Why (and How) Bert Should Appeal

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Jan 10, 2012
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Dr. Maserati said:
Sorry to spike your point so quickly - but Contador was sanctioned because the theory he presented of meat contamination was rejected.

Yes, but CAS rejected the meat contamination on a balance of probabilities (together with transfusion). It automatically means that CAS did find contaminated supplements more likely (although they can not know this for sure, but aren't required to - referring to the balance of probabilities)...
 

mastersracer

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Jun 8, 2010
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Nilsson said:
Yes, but CAS rejected the meat contamination on a balance of probabilities (together with transfusion). It automatically means that CAS did find contaminated supplements more likely (although they can not know this for sure, but aren't required to - referring to the balance of probabilities)...

it is more complicated than that. See article 260 of the ruling where the principles of burden are applied to this case and the specific fact that the sample of meat is no longer in principle available. This required a particular application of the balance of probabilities, which would not apply to the supplement scenario, where the burden would be different since there may be batches of supplements to test still available, etc
 
Apr 1, 2009
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Dr. Maserati said:
Sorry to spike your point so quickly - but Contador was sanctioned because the theory he presented of meat contamination was rejected.

yes quite, you can moan on all day about how unfair it seems but the onus was on Contador to explain how the clen got there and he didnt. The burden of proof was for him not CAS to prove anything.

Several posters comment on his great legal team. How great that they pinned all their hopes on one thread, the contaminated meat. Maybe he should look towards the US and Arstrongs team of lawyers they would seem to have done a much better job.

Unforunately.
 
May 24, 2010
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From the front page article...


“The Swiss court will take a look at what CAS has decided and unless it can find evidence of some kind of improper procedure or something irrational, at that stage it’ll dismiss the appeal,” Walters said.

Now you throw all sorts around about the semantics about the ruling but the reasoning still comes across as irrational to me, look at the elements that are presented as theories then come up with something different instead.

Merckx Index, brilliant post send it to the Contador team
 
Jun 7, 2010
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I have only 1 question.

Have there been any athletes that escaped any sort of ban after they have established that the supplements they took were contaminated?
 
May 15, 2011
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roundabout said:
I have only 1 question.

Have there been any athletes that escaped any sort of ban after they have established that the supplements they took were contaminated?

I don't know, but as MI pointed out the concentration of the clenbuterol in the supplement would've been a contration that would pass as "clean". So he could've taken a "clean" supplement while it was in fact contaminated. So he would bear no fault or negligence.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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roundabout said:
I have only 1 question.

Have there been any athletes that escaped any sort of ban after they have established that the supplements they took were contaminated?

When you say "any sort of ban" - athletes have escaped the full sanction and have had their sanction reduced.
But I am not aware of anyone having their full sanction set aside by CAS.


Contadors problem is that CAS examined the theories presented - they ruled meat contamination & the presented transfusion theories "unlikely" while they viewed supplement contamination as "possible".
However as the source of this theory was not identified there is no way to reduce his sanction and apply No Fault (or Significant Fault) or Negligence.
 
Jun 7, 2010
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Yes, but as far as I am aware CAS doesn't appriciate people taking supplements and they consider the best way to avoid risks is simply not take them.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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GJB123 said:
You can be as happy as a pig in ***, but the fact remains that you were way off in every conspiracy you thought you could detect. As a matter of fact you were way off in just about everything you posted on any AC threads. For any other person that alone would have been reason enough to remain very, very humble indeed.:rolleyes:

Regards
GJ

?

I was laughing about your joke for f sake. Thought it was funny.
Jeez, you're an angry bird.

be so kind and try to post here without referring to a certain 'sniper' all the time.
obsessed?
 
Jun 7, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
When you say "any sort of ban" - athletes have escaped the full sanction and have had their sanction reduced.
But I am not aware of anyone having their full sanction set aside by CAS.


Contadors problem is that CAS examined the theories presented - they ruled meat contamination & the presented transfusion theories "unlikely" while they viewed supplement contamination as "possible".
However as the source of this theory was not identified there is no way to reduce his sanction and apply No Fault (or Significant Fault) or Negligence.

The part I bolded is exactly what I was wondering.
 
Mar 17, 2009
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Frankly as legally dubious as I find CAS' rationale on the contaminated supplement angle, I don't see any real benefit to Contador if he pursues an appeal. At best, CAS will be forced to weigh the balance of probabilities between the transfusion theory and the meat contamination theory. Based on their opinion, it seems pretty clear they would come down on the side of transfusion (they were fairly dismissive of the meat contamination theory despite some interesting new facts (e.g., 2009 clenbuterol positive in the Basque region)). In that case, his reputation takes even more of a beating than it already has. At least with the current formulation, he has the (plausible?) argument that it wasn't intentional doping.

The only challenge I could see being worthwhile, is challenging the length of the sanction. It seems to me if CAS is going to maintain the legal fiction that he ingested some phantom contaminated supplement, despite AC arguing that isn't the case, they can't turn around and punish him further for NOT producing the supplement and indicating when he took it--it's a double whammy (reject his position and then punish him as if he was the party advancing the theory and some how failed to satisfy the criteria to prove no fault/non-negligence).
 

mastersracer

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Jun 8, 2010
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Jessica Hardy's case is the most relevant, since it involved Clen via a contaminated supplement, and is the one cited by CAS in this case. She was quite diligent - asked the manufacturer about their processing etc. She received a 1 year ban. As pointed out before, WADA advises athletes not to take any supplements and indicates that there is an assumption of risk in doing so.
 
Mar 17, 2009
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Merckx index said:
Bert has been sanctioned on the basis of a contaminated supplement. While CAS has conceded they don’t know with great certainty that this is the source of his CB, by coming to this conclusion, they have opened the door to an appeal—not of the conclusion itself, but of the sanction. All Bert has to do is point out that the level of CB in his urine that resulted in the sanction could—in fact, would have necessarily—come from a supplement that would test clean by current industry standards.

This study, about five years old, analyzed about 50 samples of different supplements, and found that about 25% were contaminated with steroids, and about 10% contaminated with stimulants (CB is classified as a stimulant). What I found very interesting was not the number of samples that didn’t pass inspection (earlier studies have come to a similar conclusion), but that the detection limit used for CB and other stimulants was 100 ng/g.* The level used for meat in Europe is a thousand-fold lower—100 ng/kg—which means that “clean” supplements can be considerably more contaminated than clean meat. This is basically what opens the door to an appeal (assuming it can be done within the legally allowed framework).

I hadn’t known this before (I have never taken supplements), but most of these supplements are ingested in multi-gram quantities, even the pills or tablets, let alone the drinks, powders, power bars, etc. (See note* below, the detection limit is based on ingestion of 50g. daily of the supplement). So a supplement that tested clean could still have an amount of CB that could result in a positive test in Cologne. Specifically, it has been estimated that Bert’s 50 pg/ml urine concentration would correspond to an ingestion of 200-500 ng of CB. One can modify assumptions and widen that range, but the bottom line is that it is extremely likely—certainly far more than balance of probabilities-- that IF Bert’s positive resulted from ingesting a supplement of several grams or more, that supplement would have tested clean by what is at the very least a recent industry standard. So if CAS wants to make the official cause of the positive a contaminated supplement, they are forced to concede that there is nothing Bert could have done to avoid that contamination. He is not at any fault whatsoever.

In fact, WADA has already laid the groundwork for this rationale. At RFEC, WADA argued on the basis of pharmacokinetics that Bert’s level of CB could not be explained by meat that passed the Euro criterion. This argument is entirely correct, and was accepted by Bert's team, but by making it, WADA is acknowledging that if Bert had a lower level (say 5-10 pg/ml), his positive could have resulted from meat that passed inspection, and that therefore he would have not been at any fault. If a contaminated supplement was the source of the CB, Bert is no more at fault for ingesting it than he would be for a lower level of CB that resulted from eating Spanish meat that passed inspection. In either case, the athlete cannot be held responsible for consumption of something that passes the official standards.

I’m not pointing this out because I think Bert is necessarily innocent of doping. The positive DEHP test, for me, is very compelling evidence of transfusion. I think it’s quite possible he transfused blood without CB, and also took a contaminated supplement, the latter being what triggered the positive. But legally, the DEHP positive doesn’t carry much weight. It’s all about CB. And I think CAS has set a trap for itself here. To reiterate, there is basically no way this amount of CB could have gotten into Bert's system from a contaminated supplement unless that supplement passed the industry standard. If the supplement was contaminated at a level that would make the athlete responsible, Bert's urine level would have tested at a considerably higher level.

I don't know if Bert can appeal on this basis. Supposedly one can appeal only on the basis of procedural errors. But this is complex, because Bert would not be appealing the decision itself, only the sanction associated with that decision. Technically, I don't know if this would be considered a procedural issue or not, maybe a legal mind would know.

Unlike the case with meat, there are no legal implications for supplements failing to meet some standard. They are unregulated, at least in the U.S. (don't know about Spain, but thanks to the internet, they are a global product, anyway). But I don't think this should matter in a doping case. If laboratories testing substances for contamination can't or don't detect the contaminant below a certain level, how can you possibly blame the athlete? If an athlete can be banned on this basis, UCI/WADA should institute a blanket prohibition of all supplements whatsoever, because there is no guaranteed way to protect oneself.

The only argument against the actual logic of this appeal I can see is the reported blood level of CB for Bert that was mentioned in the CAS report (the initial positive, to make sure everyone is clear on this, was based on a urine test; after preparation for the CAS appeal got under way, WADA apparently tested for CB a blood passport sample that Bert provided about the same time during the Tour). But that level, 1 ug/ml, has to be wrong. I'm quite sure no one in recorded history has ever had a CB level that high, and even if it were possible without killing yourself, you certainly couldn't get it from transfusing a few hundred ml of contaminated blood. They may have meant 1 ug/l, or 1 ng/ml, but that level still is not consistent with a urine level of 50 pg/ml about twelve hours later, nor is it consistent with any kind of transfusion scenario. It would also be pretty unlikely to result from a contaminated supplement, though it would be possible. But the initially reported urine levels, 50 pg/ml on 7/21 followed by values in the 5-20 pg/ml range on three succeeding days, are all consistent with each other, and it would be extremely difficult IMO to argue that some other, much higher, value during that same time period was valid.

*The rationale for this detection limit:



Olivier de Hon and Bart Coumans The continuing story of nutritional supplements and doping infractions Br J Sports Med. 2007 November; 41(11)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2465258/?tool=pubmed

Clearly, these detection limits were based on the much lower sensitivity of detection for substances such as CB prior to introduction of the more advanced equipment used at Cologne.

Excellent analysis. I wish I had read this before responding. This is precisely the approach I would take if I were Bert's team. It minimizes the amount of wrangling and CAS/WADA would be hard pressed to form a basis upon which to challenge it (subject, of course, the caveats you note above).
 
Sep 25, 2009
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Suedehead said:
The procedural grounds to appeal are these, as found in the Swiss federal code on private international law:

<snip>
d) if the equality of the parties or their right to be heard in an adversarial proceeding was not respected;
the un-snipped part is the only ground i recall applicable to cas.

that said, i honestly don't care about the appeal since i'm still struggling with understanding whether the verdict passed was based on proper interpretation of the available evidence...that's why this will be my only post in this thread.

however, when reading the ruling, one the notes i jotted was, 'item 238 could the grounds for appeal'. it is about rfec's plea to cas to apply 'human and equitable sports justice which respects and protects the fundamental rights of the athletes'. if i understood it correctly, it was in reference to interpreting 'onus probando' principle. no idea if it is a valid grounds for appeal.
 

Fidolix

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Jan 16, 2012
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sniper said:
?

I was laughing about your joke for f sake. Thought it was funny.
Jeez, you're an angry bird.

be so kind and try to post here without referring to a certain 'sniper' all the time.
obsessed?

No he´s not, he only gives he´s opinion, and how very true it also is.
 
May 21, 2009
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Excellent analysis. Quick question: since the 50 pg/ml was urine, not blood, how much CB total was in his body? ( I assume w/ blood you multiply by 5 liters or so and that's your lower bound).
 
Nov 10, 2009
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Burp

Merckx index said:

Why do you call him BERT. Is it a sign of disrespect on your part?

It's like calling Bernard Hinault "Bernie", to me it sounds ... well I won't say it as you will find it insulting, but then, if my name were Alberto I would somehow feel insulted to be called Bert, specially if it's pronounced Burt.
 
Jan 24, 2012
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Le breton said:
Why do you call him BERT. Is it a sign of disrespect on your part?

It's like calling Bernard Hinault "Bernie", to me it sounds ... well I won't say it as you will find it insulting, but then, if my name were Alberto I would somehow feel insulted to be called Bert, specially if it's pronounced Burt.

Are you serious?

It is a shortened version of his name, to keep typing to a minimum....
 
May 15, 2011
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Le breton said:
Why do you call him BERT. Is it a sign of disrespect on your part?

It's like calling Bernard Hinault "Bernie", to me it sounds ... well I won't say it as you will find it insulting, but then, if my name were Alberto I would somehow feel insulted to be called Bert, specially if it's pronounced Burt.

I don't have such a problem with Bert as long as it is pronounced correctly. The British "Alburto" creeps me out.
 
May 15, 2011
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Sciocco said:
Are you serious?

It is a shortened version of his name, to keep typing to a minimum....

I must admit, it sounds kind of ... rough. Berto or even Bertie sound better.
 
Nov 10, 2009
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Sciocco said:
Are you serious?

It is a shortened version of his name, to keep typing to a minimum....

Are you serious? Of course I am

It is a shortened version of his name No kidding? You didn't think I realized that?

Even Bartolomeo Vanzetti didn't like being called Bart, Joan Baez' song notwithstanding and the fact that she gives me shivers whenever I hear her sing it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcgYwTnBIIQ

Calling people by their name is the first mark of respect you owe them.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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le bret, (tongue in cheek) relax. i actually agree with you when a familiarity is implied but pls consider this is internet - a very informal environment...plus a cultural difference does not equal disrespect but...a cultural difference. i learned it the hard way since i come just north of your neck of the woods.
 
May 26, 2010
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Has the CAS theory that possibility of supplements contamination opened up an escape route for every athlete who test positive for minute amounts of certain PEDs?