GreggGermer said:When I wrote "everything legal" I was trying to convey the lengths I was going to to ride naturally. Spending to much time in the Clinic can lead to people auto-replacing keywords in articles with their doping euphemisms.
I'll repeat that I never took anything and never did anything to bring any of my levels of blood or testosterone up to some wada defined variable. I explored as many natural ways to get the most out of what my body would give. I am not a naturally gifted road cyclist, so I had to work quite hard at it. Doing anything illegal to bring ones levels up to the "legal" limit is still illegal last time I checked ... it may present a moral loophole to some, but not to me.
Also, I want people to know I do believe there were others who rode clean and made it to the top. How many? I don't know? I can only speak for myself. I do know there were others who couldn't ride their way out of wet paper bag while on dope, so it isn't always the "magic sauce" people believe.
Gregg
hiero2 said:. . . . My only point is that it seems to me it would become an extra chore to avoid doing something that could get you in trouble. The line between doping and non-doping seems like it could be very difficult to me. EPO is obviously over that line, but there is so much available as everyday substances that are not.
Cloxxki said:. . . I know in my heart that supplements can make a great, healthy improvement on performance. I've seen my own results. Showing up to a race barely fit, a course that never suited me, and a cocktail of herbs before the race made it really, really, much better than was to be expected. . ..
Flux Capacity said:Safron, turmeric and beetroot juice?![]()
hiero2 said:Actually - this is kinda what I was talking about. When does the food supplement cross the line? For instance, back when I raced, ephedra was legal. It is an herb, and a good and potent one. However, remember that coca and opium are also herbs and good and potent. So, ephedra supplements became commonplace, and got abused, and became illegal.
There are herbs that affect RBC production. I don't think they are currently WADA illegal. If it does the same thing as a micro-dose of EPO, should it be illegal? Is it doping to use it? Not technically. But once you have used it, how far away is the mental justification to use something similar when you can't get what you had?
There are herbs that affect energy level, like ephedra. Most of the supplement and herb market is just expensive filler for your toilet bowl. Some of it is real - or at least can be real when used properly. But that which is real probably also presents the possibility of abuse.
I am always disappointed in performances and behavior that I think is gained from a pill. But I also know that it must be a difficult line to draw sometimes. And, using "WADA legal" as a dividing line is not a good moral answer. Yet, if I were to race again, I don't know any other line.
Flux Capacity said:There's a story around here (Melbourne, Aus), which could be an urban myth, that word got out about drug testers turning up to a large club race, and about a dozen A-graders suddenly disappeared and decided not to race.I wonder...
Yes, that'd probably be more effective than the old trick of dropping a couple of 4mm bolts under your competitor's bike at the start line, then telling him they fell off his framethe big ring said:Would be fun to spread that rumour after a few NRS races and see who drops out all of a sudden inexplicably.
Flux Capacity said:Yes, that's probably be more effective than the old trick of dropping a couple of 4mm bolts under your competitor's bike at the start line, then telling him they fell off his frame![]()
Well then, in your case I could drop a loose wire under your bike at the start line, just to mess with your head.the big ring said:Way OT but I have built all 3 of my road bikes with Di2 and it would be ridiculously easy to sabotage someone.![]()
hiero2 said:Actually - this is kinda what I was talking about. When does the food supplement cross the line?
hiero2 said:For instance, back when I raced, ephedra was legal. It is an herb, and a good and potent one. However, remember that coca and opium are also herbs and good and potent. So, ephedra supplements became commonplace, and got abused, and became illegal.
hiero2 said:There are herbs that affect RBC production. I don't think they are currently WADA illegal. If it does the same thing as a micro-dose of EPO, should it be illegal? Is it doping to use it? Not technically. But once you have used it, how far away is the mental justification to use something similar when you can't get what you had?
hiero2 said:I am always disappointed in performances and behavior that I think is gained from a pill. But I also know that it must be a difficult line to draw sometimes. And, using "WADA legal" as a dividing line is not a good moral answer. Yet, if I were to race again, I don't know any other line.
GreggGermer said:Morally my line was the WADA code and anything else that could potentially harm my health in the long run.
Teddy Boom said:What about TUEs for asthma meds and who knows what else though? You do a great job of drawing a pretty clean line in your postings, and I really appreciate that, but still it seems you've avoided the most thorny issue when it comes to discussing the grey areas..
GreggGermer said:For me doping was only one part of the problem that impeded my career, financial considerations and regulations regarding the hiring of foreign riders in Belgium also had a large impact on my stopping. But to deny the hinderance of doping overall to my (and others) careers is not going to do the subject justice, which is why I wanted to tell my story.
GreggGermer said:TUE's are the grey area created to alleviate the medical necessity quandary I talked about earlier.
I don't have any TUE experience as I never had any. I know guys use them to further ride the line of what they can get away with. I don't believe the peloton has as much asthma as TUE's suggest, but guys get them with the idea they need them because others have them (very much part of the Omerta is the idea that others doing it, so I have to do it, therefore it's not cheating). This mentality is self-fueling as it creates cheaters and further "justifies" the need to cheat.
I know couple of riders who do have a legitimate TUE for the use of specific asthma medication, both of whom I know used them as they were intended (ie. for legitimate breathing problems).
I think the TUE program is needed, but is one area that could use improvement. Make it to lax and the cheaters have more options, make it to strict and clean athletes can be denied access to medication that allows them to be healthy(ier).
Any more questions on grey areas? I'm open to discussing any and all of the areas of doping that people want to know. Just know when it comest to direct doping that I don't have any of those juicy answers you guys crave, sorry.
Realist said:Quote:
Originally Posted by GreggGermer View Post
For me doping was only one part of the problem that impeded my career, financial considerations and regulations regarding the hiring of foreign riders in Belgium also had a large impact on my stopping. But to deny the hinderance of doping overall to my (and others) careers is not going to do the subject justice, which is why I wanted to tell my story.
This is a nice story, but to be honest, doping was not much of a hindrance to your career. . . .
zigmeister said:I've been making this argument with people for a long time. If you want "fairness" and a "level playing field", words the USADA loves to use all the time in just about every statement they release, then TUEs shouldn't exist.
You can't take anything, nor should any drug of any kind be allowed.
Next, there is no requirement for a TUE for any asthma drug, like albuterol. So the fact that WADA/USADA etc allow an FDA approved drug that technically can only be purchased in the US with a doctor's prescription, says they aren't interested in "fairness" and that level playing field at all.
They only focus on the general perceived perception of particularly drugs. EPO, Steroids, corticosteroids etc...
If they truly want a level playing field, you ride with what you're were born with. If you have any physical issues and problems that require you to take any kind of drugs that allow you to compete, they should be banned and you are not allowed.
You ride with what you were born capable of. End of story. But once you start to make "exceptions" based on socially accepted/non-accepted ideas, not science and fact, you just made the sport "unfair". Way to go USADA/USA Cycling/CUI/WADA.
Albuterol in studies have been shown to help cyclist compete at a higher level. The numbers show that in the testing they did with cyclist and improvements it made led to the conclusion it might help cyclist perform at a higher level. But, it is 100% allowed without a TUE for cyclist to use.
Realist said:1. In saying that doping hindered you, you are effectively saying (almost) everyone better than you was on the gear. Not even close mate. You were not that good. This is casting aspersions on a lot of riders. Some of them were charging but plenty of them weren't.
Realist said:2. In saying that doping hindered you, you lend credibility to the argument that riders who are much above your level must dope. As above. Rubbish. Paradoxically, I think this kind of logic actually encourages doping... what is a kid to think once they hit their natural limit* of 5.1 w/kg? They can stay clean and be mentally blocked by this kind of foolishness, or they can dope. Never mind that if they hadn't had all these people worrying about what the limits were they might have smashed through them.
Realist said:3. This kind of preachy stuff from sub-elite riders takes away from the very, very few people who actually did face a hard decision and go the right way with it... Bassons, for example. What would you have actually done if you'd faced the decision to ride the tour or retire, contingent on using a bit of skin cream or a tablet, or not? Neither you nor I will ever know.
Realist said:fn: I have data from calibrated power meters of a guy on 10 hrs/wk riding above 5 w/kg. I was ~ 4.8 w/kg (rarely tested properly, just from race data), eating pastries and drinking beer, with no program, just racing local stuff. Another friend of mine training properly is around 5.8 w/kg. He's serious, but no pro tour teams signing him yet and the wins don't come easily. This is just out of a couple of serious training bunches in one big city. Not in Europe. Not Girona or anything. We're all clean. The real lesson is, work hard, win local stuff. Once you really dominate your local elite racing, do national level stuff. Once you're smashing the national level, think about Europe. Don't think that eating croissant and waffles and learning another language will turn you from a moderately talented endurance athlete into a true elite.
You don't know what you are talking about.zigmeister said:I've been making this argument with people for a long time. If you want "fairness" and a "level playing field", words the USADA loves to use all the time in just about every statement they release, then TUEs shouldn't exist.
You can't take anything, nor should any drug of any kind be allowed.
Next, there is no requirement for a TUE for any asthma drug, like albuterol. So the fact that WADA/USADA etc allow an FDA approved drug that technically can only be purchased in the US with a doctor's prescription, says they aren't interested in "fairness" and that level playing field at all.
They only focus on the general perceived perception of particularly drugs. EPO, Steroids, corticosteroids etc...
If they truly want a level playing field, you ride with what you were born with. If you have any physical issues and problems that require you to take any kind of drugs that allow you to compete, they should be banned and you are not allowed.
You ride with what you were born capable of. End of story. But once you start to make "exceptions" based on socially accepted/non-accepted ideas, not science and fact, you just made the sport "unfair". Way to go USADA/USA Cycling/CUI/WADA.
Albuterol in studies have been shown to help cyclist compete at a higher level. The numbers show that in the testing they did with cyclist and improvements it made led to the conclusion it might help cyclist perform at a higher level. But, it is 100% allowed without a TUE for cyclist to use.
GreggGermer said:I'll answer your questions below ...