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Why Don't We See More Pictures Like This?

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Mar 19, 2009
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The fact that people are crying about that if a discussion strays away from cycling for a second, is absolutely ludicrous. All the points we've touched are part of the original discussion. Why aren't there more people of African descent in cycling. All the points are valid and should be welcomed, social stratification, poverty, European racism, which no matter what you think about that, it's an unavoidable truth. I've even been a witness to racism in heart of the bicycle industry, but that very important point just seemed to be overlooked. I find that the people who b!tch and moan about the topic straying, usually haven't read the entire conversation. Can't just read a sample of the discussion then start making critical statements. Everything we've discussed has to do with the original topic. I'm actually quite pleased how this topic has progressed, we've kept the conversation cordial, no body is attacking each other like when the topic turns to doping, which is pretty much every other thread. This is a great topic, and at least we've kept the conversation reasonable here.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Power13 said:
Hmmm....you haven't read the book, I have (along with others like "Hearts of Lions" by Peter Nye.) Who hasn't done their homework?

Read the book and get back to me, 'k?

I will read the book, but the fact remains that Baseball was already the #1 sport in the US by the 1850's. Major Taylor didn't make any waves until almost the turn of the Century.
 
Mar 11, 2009
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RDV4ROUBAIX said:
I will read the book, but the fact remains that Baseball was already the #1 sport in the US by the 1850's. Major Taylor didn't make any waves until almost the turn of the Century.

We can quibble back and forth about what sport may or may not have been #1....but to say that cycling was a "dead sport" is 100% factually incorrect.

Taylor was a national phenomenon....and cycling was a HUGE sport, packing stadiums and velodromes across the country.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Yes, you're right. Not dead, but Taylor's exploits on the track faded from history quickly because the country was preoccupied with it's #1 sport, baseball. Nothing to argue about there, it's a plain and simple fact. The point I was making when I said "dead", was to reiterate the fact that virtually no black athlete today would've ever heard of Major Taylor, because cycling got taken over by baseball as the #1 sport in the country long before he was noticed. No denying that Velodrome racing was America's national pastime up until baseball took over in the mid 1850's. Heck, the National League wasn't even created until the 1870's, but that's still more than 20 years before the country even heard of Major Taylor.
 
Apr 10, 2009
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The French track sprinter that everyone keeps referring to is Gregory Bauge. I watched him race at the velodrome in Los Angeles. This guy is a monster, massive power and speed. Incredible to watch, wouldn't want to have to sprint against him.

bauge.jpg


worldsprint09.jpg
 
Mar 18, 2009
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RDV4ROUBAIX said:
Your getting confused unfortunately. I was clearly addressing the gangster element in football and basketball, not cycling. You just can't sit there and tell me that g-rap, football and basketball are not intimately intertwined, that would just be plain naive. I realize there are many that don't follow that prescription, but there are many who do, from youth to pro. Can't deny that. If you still don't understand what I'm saying, I'll just assume you live in the veritable paradise of the suburbs.

I'm not sure what your point is here. Football and basketball have been predominantly black for quite a while, long before g-rap came along. The only reason that there is somewhat of a g-rap influence in those sports now is not necessarily because of the back athletes, but because g-rap has spread more into the mainstream of American culture.

I think the main reasons for the lack of black cyclists are factors like: cost barrier to entry, public popularity, television coverage, income potential, and most importantly marketing. Also, since baseball has been brought up it's interesting to note that the number of black professional baseball players has been steadily declining over the past decade.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Sorry md2020 you have to read more than just a few posts. If you've read the entire conversation, you'd see that nobody is talking about the history of the correlation between g-rap, basketball, and football. You're right, the way things are currently, is most African Americans do not have the money and/or resources to get involved in bike racing. Marketing is a HUGE aspect, and they have really no bike racers of any significance to look up to. I'm not holding my breath for Young Jeezy, Three 6 Mafia or anyone else to all of a sudden start promoting bike racing in their rhymes or vids. Yes, King James owns part of Cannondale, but that's about it. The sad truth is that cycling as a sport in the US is very TV unfriendly for the average person, no matter what color you are. In today's instant gratification culture, it's just not happening.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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RDV4ROUBAIX said:
The sad truth is that cycling as a sport in the US is very TV unfriendly for the layperson, no matter what color you are. In today's instant gratification culture, it's just not happening.

I'm afraid it's always going to be that way for competitive cycling. As popular as bicycle riding became in the late 80's and 90's, there just isn't any racing here unless you REALLY go out of your way to find it. Heck, I've lived in the cycling hotbed of southern California for the past twenty years and the only races that I've seen, that I haven't participated in, are the La Jolla Grand Prix (which I think ended in the early 90's) and this year's ToC finale. Regardless of color, it's hard to have any interest in a sport when you don't even know it exists.
 
Apr 29, 2009
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RDV4ROUBAIX said:
Cycling is a European sport, and what I'm going to say next might offend some people, but what the hey, I'm as European as it gets aside from living there. Europeans are some of the most racist and prejudiced people I've ever met, and it's not just with people of strictly African decent, it's every hue of not white, and Jews. I've been traveling to Europe for my whole life as I still have family there, tons of friends, and now my job takes me there twice a year for the last seven years. Some of the nicest people I've met in Europe have really disappointed me after really getting to know them, and some are in the bike industry, amazingly.

You are right. Ridiculous comments like this ARE going to offend people. What a bizarre and sweeping statement this is, what exactly are you basing this on? Oh yes you have travelled there, is that it? I am european and this is in itself a racist statement and is merely your own personal opinion which you are entitled too no matter how wrong it is. Please do not tar me with your ignorant brush. How an american can make this statement with your (all too recent) history of black persecution escapes me.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Well you can't say I didn't give you fair warning. I'm willing to bet I've talked to more people in the bike industry there than you, and seen more of Europe than most people who live there. By the way, Europeans brought black persecution here. History doesn't lie.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Well you can't say I didn't give you fair warning. I'm willing to bet I've talked to more people in the bike industry there than you, and experienced more of Europe than most people who live there. By the way, Europeans brought black persecution here. History doesn't lie. You planted the seed, and we grew it, until MLK fought it. It doesn't take away from the fact that bike racing was created by white Europeans. Europe has an undeniable racist problem, just like every where else, but racism by whites has a much longer European history than anywhere else, it was invented there, to deny it would be unbelievably naive. Bike racing started there, not here, and the US spawned the 1st Black cyclists of any significance. Go figure.
 
Apr 29, 2009
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dimspace said:
Im more worried about why there are not more gingers in cycling.. :D

Hah! We burn too easily in the harsh Euro sun. At least thats another excuse I can give myself for never turning pro, along with my inability to suffer and lack of any talent.
 
RDV4ROUBAIX said:
Your getting confused unfortunately. I was clearly addressing the gangster element in football and basketball, not cycling. You just can't sit there and tell me that g-rap, football and basketball are not intimately intertwined, that would just be plain naive. I realize there are many that don't follow that prescription, but there are many who do, from youth to pro. Can't deny that. If you still don't understand what I'm saying, I'll just assume you live in the veritable paradise of the suburbs.

Is it about gangsta rap or gangster behavior? I've played college football at a major college and know several guys who made it to the NFL. There is absolutely nothing "gangster" about the vast majority of black athletes in the NBA and NFL. Of course the ones who do behave in such a way garner an inordinate amount of publicity). Coming from a poor economic background does not mean you're a gangster(not that you said it did). Listening to gangsta rap does not make one a gangster(if that were the case, half the white kids growing up in the burbs would be).

Back to the initial topic. Your initial quote:

RDV4ROUBAIX said:
Cycling just doesn't have the gangster element that football and basketball has in the US, and our sport is marketed to white 30 somethings with money. The majority of gifted black athletes come from very meager means growing up, and couldn't fathom spending more than it costs to buy a ball to play with on a court or field, let alone a race bike.
I guess the problem I saw with your initial comment was that it implied that the reason black kids get involved with a sport is because it has a gangster element, which isn't true. It might be true for a few but certainly not the majority. Every kid I ever played football with wanted to get an athletic scholarship but it wasn't because of anything to do gangsters. It was because we had been watching and playing the sport our whole lives.


So what's keeping all the kids who don't want to be gangsters from getting involved in the sport? It's about exposure. Not many kids in general in this country are exposed to it and even fewer black kids are. The reduced exposure is due to several obvious factors that have already been discussed: cultural, economic, logistical...

I guess Lance has helped the general exposure to the sport here, but the only other time you hear about the sport in the States is when someone gets busted:(

Btw, got lots of experience on both "sides of the track" as the two halves of my family were generally on opposite ends.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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jaylew said:
Is it about gangsta rap or gangster behavior?

You're missing something so fundamental about what I'm saying. The culture defines the athlete. If I said you're ghetto or gangster because of what you listen to, that would be really dumb on my part. If rap and hip hop were making references to Major Taylor, and had Rahsaan Bahati in their videos, it would be a different world for cycling. When I go to pro basketball and football games they're not playing 'Busted Bicycle' by Leo Kottke in between plays or timeouts.
 
Apr 1, 2009
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I agree with those who say it's a cultural thing. Also, kids need a hero, someone they can relate to.
Personally, I think a lot of the track black guys could come across and be good road sprinters. It's not like it hasn't happened before?
 
lanternrouge said:
You are right. Ridiculous comments like this ARE going to offend people. What a bizarre and sweeping statement this is, what exactly are you basing this on? Oh yes you have travelled there, is that it? I am european and this is in itself a racist statement and is merely your own personal opinion which you are entitled too no matter how wrong it is. Please do not tar me with your ignorant brush. How an american can make this statement with your (all too recent) history of black persecution escapes me.

I can understand your reaction because of RDV4ROUBAIX's wording:

Europeans are some of the most racist and prejudiced people I've ever met

This statement does make a general sweeping remark which is unfortunate because that doesn't exactly mirror the true face of racism in europe. The essence of his statement does have alot of truth in it though.

The truth is that racism is a trait that is very digital. There are alot of people in europe that are very racist. This is evident in the rise of very racially unfriendly right wing parties in the last 15-20 years all over europe.

At the same time alot of people are not racist at all but rather quite the opposite. They're not a shred of racist, at least in comparison.

So since there is a mix of very racist people and not at all racist people it's a bit unfortunate to talk about europeans as a whole with regards to this topic.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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ingsve said:
So since there is a mix of very racist people and not at all racist people it's a bit unfortunate to talk about europeans as a whole with regards to this topic.

Not as a whole, and I did mention that some of these very racists I met are at the heart of the European bike industry, which nobody picked up on. I'm obviously not going to name anyone or any company they're affiliated with, because if I did it would make your head spin, and cause much bigger problems. You can argue back and forth about that comment being crude, rude, or way to general, but it's based on fact, I'm not making it up to cause controversy. Those that think that Europe doesn't have an inherent racism problem, generally speaking, or even in the bike industry there, are either living in a racial utopia, or living like an ostrich with their heads in the sand.
 
RDV4ROUBAIX said:
Not as a whole, and I did mention that some of these very racists I met are at the heart of the European bike industry, which nobody picked up on. I'm obviously not going to name anyone or any company they're affiliated with, because if I did it would make your head spin, and cause much bigger problems. You can argue back and forth about that comment being crude, rude, or way to general, but it's based on fact, I'm not making it up to cause controversy. Those that think that Europe doesn't have an inherent racism problem, generally speaking, or even in the bike industry there, are either living in a racial utopia, or living like an ostrich with their heads in the sand.

I absolutely don't doubt that there are racist people in the cycling industry in europe. Denying that would be a very very high gamble with probabilities...
 
Apr 29, 2009
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RDV4ROUBAIX said:
You can argue back and forth about that comment being crude, rude, or way to general, but it's based on fact, I'm not making it up to cause controversy. Those that think that Europe doesn't have an inherent racism problem, generally speaking, or even in the bike industry there, are either living in a racial utopia, or living like an ostrich with their heads in the sand.

Based on fact. What facts? You state NO FACTS only your opinion. Who is denying there is still racism? No-one. You did not state that in your original statement. You said that europeans are more racist than americans! Unless you can confirm this with anything vaguely resembling a fact and not just your opinion I suggest you keep yout ignorant incorrect opinions to yourself. Go figure as you say.
 
Great post Angliru. Thanks for the insight. Are you old enough to remember who the other African-American rider on the track in the 1984 Olympics? Not Vails, who medaled and almost beat Gorsky, but someone else who did well. It's bugging me I can't remember his name, and can't find him on a Google search.

A former coach of mine named John raced against Gorsky a few times. We found a tiny listing from an old newspaper article his wife collected where John beat him. John couldn't believe it, "What? That's got to be a misprint!". Then he remembered that Gorsky had flatted in that heat.

This thread to me, for me anyway as I started it, wasn't about any sort of agenda, but about an understanding.

I agree that having a hero or champion would help. Someone to compete in the Tour, Olympics, World's, etc.

But has Tiger Woods, as great as he is, made a big impact on young black athletes, getting them to golf more? I honestly don't know.

A friend of mine coaches baseball from juniors to high school. His youngest brother is half-black and trying to be a catcher, as Russell Martin is the only black catcher in MLB (and he's one-fourth black). This kid is motivated, but the concept that there is some movement against "Hispanics taking over baseball" probably wouldn't even register on his radar screen.

Anyone remember the movie American Flyers? Where Robert Townsend had a bit part as domestique for Barry Muzzin (who now posts on these forums! ;))
 
Mar 10, 2009
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RDV4ROUBAIX said:
Well you can't say I didn't give you fair warning. I'm willing to bet I've talked to more people in the bike industry there than you, and experienced more of Europe than most people who live there. By the way, Europeans brought black persecution here. History doesn't lie. You planted the seed, and we grew it, until MLK fought it. It doesn't take away from the fact that bike racing was created by white Europeans. Europe has an undeniable racist problem, just like every where else, but racism by whites has a much longer European history than anywhere else, it was invented there, to deny it would be unbelievably naive. Bike racing started there, not here, and the US spawned the 1st Black cyclists of any significance. Go figure.

Actually it was invented by "Europeans" in the colonies, the binary opposite of Europe. For Europe to have any meaning at all, it needed an hierarchically inferior counterpart, namely the colonies. It was in opposition to the colonies that the image of Europe came into existence.

When explorers 'discovered' the Americas, (one only dis-covers or better un-covers something that is already assumed and therefore has meaning before it is located... see the "higgs particle"), but also Africa and the Far East, it was deemed inferior to "europe" in political, cultural, economic and legal aspects. Montesquieu wrote his Trias Politica in opposition to the observations of the cultures and legal traditions that existed among local tribes in India. He hierarchised despotism (India, inferior), under monarchism (European), and republicanism (European, superior). Even though he failed to really distinguish between despotism and monarchism, he still managed to undervalue the Indian ways of societal regulations and sanctioning.

Kant connected moral qualities with physiology/anatomy, also known as physiognomy, and became therefore one of the forebears of the non-cultural form of anthropology. He asumed that blacks were incapable of moral acts.

Linneaus, a biologist, started categorizing species, from animals to human beings. Again, only after early colonization had provided him with the exotic species that came to stand in opposition to the 'known' species.

To continue how "europe" and "the colonies" worked together as a tandem (see there is cycling in this story), the rattling gun was invented by the English in Africa, to contain rowdy tribes that weren't too easily subdued by normal firepower already. The English even perfected containment against rebellious Boers, and can be seen as an early form of concentration camp in South Africa against the Boers.

Even nationalism was a form of togetherness that basically came into existence in the colonies. Early administrators in Latin America found soon that their work was far from appreciated by the courts in Europe. People near the kings had far more change of climbing the social ladder then the expats, so that they soon figured that their ties were closer to the indigenous population and overcame their native ties. Claims of more autonomy and self-rule eventually lead to claims of independence, and the birth of nations. Out of 3 revolutions that founded nations, 2 were former colonies, namely Haiti (1790) and the US (1776). This new sense of sharing 'cultural' ties, and the identification of a 'culture' as such, soon took over in Europe, and which eventually lead up to World War I and II.

Isn't it ironic, that colonization outside Europe, then eventually lead to the self-destruction of Europe.

All this was not to criticize, but more or less to support what you hinted at.