he had struggled with.
And someone totally betrayed by the sport he loved and derided and ridiculed by the UCI and who DID stand up to them and beat them at their own game.
Not the likes of pantani who made his millions within the sport and played the game and cried foul when he got caught and went off the rails.

If you want to find a hero they are out there

You might need to look outside of your favourite riders though to find them.

 

[Maxiton]

Re: Re:

against all expectations, to stop being a cog, to defy the rules and the bosses, and become a true champion.


HOW !!!!

He still doped
He still rode for the money
He still played by the rules
All he did was beat Armstrong in a race Armstrong couldn't have won if I'd been riding !!!!

LA came third in 2009. Had Contador played along - listened to Bruyneel - it's quite possible LA would have won.

He never once decried the corruption in the sport
He never stopped doping to prove how much different it would be in a clean sport
He never came clean about the systemic doping in each of his teams
He never named names of anyone who was facilitating the global scam that is the UCI and the ASO
He never came clean as to the doping doctors or suppliers or middle men who make the whole system work
He never challenged the Omerta or the organisation or the system at all

Not his job. He's not a revolutionary, nor an activist, nor a social worker. He doesn't have the training or the background or, in all likelihood, the desire to be those things. He's a bike racer in GTs. And, it turns out, a champion.

He was not and is not a rebel
He is a millionaire cheat who did and still does defraud the public by his cheating - whilst proclaiming to be one of the best 4 or 5 riders in the world.
(which he may well be if everyone was clean or not but we will never know)

None of your arguments hold any water whatsoever

As you said yourself, Contador followed the rules, both internal and external. Following the rules is opposite cheating. In a sport where virtually the entire GC is doped and always has been, and where leading riders engage in a certain measure of doping, doping in itself does not make you a cheat, it makes you a leading rider. As Contador showed, though, this doesn't preclude becoming a true champion.