You seem to have put a lot of effort into arguing for a slightly greyer noise...I didn't pretend to come up with a better tool.
I merely pointed out your blunt tool isn't even a tool. It's just white noise.
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You seem to have put a lot of effort into arguing for a slightly greyer noise...I didn't pretend to come up with a better tool.
I merely pointed out your blunt tool isn't even a tool. It's just white noise.
This was not the question that was asked and evidence about the perceived difficulty of the race compared with perceptions of previous years has been posted.Do you think that the average speed of the TdF is of any value indicating if the race is hard or not?
You seem to be confusing intensity and speed.
Well you got me confused. Is it about pure speed? Or about intensity? Or about speed up the hills?This was not the question that was asked and evidence about the perceived difficulty of the race compared with perceptions of previous years has been posted.
No, I think you were confused long before you entered this conversation.Well you got me confused.
I'm not confused. You are confused since the start of the topic. Opening post:No, I think you were confused long before you entered this conversation.
Your first response in this topic:Well, I thought I'd ask this question in the clinic. I saw Bardet stating that this TDF is the highest level ever, and that they were breaking climbing records again and again. Why do you think that is ?
...
And that's were it all went down. You introduced average speed and the whole 7 pages of responses were blurred without something completely irrelevant.One question we could ask is whether we really are seeing a faster race than last year. Let's take the blunt instrument of average speed: ...
Sorry, got caught up.Well you got me confused. Is it about pure speed? Or about intensity? Or about speed up the hills?
If this discussion is simply about if riders are going faster in terms of average speed, there is no discussion as this is just a number (not a very interesting one though).
What I am sure about is that the intensity (normalized power) of this Tour was way higher than all previous Tours. I was pointing out that the average speed was not a good indicator at all to say anything about the intensity.
But as with intensity, I am pretty sure the average speed, if corrected for meters of vertical ascent, is also at an all-high level this year.
I spoke to the title of the thread. As I have also posted rider testimony about the perceived difficulty of the race this year I think it's pretty clear that I draw a distinction between speed and effort. You can go hard without being fast, you can be fast without going hard.I think this is probably what FMK_RoI is getting at too, but I don't know.
Lmho! They're faster this year because.......
Wait for it....
They're STILL doping & finding ways around it. Remember, Wonderboy, (aka "The king of doping") "was tested 938 times & never 1 positive".
If they are indeed faster (which they might have been on several occasions), its for sure not because riders are fresher. Hell, all 90% of the TdF GC candidates only use the races before July for building form. There is no way that this is an inferior approach. Because if it was, all riders that do not care about results in 1-week races or classics (which nowadays are actually plenty of GC rideres) would be super dumb doing them, when they could just sit and wait for the Tour and have a significant advatage over the competitors.Of course. There was a story a month or two back that out of competition testing was almost non existent due to Covid. But I also think the lack of racing this year means riders are fresher. So a combination of factors of which doping is one.
If they are indeed faster (which they might have been on several occasions), its for sure not because riders are fresher. Hell, all 90% of the TdF GC candidates only use the races before July for building form. There is no way that this is an inferior approach. Because if it was, all riders that do not care about results in 1-week races or classics (which nowadays are actually plenty of GC rideres) would be super dumb doing them, when they could just sit and wait for the Tour and have a significant advatage over the competitors.
On the topic of speed: Hirschi did 2:45 yesterday on Mur de Huy:
2020:1 km@11,1%---2:45---average speed 21.82 km/h(Hirschi-Cosnefroy-Woods-Barguil-D.Martin-Kwiatkowski)
2019:1 km@11,1%---2:50---average speed 21.18 km/h(Alaphilippe-Fuglsang)
2018:1 km@11,1%---2:48---average speed 21.43 km/h(Julian Alaphilippe)
2017:1 km@11,1%---2:53---average speed 20.81 km/h(Alejandro Valverde)
2016:1 km@11,1%---2:52---average speed 20.93 km/h(Alejandro Valverde)
2015:1 km@11,1%---2:49---average speed 21.30 km/h(Rodriguez-Froome)
2015:1 km@11,1%---2:53---average speed 20.81 km/h((Valverde-Alaphilippe-Albasini-Rodriguez-Moreno)
2014:1 km@11,1%---2:41---average speed 22.36 km/h(Alejandro Valverde)-RECORD
2013:1 km@11,1%---2:48---average speed 21.43 km/h(Daniel Moreno)
2012:1 km@11,1%---3:00---average speed 20.00 km/h(Joaquim Rodriguez)
2011:1 km@11,1%---2:44---average speed 21.95 km/h(Philippe Gilbert)
On the faster side but no new record. Then again, Alaphilippe would probably have been faster and then there would have been a real threat to the two fastest times ever - Valverde 2:41 (2014) and Gilbert 2:44 (2011).
That is true of course.I'd be a bit reticent to read too much into times over such a short climb. All it takes is a couple of seconds hesitation whilst they all look at each other and you probably turn a 2:45 into a 2:50. Not to mention the wind etc. as usual.
All final climbs this Tour were ridden at record speed (ignoring the go slow over Lusette). Of course, it sounds more impressive than it is, given that most of them haven't been raced full gas before (Orcières-Merlette[only pre-EPO], Marie-Blanque, Peyrol, GC, Loze, Glières). So more genuine records would be PdBF and Peyresourde.I spoke to the title of the thread. As I have also posted rider testimony about the perceived difficulty of the race this year I think it's pretty clear that I draw a distinction between speed and effort. You can go hard without being fast, you can be fast without going hard.
WRT @red_flanders : isn't it time you produced a table showing the climbing records broken, just so we're all clear on the specifics of the discussion and aren't just dealing in the usual vague and frequently confusing generalities favoured by so many herabouts?
Wonder if the Tour is purposefully gonna avoid all the famous climbs next year.All final climbs this Tour were ridden at record speed (ignoring the go slow over Lusette). Of course, it sounds more impressive than it is, given that most of them haven't been raced full gas before (Orcières-Merlette[only pre-EPO], Marie-Blanque, Peyrol, GC, Loze, Glières). So more genuine records would be PdBF and Peyresourde.