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RDV4ROUBAIX said:
Cycling just doesn't have the gangster element that football and basketball has in the US, and our sport is marketed to white 30 somethings with money. The majority of gifted black athletes come from very meager means growing up, and couldn't fathom spending more than it costs to buy a ball to play with on a court or field, let alone a race bike.

180mmCrank is right on with the comment:

Cycling is a European sport, and what I'm going to say next might offend some people, but what the hey, I'm as European as it gets aside from living there. Europeans are some of the most racist and prejudiced people I've ever met, and it's not just with people of strictly African decent, it's every hue of not white, and Jews. I've been traveling to Europe for my whole life as I still have family there, tons of friends, and now my job takes me there twice a year for the last seven years. Some of the nicest people I've met in Europe have really disappointed me after really getting to know them, and some are in the bike industry, amazingly.

I think your views on European racism are, frankly, rediculous. Europeans are no more or less racist than Americans or anybody else. And they certainly haven't had the history of slavery, the KKK, etc. Ok Nazi-Fascism was a huge sinister movement, though not an exclusively racist one (but a nationalist one still living in a XIX century mentality), whereas a "fascist" mentality still exists in the minds of some in the US too just as in Europe. As far as jewish racism goes, naturally the discorse changes. Here, however, we ar talking about a sub culture of Christian Western Civilization which predates the Enlightenment and so can't be classified within a mere contemporary historical context. And many jews confuse, for ideological purposes, political criticism of Israel with antisemitism. But returning to the blacks. In France it is well known that blacks have never been treated badly by the mass french culture: to the contrary, they have been loved in the early 20th century for their jazz music for example. I live in Italy and, sure, racism exists, but I think what makes things a bit different in Europe is that they never had a history of black slavery and then Civil Rights to inform the masses about anti-racism. These things in the US have, consequently, created a culture where open racism is taboo, but in which private racism still thrives beneath the surface. In this sense then Europeans are just at greater "liberty" to talk in a racist fashion, since the pressures to not do so from society are less severe than in the US where, by contrast, often one maintains a more or less politically correct public demeanor, but privately remains a racist at heart. If anything the Europeans are thus less hypocritical in their behavior. Having said that, in Italy (which I can personally talk about) there is a strong anti-racist culture among the left wing, whereas at the extreme right things tend to become increasingly racist. But this ideological picture seems to me to be accross the board whever you go around the globe.

In my opinion, the real reason we don't see more black athletes in cycling is that they are generally attracted to other sports where they have traditionally excceled (at times over white athletes). Now there is nothing racist about saying that, in general, black athletes are faster sprinters than white athletes. Though there are allways the exceptions which, however, prove the rule. It seems to me that in this same spirit cycling has offered a black rider a less dominant position and that, perhaps, this has never made the sport all that appealing to their community at large. In any case, with basketball, football, track and field, etc. out there, if I'm correct, then why would a black athlete chose to take up cycling?
 
Mar 19, 2009
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jaylew said:
What exactly does gangster rap have to do with black cyclists? Trust me there are many, many, many, many black kids(and athletes) that go through the US school system who don't act "gangsta" or get into sports because they have a gangsta element. Trust me, I know - I'm one of them and I know many others.

Your getting confused unfortunately. I was clearly addressing the gangster element in football and basketball, not cycling. You just can't sit there and tell me that g-rap, football and basketball are not intimately intertwined, that would just be plain naive. I realize there are many that don't follow that prescription, but there are many who do, from youth to pro. Can't deny that. If you still don't understand what I'm saying, I'll just assume you live in the veritable paradise of the suburbs.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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rhubroma said:
I think your views on European racism are, frankly, rediculous. Europeans are no more or less racist than Americans or anybody else. And they certainly haven't had the history of slavery, the KKK, etc. Ok Nazi-Fascism was a huge sinister movement, though not an exclusively racist one (but a nationalist one still living in a XIX century mentality), whereas a "fascist" mentality still exists in the minds of some in the US too just as in Europe. As far as jewish racism goes, naturally the discorse changes. Here, however, we ar talking about a sub culture of Christian Western Civilization which predates the Enlightenment and so can't be classified within a mere contemporary historical context. And many jews confuse, for ideological purposes, political criticism of Israel with antisemitism. But returning to the blacks. In France it is well known that blacks have never been treated badly by the mass french culture: to the contrary, they have been loved in the early 20th century for their jazz music for example. I live in Italy and, sure, racism exists, but I think what makes things a bit different in Europe is that they never had a history of black slavery and then Civil Rights to inform the masses about anti-racism. These things in the US have, consequently, created a culture where open racism is taboo, but in which private racism still thrives beneath the surface. In this sense then Europeans are just at greater "liberty" to talk in a racist fashion, since the pressures to not do so from society are less severe than in the US where, by contrast, often one maintains a more or less politically correct public demeanor, but privately remains a racist at heart. If anything the Europeans are thus less hypocritical in their behavior. Having said that, in Italy (which I can personally talk about) there is a strong anti-racist culture among the left wing, whereas at the extreme right things tend to become increasingly racist. But this ideological picture seems to me to be accross the board whever you go around the globe.

Nonsense! Europeans who colonized North America brought slaves with them. You taught us all about it. US created KKK. England created the Nazi Skinhead. Current right wing European political parties are the most racist in the world. We've just had different experiences I guess, and possibly schooling. Fact remains that Nationalism and right wing extremism is huge in Europe.
 
RDV4ROUBAIX said:
Nonsense! Europeans who colonized North America brought slaves with them. You tought us all about it. England created the Nazi Skinhead. US created KKK. Current right wing European political parties are the most racist in the world. We've just had different experiences I guess, and possibly schooling. Fact remains that Nationalism and right wing extremism is huge in Europe.

I fully understand the problems with right-wing natioanlism in European politics. That Europeans traded in black slaves takes away nothing for its abhorent continuation by Americans in the post US birth of the nation era. But this is historically comprehensible since the US nation was Europe's child. Look all I said was that Euroepans are no more or less racist than Americans (and in this sense your panning them out to be so was riddiculous because its wrong), just that, among some racist Europeans they can be less hypocritical than their American counterparts for the reasons I mentioned. As far as political extremism goes, after 8 years of Bush and the Republican Neo-cons I ask: from which pulpit do you preach?
 
Apr 12, 2009
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Don't think their is that much difference between racism in Europe, USA, China, Turkey or Brazil....µ


Edit: SW is right: back to cycling!
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
i think its a fairly simple location, and lifestyle issue...
WE may as well just ask, why arnt there more cylcists from inner city backgrounds...

Ultimately, most, and this very much generalising, most, black or coloured people in europe over the years have been immigrants to the various countries, or sons, daughters, grandaughters of imiggrants.. when most settled in the country they chose, it was for work etc, and as a result most still live in inner cities... growing up on the outskirts of Manchester in england, or perhaps the 14e in Paris, cylcing isnt really that much of an option, and simple fact is that in areas like that basketball, football (soccer) are much more accessible forms of sport.. As wealth becomes more proportionately split, and people from ethnic backgrounds live in the country in uk, or the suberbs in the us etc, then naturally cycling will become a more obvious choice for them

i think the same comparison could be made with Tiger Woods.. golf isnt a rich mans sport, nor a white mans sport, purely that there are not many black americans who (and i dont know america) that well, who have access to the facilities needed to become a top golfer.. its not lifestyle, or some such, its purely location..

By the same token you could probably ask why not many white folk, from a small village 200 miles from nowhere in arizona have gone on to be top basketball players..
 
A

Anonymous

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Im more worried about why there are not more gingers in cycling.. :D
 
Mar 19, 2009
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rhubroma said:
I fully understand the problems with right-wing natioanlism in European politics. That Europeans traded in black slaves takes away nothing for its abhorent continuation by Americans in the post US birth of the nation era. But this is historically comprehensible since the US nation was Europe's child. Look all I said was that Euroepans are no more or less racist than Americans (and in this sense your panning them out to be so was riddiculous because its wrong), just that, among some racist Europeans they can be less hypocritical than their American counterparts for the reasons I mentioned. As far as political extremism goes, after 8 years of Bush and the Republican Neo-cons I ask: from which pulpit do you preach?


I know the further south you go, the less racism there is due to it's proximity to North Africa. Man, those Moroccan girls in Lyon!!....OMG! It may have seemed like a crude generalization, but for the majority of white northern, central, and eastern Europeans, prejudice and racism is far more prevalent than where you are for sure.

I'm an Independent. I will never associate with Dem. or Rep. Pick the best person for the job regardless of political affiliation.

Back to cycling.. see you tomorrow, or whenever.. I'm off.
 
Yeah, getting off track. Let me see if I can get us back on.

Don't think anyone mentioned Nelson Vails, who rode on the track in the 1984 Olympics to a silver medal. Then also raced some on the road. The Lawrence Fishburn character in Quicksilver was based on Vails who had been a bike messenger and was nicknamed The Cheetah, because of his speed on the bike.

NelsonVailsFeb07.jpg


There was another black cyclist on the track at that time as well who didn't medal. I'm sorry I can't remember who he is. Maybe someone else can find his name.

I think what I was trying to say is that while there exceptions, and I do see the general reasons why, it's kind of peculiar that we've now named 4-5 black athletes in cycling over the last 70 years. That's an alarmingly low amount, even considering the reasons listed. Take a look at the generic photo below I found from NYC. It's not like there aren't any young black people that ride road bikes:

mt5.jpg


I guess what I'm saying is that the sport in general, everything from the UCI to USCF to educational system like Lemond advocates, might be able to do a better job than they have. And if they did, I think we'd see some great black athletes competing in cycling. Not that either the organizations or athletes should be forced to do so by some sort of mandate, nothing like that. I just think it would be cool to see.
 
Susan Westemeyer said:
Enough politics....... back to cycling!

What's up with these types of posts? Is cyclingnews.com worried about content other than cycling being discussed for legal reasons or something?

It's normal in discussion forums for some topics to wander slightly off-topic. It a natural part of a discussion to broach the meta environment surrounding a topic.

Frankly I find these attempts to kill discussions that wander slightly off the cycling topic in poor taste. I guess we should just stick to discussing doping instead. At least that's a cycling discussion.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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OK, I'm going to sound really politically incorrect here...but why the big drive to have all cultures into cycling? If someone gets into cycling, regardless of race, that is fine...but I don't think it should be made into a "we need to have a rainbow peleton" just for the sake of it. In my opinion, at least in the US, kids are exceedingly lazy. My son races in the 10-14 age group and he is lucky to have a field of 10 riders of any race or creed. I am more about growing the sport period rather than meeting some racial quota. This is happening all to often in the US these days. Example, a year or two ago a major african american group urged professional baseball to make efforts to recruit more young black children into the sport because their numbers were falling in the majors. Apparently they didn't like the hispanic players from central and south america coming in and taking those spots...even thought they were better players. Is this right? Heck no...if one wants to get into a sport at a high level then do it regardless of race. In the US cycling is an afterthought sport...for all races, and needs to be grown any way possible, preferably without any thought to race.
 
Alpe d'Huez said:
Yeah, getting off track. Let me see if I can get us back on.

Well I don't think I was getting off track, because the commentor's response identified racism in Europe as behind why we don't see more blacks in cycling. An idea which I found to be critically off base and that, furthermore, promoted a conception of European society which didn't treat the issue in its entirety and complexity and, therefore, distorted reality. In any case, issues brought up in the form are open to be dealt with is in my case.
 
TRDean said:
OK, I'm going to sound really politically incorrect here...but why the big drive to have all cultures into cycling?


Well, it's not always about wanting to change the situation at hand as much as understanding why things are the way they are. You could see it as a social anthropology case as well.

Then when you do understand the situation you can, if you want to, act in ways to change the situation but I think there is merit in knowing something without having to change it...
 
ingsve said:
What's up with these types of posts? Is cyclingnews.com worried about content other than cycling being discussed for legal reasons or something?

It's normal in discussion forums for some topics to wander slightly off-topic. It a natural part of a discussion to broach the meta environment surrounding a topic.

Frankly I find these attempts to kill discussions that wander slightly off the cycling topic in poor taste. I guess we should just stick to discussing doping instead. At least that's a cycling discussion.

This is why we need a "cycling cafe" forum. Since this forum is pretty much all pro racing, there are a lot of subjects that do not fit.
 
Apr 29, 2009
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I agree the forums should be split up more, keeping the doping and racing discussion seperate.
 
Ibanez said:
I agree the forums should be split up more, keeping the doping and racing discussion seperate.

I'm of the opinion that given that doping is such a part of the sport (as the new revelations make us painfully aware), that to not talk openly and frankly about it is like living in denial. Everyone has a choice to chime in, or not. And nobody forces anybody to read or talk about anything they don't want to or approve of. It's democratic. And I frankly find it annoying that there are (should be) taboos, because it is a very small jump from there to censorship. Something which I find disconcerting and, frankly, if it were to come to that I'd no longer participate in this forum for reasons of principle.
 
Ibanez said:
I agree the forums should be split up more, keeping the doping and racing discussion seperate.

I was not suggesting a forum for racing and a separate forum for doping. I was suggesting a forum for general non-racing subjects. Most cycling sites have such a forum.
 
TRDean said:
I am more about growing the sport period rather than meeting some racial quota. This is happening all to often in the US these days. Example, a year or two ago a major african american group urged professional baseball to make efforts to recruit more young black children into the sport because their numbers were falling in the majors. Apparently they didn't like the hispanic players from central and south america coming in and taking those spots...even thought they were better players.

Is the reasoning that you state behind this groups push for recruiting young black children into baseball from your own assumptions or is it fact? Did this group say that they felt Hispanic players were taking spots that blacks used to fill?

I am African-American and grew up in a major metro area and the reasons I believe explain the lack of black participation in the competitive side of cycling are the following:
-Lack of exposure to competitive cycling
-Lack of safe areas to ride a bike continuously without fear for your life from automobiles
-Football can be played on a local school field or even in the street (touch football) with your buddies
-Basketball can be played in one's backyard or a friend's, on local courts or gymnasiums and in school during gym class
-In the suburbs you have more county, state and national parks where riding a bike is safer and more likely to be a family experience from early on in a childs life
-While as a youth my friends and I did ride our bikes and I was one of a select few of my friends that always wanted to "race" whenever we went on one of our unauthorized (by our parents) cycling excursions miles away from home.
-I raced off and on from my late 20's through my early 30's and had a regular crew of guys that I trained and raced with. When they all slowly stopped racing due to family obligations and other personal reasons, I ended up being the last of my group left riding regularly. One tends to be most comfortable around people that they share common histories and likes and when my core group stopped riding the fun of competing and training lessened. It wasn't until I began riding regularly again in my early to mid forties did I once again connect with a group of like minded African-Americans and begin riding and occasionally racing again. I guess it has to do with percentages also. There is a much higher percentage of Caucasions taking part in the different aspects of cycling: BMX, mountain biking, cyclo-cross, road bike racing, track racing and most likely in the suburbs. Even the Caucasions that live in the city that were exposed to the sport were likely exposed to it by a family member, friend or relative.

It appears that cycling is a sport that African-Americans are more seriously attracted to later in life (mid 30's and on). My current group ranges in age from mid 30's up to early 60's. Some compete but most just enjoy riding the occasional tour, group rides and taking cycling vacations. For most of us it is a recreational love affair with the sport. In cities like New York, Philadelphia, Atlanta and I would imagine LA there is strong cycling culture.

By the way there is another rider on Bbox Telecom named Rony Martias although I believe he may be of Carribean descent. There was a rider on Cofidis named Medric Clain with his last year with them being sometime within 2003-2005 that was caught up in their doping scandal from that time period. As mentioned earlier there is a black rider that rides for the French National team who won a world championship in one of the track events but his name escapes me.

Regarding European race relations compared to the U.S., while in both places there is an undercurrent of racism due to public displays of such belief being currently politcally incorrect, the incidents of soccer professionals of African descent being assaulted verbally and physically by fans appears to be higher in Europe than the same occurring involving African descended sports professionals in the United States. This based on my own personal observations of media related articles that I've seen. I'm sure other forumites will chime in.
 
Mar 11, 2009
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RDV4ROUBAIX said:
I don't think my mind needs to be changed, but I will read the book. Ask any black athlete about who paved the way for them, and I bet you not a one will say Major Taylor. Chronologically yes, he was one of the first ever, but in a dead sport. Baseball took over as America's pastime before Taylor made his mark.

At the time, cycling was NOT a dead sport. In fact, it was probably the #1 sport in the country.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Power13 said:
At the time, cycling was NOT a dead sport. In fact, it was probably the #1 sport in the country.

Wrong. You can take what I said out of context all you want, but the fact remains that Major Taylor is far less recognized due to the fact that baseball had already been the #1 sport in the US for almost 50 years by the time anyone heard of him. Do your homework.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Angliru said:
Is the reasoning that you state behind this groups push for recruiting young black children into baseball from your own assumptions or is it fact? Did this group say that they felt Hispanic players were taking spots that blacks used to fill?

This was indeed stated by the group...I am not sure which group it was. I am definitely not trying to start a race war here...if any youngster who I come into contact with wants to get into cycling I would welcome it with open arms. I am just against pointing out that not many athletes in any sport are from one racial or ethnic group or not. That being said...to the original poster...that is indeed a great shot of Mr. Bahati. I have seen him race and field sprint and he is without a doubt a very fast man!!
 
Mar 11, 2009
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RDV4ROUBAIX said:
Wrong. You can take what I said out of context all you want, but the fact remains that Major Taylor is far less recognized due to the fact that baseball had already been the #1 sport in the US for almost 50 years by the time anyone heard of him. Do your homework.

Hmmm....you haven't read the book, I have (along with others like "Hearts of Lions" by Peter Nye.) Who hasn't done their homework?

Read the book and get back to me, 'k?