why is conserving energy seen as genius now ?

[meat puppet]

I don't know if this is the right topic, but anyhow... Rewatching the finale I think Canc's best option FTW would have been using the acceleration out of the 90-degree corner at 1,3k to go as a launchpad. It was right after Gerrans took his only pull. So instead of going first into the corner, as Canc did now, let Gerrans lead them out into the corner and then jump the other two in the acceleration and see how it goes. Had he got a gap, no way they were coming back.

 

[wirral]

Ban the radios.

 

[Panda Claws]

And how many tricks does Gilbert have?

Attack uphill.
Attack on the last climb.
Attack on a steeper gradient.
Pedal faster when the road goes up.

What else?

People seem to think that Gilbert is an euskaltel rider on the flat and whenever there is a hill he suddenly levitates.

Gilbert can accelerate on the flat as well. Most of the time he just doesn't need to.

You can not be a serious contender for the green jersey without being able to sprint/accelerate well on the flat.

 

[ultimobici]

And how many tricks does Gilbert have?

Attack uphill.
Attack on the last climb.
Attack on a steeper gradient.
Pedal faster when the road goes up.

What else?

Attack on descent?
2010 Lombardia was won that way

Visconti is caught by the main group. As they catch him, Michele Scarponi (Androni) puts in a big acceleration and the bunch begins to be whittled down a little more.
Zubeldia has dropped Gusev and is chasing Mollema alone.
14:36:21 GMT
The action is hotting up in the main group. Vincenzo Nibali (Liquigas-Doimo) has gone to the front and is causing serious problems.
14:36:56 GMT
Strong move from Nibali. Only a select few are able to follow. Scarponi is up there, as is Gilbert.
14:38:32 GMT
Gilbert is marking Nibali closely. These are the two favourites and they know it. Scarponi is also looking strong, and there is a solid group forming around these three.
41km remaining from 260km
14:40:38 GMT
Mollema approaches the top of the Colmo di Sormano and zips up his gilet against the elements. The temperature is just 6 degrees at the summit of the climb.
14:42:04 GMT
The descent of the Colmo di Sormano is treacherous at the best of times, but when you factor in rain and falling leaves, this could be carnage...
Gilbert and Nibali both almost ride in to the back of one of the motorbikes on the first bend but manage to stay up.
14:43:44 GMT
Gilbert isn't hanging around on this descent. He knows that Evans and the Schlecks were struggling to maintain contact near the top of the climb, and he'll want to open up a gap. Nibali is up there with him.
37km remaining from 260km
14:45:06 GMT
Evans seems to have been dropped and he'll be hard pressed to get back on now with Gilbert putting the pressure on down this descent.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/giro-di-lombardia-2010/live-report

 

[Havetts]

2010 Lombardia was won by Gilbert cause Scarponi failed when he changed gears..

 

[The Hitch]

People seem to think that Gilbert is an euskaltel rider on the flat and whenever there is a hill he suddenly levitates.

Gilbert can accelerate on the flat as well. Most of the time he just doesn't need to.

You can not be a serious contender for the green jersey without being able to sprint/accelerate well on the flat.

Could you please read discussions so we don't have to explain every little point to every new poster who enters it.

people know Gilbert is a good rider on flat.

Just like they know that Cancellara can be good uphill too.

But Pistolero didnt say that Cancellara was a 1 trick pony.

He said "As far as TACTICS are concerned"


TACTICS

You understand now?

Tactic wise.

So if Gilbert is as far as tactics are concerned a 1 trick pony that doesnt mean Gilbert can't ride on flat. It means tactic wise his only tactic is to attack uphill.


Yes there are incidents where Gilbert wins by doing something else.

Same with Cancellara though. So if Cancellara is tactic wise a 1 trick pony, so is Gilbert.

 

[Panda Claws]

Could you please read discussions so we don't have to explain every little point to every new poster who enters it.

people know Gilbert is a good rider on flat.

Just like they know that Cancellara can be good uphill too.

But Pistolero didnt say that Cancellara was a 1 trick pony.

He said "As far as TACTICS are concerned"


TACTICS

You understand now?

Tactic wise.

So if Gilbert is as far as tactics are concerned a 1 trick pony that doesnt mean Gilbert can't ride on flat. It means tactic wise his only tactic is to attack uphill.


Yes there are incidents where Gilbert wins by doing something else.

Same with Cancellara though. So if Cancellara is tactic wise a 1 trick pony, so is Gilbert.

Point taken. My excuses.

 

[The Hitch]

Point taken. My excuses.

Apologies for the ott.

 

[Kvinto]

I'm sure he is aware of it, which only makes it more stupid. I see people calling Cancellara's tactics solid and I guess it is, if you use a tactic to finish second.

People don’t call his tactics solid, they disagree to call it stupid.

It was also quite clear Gerrans was going to be faster in a sprint.

You tend to underestimate Cancellara's sprint. Gerrans is no doubt stronger on uphill, but in flat sprints it’s not that ‘quite clear’, especially after a long day. Gerrans won that sprint only because of his position.

He could have let them get caught and try attacking again, he obviously had the energy for that seeing how he held of the chasing group on his own anyway.

IMO he was close to dropping Gerrans and Nibali on the descent, but he’s not a machine to attack the bunch of 40 riders several times. It was only 2sec of advantage in the end.

He could have gambled on Bennati's sprint, which would have been better if he could have started from Cancellara's wheel.

Unfortunately, Bennati's sprint is not quite what is clever to rely on especially if you want to win races.

He had options and although they might have meant finishing lower than 2nd, in my opinion the odds of him or his team winning would have increased. Basically if your goal is to finish as high as possible, than Cancellara did the right thing. If your goal is to win, I seriously have my doubts.

He had options which might have paid off better but as soon as he had started the Poggio descent only one option was left. Had he rejoined the bunch they would not have let him go once more and had he tried to play games before sprint, Sagan would have won and we would all have sung the praises to Liquigas’ tactics.

 

[El Pistolero]

And how many tricks does Gilbert have?

Attack uphill.
Attack on the last climb.
Attack on a steeper gradient.
Pedal faster when the road goes up.

What else?

In case you didn't notice: the trick works for Phil. It doesn't work for Cancellara last 5 Monument races he rode

Even a donkey doesn't make the same mistake twice. Cancellara sadly does. Watch the Ronde van Vlaanderen 2007. He DOESN'T learn from his mistakes.

Also, watch all of Phil's wins last year. Plenty of examples where he won without doing any of the things you just said. Take Gullegem Koerse for example, where he won by taking the final corner faster than everyone else. Or his national title where he eliminated more than half of the peloton on a flat road 80km from the finish. Or the queen stage of the Tour of Belgium where he destroyed everyone in his wheel for many kilometers. And not on a hill

He even paved the way for Samuel Sanchez' only stage win in the Tour

 

[Panda Claws]

In case you didn't notice: the trick works for Phil. It doesn't work for Cancellara last 5 Monument races he rode

Even a donkey doesn't make the same mistake twice. Cancellara sadly does. Watch the Ronde van Vlaanderen 2007. He DOESN'T learn from his mistakes.

Also, watch all of Phil's wins this year. Plenty of examples where he won without doing any of the things you just said.

To be fair Gilbert lost his gap on the flat following the hill a lot of times as well.

 

[Ripper]

TBH - I was impressed Canc was able to put in such an effort over the top of the P. That is a newer tactic from him in that race. It seems no one else was even close to being able to bridge the gap.

The Ronde will be interesting this year.

 

[theyoungest]

To be fair Gilbert lost his gap on the flat following the hill a lot of times as well.

Yes. De Ronde. Sergeant: "Ride the time trial of your life, Phil!" Immediate reaction: he gives up.

 

[El Pistolero]

Yes. De Ronde. Sergeant: "Ride the time trial of your life, Phil!" Immediate reaction: he gives up.

Those car message were recorded and not live. And it was 5 minutes after he said that, not immediately

But really, how many people do 20km solos in classics? Some of you guys act as if that's the norm...

 

[Kvinto]

Those car message were recorded and not live. And it was 5 minutes after he said that, not immediately

But really, how many people do 20km solos in classics? Some of you guys act as if that's the norm...

still better than some of us who call it stupid

 

[Cobblestoned]

Regarding yesterday we heard a lot about how gerrans outsmarted canc how hes"played" him how the clever rider won. not just on here but from ds's too.
i don't get this. everyone knows that if you follow a rider you save energy. Obviously you will be better off if you don't pull. is that some sort of secret only available to the intelligent now ?

Are people saying canc didn't know he was helping others more than himself. That he has no clue that riding out of the wind saves energy ?it seems so.

this is ridiculous. First of all canc did ask the others to help him. but they refused. from then canc knew that it was his only chance at contesting the win. There was no time to continue to pest nibali and gerrans for their contribution.

gerrans won the tactical battle not by being smarter but because he is not cancellara.

credit his strength and his sprint but to credit him as some sort of genius because he followed wheels. that's like crediting a footballer for kicking the ball in the right direction.w

You can indeed call it genius, because in those final kilometers, brain lacks a lot of VO2 to work. Even from just following Cancellara on the decent.

"pfffff.....pfff......spit...uffff....i think i have to puke....pfffff....who's that....argghhh.....i can see again....pffff...pffff...it's ****ing crazy Cancellara that freak.....pffff...and tiny Nibali...ufffufff......Canc outsprints me any day....follow him and suck=better....uffff...what did he say.....pffff...pfff.....well, **** you....uaaaagh....it's getting dark again...and all that pee......arghhhh.........add short alibi pull for the people and then outsprint him.....ufffff....ok...ok...ok....now.... stomp em....YEAHHHH.
I'm ****ing genius, ain't I ? But I don't think the hitch will agree."

Gerrans, sovereign and genius in any situation.

 

[Escarabajo]

I agree with Hitch on this.

So because Gerrans is Australian he is not a wheelsucker?

But when riders from other countries do it they are wheelsuckers?

People, can't have it both ways.

 

[The Hitch]

In case you didn't notice: the trick works for Phil. It doesn't work for Cancellara last 5 Monument races he rode
]

and Phil has won 1 of his previous 5.

Think before you post.

He even paved the way for Samuel Sanchez' only stage win in the Tour

I know cos lotto didn't have many good riders you thought they were all Phil , but that was jelle vanendert.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

Being gifted a stage by a Tour winner who has more important things on his plate, and who's latchee knows this and forces him to the front because of such a situation is not the same thing.

sounds good, but I'm not so sure. I remember Miguel being upset at JB for not taking any turns at the front and then taking the win.

 

[oldcrank]

It has nothing to do with being an Aussie. Nibali wasn't
working either. Most of what people are calling wheel
sucking was on the descent not uphill or into a head
wind which is much different.Whether some of you
think Nibali had a better reason for not working than
Gerrans just doesn't matter at all. Gerrans won, get
over it.

 

[Walkman]

Regarding yesterday we heard a lot about how gerrans outsmarted canc how hes"played" him how the clever rider won. not just on here but from ds's too.
i don't get this. everyone knows that if you follow a rider you save energy. Obviously you will be better off if you don't pull. is that some sort of secret only available to the intelligent now ?

Are people saying canc didn't know he was helping others more than himself. That he has no clue that riding out of the wind saves energy ?it seems so.

this is ridiculous. First of all canc did ask the others to help him. but they refused. from then canc knew that it was his only chance at contesting the win. There was no time to continue to pest nibali and gerrans for their contribution.

gerrans won the tactical battle not by being smarter but because he is not cancellara.

credit his strength and his sprint but to credit him as some sort of genius because he followed wheels. that's like crediting a footballer for kicking the ball in the right direction.w

Agreed.

Gerrans didn't outsmart anyone, he won solely because of Canc. Fabian is a true warrior who prefers a podium to a 5th place even if it means that he would have to "give" the victory to another rider.

He only had two options:

Drive on and contest for the win (and most likely end up second (lets face it, Nibbles wouldn't even beat Basso in a sprint))

Refuse to do all the work and see guys like Sagan and Freire come back and take the win.

Needless to say he choosed the right option and wasn't, nowhere near outsmarted by Gerrans.

And don't get me wrong, Gerrans won fair and square but not by outsmarting Fabian but mearly by having a fellow sprinter in the chase grope.

 

[personal]

Cancellara's tactics worked againgst Niballi and almost against Gerrans. He had some distance on decend but Gerrans come back. Barely.

I just wonder what Sagan was thinking as it seems to me he had to hold back because of Niballi in front while he maybe was able to catch first group and contest sprint for the win.
Anybody shares this view?

 

[El Pistolero]

and Phil has won 1 of his previous 5.

Think before you post.



I know cos lotto didn't have many good riders you thought they were all Phil , but that was jelle vanendert.

It WAS Gilbert who paved the way for Vanendert and Sanchez in the descent of the Tourmalet.

And winning one Monument out of your previous 5 is a lot better than a 100% fail rate don't you think? But if we just look at the hilly classics(and San Remo), Phil's succes rate is all of a sudden much higher. Because Cancellara only does the cobbled classics and San Remo....

 

[El Pistolero]

I agree with Hitch on this.

So because Gerrans is Australian he is not a wheelsucker?

But when riders from other countries do it they are wheelsuckers?

People, can't have it both ways.

He IS a wheel-sucker, but he still won didn't he? If you're not the strongest than you need to find other ways to win. Cancellara constantly underestimates his opponents. That's one big tactical error.

 

[Kvinto]

Cancellara's tactics worked againgst Niballi and almost against Gerrans. He had some distance on decend but Gerrans come back. Barely.

I just wonder what Sagan was thinking as it seems to me he had to hold back because of Niballi in front while he maybe was able to catch first group and contest sprint for the win.
Anybody shares this view?

Sagan should be pretty upset because these 2 seconds between him and Cancellara's group is what Nibali might have contributed into the chase instead of uselessly sitting on wheels, not being able to outsprint a rider who had dragged him to the finish line