why is conserving energy seen as genius now ?

[El Pistolero]

All what ifs. If Boeckmans didn't crash, Sagan probably wouldn't have won the sprint anyway.

 

[gilbertador]

What i look at is the final kilometre notice all 3 riders looked around and then cance didnt even try to disguise taking up the pace, to win he must be prepared to lose. Gerrans would have seen Goss wasnt there so would have had to jump eventually, Cancellara never forced his hand. Winning MSR is bigger for Gerrans is way bigger than it is for Cancellara he wold have come through allowing Cancellara to jump him

 

[woodenswan]

Agreed.

Gerrans didn't outsmart anyone, he won solely because of Canc. Fabian is a true warrior who prefers a podium to a 5th place even if it means that he would have to "give" the victory to another rider.

He only had two options:

Drive on and contest for the win (and most likely end up second (lets face it, Nibbles wouldn't even beat Basso in a sprint))

Refuse to do all the work and see guys like Sagan and Freire come back and take the win.

Needless to say he choosed the right option and wasn't, nowhere near outsmarted by Gerrans.

fully agree. i mean.. these are the facts. another signature cnf debate about nothing

 

[cycladianpirate]

Think before you post.

Perhaps you should take your own advice.

I can see the commentary now:

"Gerrans crosses the line first - a great effort but, of course, we'll have to wait for The Hitch and the other CN Forumites to decide who actually won.

 

[The Hitch]

He IS a wheel-sucker, but he still won didn't he? If you're not the strongest than you need to find other ways to win. Cancellara constantly underestimates his opponents. That's one big tactical error.

He underestimated an opponent once, maybe, in Nuyens, and even then it was the entire peloton that stopped him in the first place.

WHen else did Cancellara underestimate an opponent?

 

[The Hitch]

Perhaps you should take your own advice.

I can see the commentary now:

"Gerrans crosses the line first - a great effort but, of course, we'll have to wait for The Hitch and the other CN Forumites to decide who actually won.

When did I say he didn't win?

When did I ever call to question the validity of his victory?

Please do answer. Either show me where I said it or apologize for false accusations.

 

[ramjambunath]

credit his strength and his sprint but to credit him as some sort of genius because he followed wheels. that's like crediting a footballer for kicking the ball in the right direction.w

Actually, I'd contest this analogy. The equivalent of kicking the ball in the right direction would be pedalling (or possibly John Terry would know better) and anyone can do that. What Gerrans did was more "fox in the box" equivalent and that gets a tag called clever. Nothing worth getting the knickers in a twist over.

 

[cycladianpirate]

gerrans won the tactical battle not by being smarter but because he is not cancellara.

credit his strength and his sprint but to credit him as some sort of genius because he followed wheels. that's like crediting a footballer for kicking the ball in the right direction.w

This, this and this again. You 'damn him with faint praise'.

Gerrans won fair and square. At least have the decency to admit that you don't like the fact that he won.

 

[Sylvester]

All what ifs. If Boeckmans didn't crash, Sagan probably wouldn't have won the sprint anyway.

 

[Mellow Velo]

It has nothing to do with being an Aussie. Nibali wasn't
working either. Most of what people are calling wheel
sucking was on the descent not uphill or into a head
wind which is much different.Whether some of you
think Nibali had a better reason for not working than
Gerrans just doesn't matter at all. Gerrans won, get
over it.

Don't think holding up Nibali for the defence holds water.
He clearly wasn't able to raise a sprint, attempt a jump, or anything.
After his attack on the Poggio, he was spent.

Gerrans got lucky, both in the fact that he had the best descender/engine in the bunch to follow, who was prepared to tow him all the way to the line, knowing that if he swung off, none of the three would make the podium.

Maybe Gerrans was smart to figure out that Cancellara was even smarter and would except the odds.
However, he would have looked plain dumb, had Fabian done what is the norm.
So, it's understandable that the tag of wheelsucker lands in the lap of another Australian.
Doesn't invalidate the win though: fair and square.

 

[El Pistolero]

Most of the big sprinters that were still left got stuck behind that crash.

 

[krismtb]

Surprised there's much talk about this subject. This is the nature of road cycling, to use your opponents tactically and then strike when the time is right.

I agree that Cancellara raced to his strengths and I would not consider that to be stupid. But who am I to talk? Maybe someone here knows the results of his IQ test and just isnt kind enough to share.

If this was a TT it would be an easy win for him. Isn't it the tactical aspect of road racing that makes it more entertaining? Gerrans rode a good tactical race and should be thankful to Cancellara for the win. He wouldn't be jack sh_t without him, at least not in this race.

To call Cancellara stupid like a dumb donkey pulling the cargo that is Gerrans is just suggestive of ulterior motive on the part of the critic. Even that is okay, just admit it.

 

[Ripper]

Sagan should be pretty upset because these 2 seconds between him and Cancellara's group is what Nibali might have contributed into the chase instead of uselessly sitting on wheels, not being able to outsprint a rider who had dragged him to the finish line

I agree. Oss would have pulled too. Nibs was a nit. There is no way he is going to get away and stay away without someone with a huge engine or jump that would just murder him in a sprint. And with the team Liqui had, Nibs should have been the hard worker bee but not protected.

 

[pedaling squares]

Cancellara IS a one trick pony. As far as tactics are concerned that is.

It's not a bad trick though, is it? He seems to come 1st, 2nd, or 3rd in just about all of the races he targets, despite being a marked man. Although I would argue that he has a few variants of the same trick. Attack at 50 km out, attack at 2 km out, attack at 100 km out, attack on the last climb, attack on the descent...

 

[ElChingon]

sounds good, but I'm not so sure. I remember Miguel being upset at JB for not taking any turns at the front and then taking the win.

Well would you be happy about having a fellow racer just suck your wheel and make you work only to nip you at the line and take the glory of a Tour stage win? Big Mig might of won the tour but at the same time he wants to win a stage so he doesn't have to answer questions from the media on how he won another tour but no stages or non TT stages. There are many factors involved and no amount of wheel sucking justification based on teammate behind/in the break/GC contender will ever be enough for the guy coming in 2nd after working for most of the stage.

Its almost as nobody races and just watches...

 

[rata de sentina]

I don't understand why there are two threads on the same subject. Anybody who hangs around this forum knows that Hitch has a somewhat romanticised view of the sport, still I don't think there is a need for multiple threads merely to satisfy his need to vent. C'mon mods wake up how did this get to 6 pages.

 

[FabulousCandelabra]

Lol, thread title, and content, have St. Patricks day written all over them...

 

[bridgeman]

I give Canc all the credit in the world. Besides knowing why the other two were not going to help, he also knew if they got into a cat and mouse game for even 3 seconds he would have gotten maybe 10th place. It's the nature of this particular race. He knew they did not have that big of a gap. It was all out, with a few hollow gestures to pull through. It played out just as it should.

 

[leftover pie]

I'm starting to think this whole "first over the line" thing is completely flawed, since it seems to create such discontent amongst real cycling fans.

Perhaps a way to get a truer result from a race is to have judges award points based on how everyone conducted their race including allocations of points for how a rider got to and then crossed the line.

At the completion of the race the cyclists go into a holding area, and await the final result.

What cycling fan wouldn't relish the opportunity to watch Gilbert, Cancellara, Gerrans, Sagan on a 4 way split screen all eagerly awaiting the final result from the judges?

To brighten things up we could give them boquets of flowers or teddy bears to hold.

At least we know we'd have a result everyone could agree with.

 

[austy37]

I don't understand why there are two threads on the same subject. Anybody who hangs around this forum knows that Hitch has a somewhat romanticised view of the sport, still I don't think there is a need for multiple threads merely to satisfy his need to vent. C'mon mods wake up how did this get to 6 pages.

maybe if this race was won by a more established team?

 

[BillytheKid]

Regarding yesterday we heard a lot about how gerrans outsmarted canc how hes"played" him how the clever rider won. not just on here but from ds's too.
i don't get this. everyone knows that if you follow a rider you save energy. Obviously you will be better off if you don't pull. is that some sort of secret only available to the intelligent now ?

Are people saying canc didn't know he was helping others more than himself. That he has no clue that riding out of the wind saves energy ?it seems so.

this is ridiculous. First of all canc did ask the others to help him. but they refused. from then canc knew that it was his only chance at contesting the win. There was no time to continue to pest nibali and gerrans for their contribution.

gerrans won the tactical battle not by being smarter but because he is not cancellara.

credit his strength and his sprint but to credit him as some sort of genius because he followed wheels. that's like crediting a footballer for kicking the ball in the right direction.w

Don't know if you've ever raced Hitch.

The key factors here are the descent of the Poggio:

Gerrans and Nibali could not move around Cancellara as he chose to attack them on the downhill. That was Cancellara's move, but he did not open enough of a gap to achieve it.

Garrans did come too the front, once, as Fabs let of the gas after Poggio.
But Gerrans' pace was to slow.

Cancellara rides to victory when he can ride contenders off his wheel. Nibali and Gerrans were fresh enough to attack.

Cancellara's only chance was to attack on the uphill and solo. That did not happen.

With Gerrans on board Fabs had no choice but push on. I thought a couple of times the string might break, but no. Gerrans was having problems staying right on the wheel. I don't think either he or Nibali could have come around for most of the last 7ks.

I don't fault Gerrans to much for following in this case.

 

[Le breton]

Regarding yesterday we heard a lot about how gerrans outsmarted canc how hes"played" him how the clever rider won. not just on here but from ds's too.
i don't get this. everyone knows that if you follow a rider you save energy. Obviously you will be better off if you don't pull. is that some sort of secret only available to the intelligent now ?
...........

In my racing days I would have been ashamed of doing what Gerrans did. Should the fact that of course the financial rewards were far less (or that we were so-called amateurs) enter in the equation? I don't think so.

In small groups it was an unwritten rule that whoever didn't participate in the common effort didn't take part in the final sprint. Period.

Most guys accepted that rule as they didn't want to be branded as profiteers (if that is the right word, please correct me as necessary).

I would think that would be a universal rule.

I wonder what Cancellara will say off the record. The circumstances may have been such that he might think that Gerrans was entitled to sprint.

 

[Le breton]

Don't know if you've ever raced Hitch.

The key factors here are the descent of the Poggio:

Gerrans and Nibali could not move around Cancellara as he chose to attack them on the downhill. That was Cancellara's move, but he did not open enough of a gap to achieve it.

Garrans did come too the front, once, as Fabs let of the gas after Poggio.
But Gerrans' pace was to slow.

Cancellara rides to victory when he can ride contenders off his wheel. Nibali and Gerrans were fresh enough to attack.

Cancellara's only chance was to attack on the uphill and solo. That did not happen.

With Gerrans on board Fabs had no choice but push on. I thought a couple of times the string might break, but no. Gerrans was having problems staying right on the wheel. I don't think either he or Nibali could have come around for most of the last 7ks.

I don't fault Gerrans to much for following in this case.

Warning : just for BillytheKid

Since you are from New Mexico, I'll add this story.

When I lived in New Mexico i raced a number of times in Ciudad Juarez, Mexico, (in its peaceful days). In one of those races I once missed a 4-5 guys breakaway.

Eventually, after many attempts, I also broke away from the bunch with one Mexican guy on my wheel who refused to collaborate and sat on my wheel the whole 20 km he took me to catch up (about 15 km before the finish line).

During the whole time of the chase he was being berated by his countrymen who were following us in a car.

He went on to win the race in the final sprint but I can tell you he got far less congratulations than I did.

PS : Around that time I won another race named "The Billy the Kid Alpine race" starting in Ruidoso and ending, of course, in Lincoln in front of the famous jail. That's a funny memory.

 

[BillytheKid]

In my racing days I would have been ashamed of doing what Gerrans did. Should the fact that of course the financial rewards were far less (or that we were so-called amateurs) enter in the equation? I don't think so.

In small groups it was an unwritten rule that whoever didn't participate in the common effort didn't take part in the final sprint. Period.

Most guys accepted that rule as they didn't want to be branded as profiteers (if that is the right word, please correct me as necessary).

I would think that would be a universal rule.

I wonder what Cancellara will say off the record. The circumstances may have been such that he might think that Gerrans was entitled to sprint.

If Gerrans continues to do such a thing, yes. I'll look at it again, but I really felt Cancellara was close to dropping them on several occasions up 2ks so Gerrans did not have the benefit of the draft as much up to that point. Cancellara had no choice then but to take it in or miss the podium because Sagan and company were closing fast.

 

[zigmeister]

credit his strength and his sprint but to credit him as some sort of genius because he followed wheels. that's like crediting a footballer for kicking the ball in the right direction.w

What strength? He couldn't even do 1 pull because when Canc would pull back through, they had one hell of a time trying to hold his wheel.

So, they went the easy route, hope you don't get dropped off his wheel and can edge him out in a sprint.

Nothing special he did except prove he is a weaker rider and used a tactic to "win" a race.

He won't be winning any World TTs in his future, that is for sure.