Why is it always teams and not riders 'programs'

[Gavandope]

A comment by a rider a few weeks ago about how the passport could be beaten got me thinking.

Because micro dosing on Edgar, a small refrigerator/freezer for the intact blood and a centrifuge to measure your levels and micro transfuse accordingly seems pretty attainable for a rider with an accomplice. All without the direct complicit involvement of his team. Sticking blood in a vein such as the foot could be much easier to hide/disguise than the arm.

Separating the blood into plasma etc for longer storage requires medical technicians and facilities and much more importantly more that know about them doping. A 2 person doping 'cell' seems a far better idea not to get busted in this day and age of cycling we're in now.

Could a lot of these so called team programs be down to the riders themselves - then the only criticism of these teams is which teams turns a blind eye to which riders who DIY their own blood?

If it's been asked before forgive me for being a parrot - I'm still not even a quarter way through jv's thread!

 

[D-Queued]

A comment by a rider a few weeks ago about how the passport could be beaten got me thinking.

Because micro dosing on Edgar, a small refrigerator/freezer for the intact blood and a centrifuge to measure your levels and micro transfuse accordingly seems pretty attainable for a rider with an accomplice. All without the direct complicit involvement of his team. Sticking blood in a vein such as the foot could be much easier to hide/disguise than the arm.

Separating the blood into plasma etc for longer storage requires medical technicians and facilities and much more importantly more that know about them doping. A 2 person doping 'cell' seems a far better idea not to get busted.

Could a lot of these so called team programs be down to the riders themselves - then the only criticism of these teams is which teams turns a blind eye to which riders who DIY their own blood?

If it's been asked before forgive me for being a parrot - I'm still not even a quarter way through jv's thread!

The micro-dosing shouldn't be that hard.

The blood stuff, however, has too much risk and temperature control, etc., is a lot more sophisticated. There are very few companies (only one that I could find in NA on the Internet) that will allow you to store your own blood.

I think Tyler's book provides some insights on blood storage. Some things (re-infusions in the near future) could be managed personally, and Lance had a fridge for that. He also had motoman, obviously, for transport. But, you have to extract, clean, store, recover yourself, remove from storage, prepare for reinfusion, etc. That is harder.

One reason that Operacion Puerto was successful was that Fuentes co-opted the Spanish medical system and stored blood bags with them.

Dave.

 

[ToreBear]

I think Danilo Deluca was into some personal blood doping stuff. I think he ended up in a hospital though.

 

[Gavandope]

The micro-dosing shouldn't be that hard.

The blood stuff, however, has too much risk and temperature control, etc., is a lot more sophisticated. There are very few companies (only one that I could find in NA on the Internet) that will allow you to store your own blood.

I think Tyler's book provides some insights on blood storage. Some things (re-infusions in the near future) could be managed personally, and Lance had a fridge for that. He also had motoman, obviously, for transport. But, you have to extract, clean, store, recover yourself, remove from storage, prepare for reinfusion, etc. That is harder.

One reason that Operacion Puerto was successful was that Fuentes co-opted the Spanish medical system and stored blood bags with them.

Dave.

The micro dosing I agree but with blood I'm not talking 500/1000ml of blood because iirc Ashenden's thoughts were it's far less - 1-300ml. He also said that EPO is used to mask the micro transfusion. With regular re infusing/drawing much shorter than puerto so the blood isn't out of the system that long enough to need more accomplices that can talk, or be listened to by the law. Or mix up the blood bags and give the wrong one like Tyler had! If your accomplice and you are the only ones involved seems to me that's an ideal way to blood dope and not get caught.

It's just finding the right small dual temperature cooling unit that is perfect; one for Edgar and the other blood for that volume of matter and it shouldn't require much power to run it either. Something that runs on 12 volts, battery backup powered even for a short time and could be pretty much powered anywhere. I'm a bit of a thermodynamics geek with my job so I reckon it's possible for such a product to be out there. Vaccines need small portable low power storage in remote areas for example, So if there is an ideal small cooler out there wouldn't it be interesting for the law to find out who has bought them?

 

[Walkman]

A comment by a rider a few weeks ago about how the passport could be beaten got me thinking.

Because micro dosing on Edgar, a small refrigerator/freezer for the intact blood and a centrifuge to measure your levels and micro transfuse accordingly seems pretty attainable for a rider with an accomplice. All without the direct complicit involvement of his team. Sticking blood in a vein such as the foot could be much easier to hide/disguise than the arm.

Separating the blood into plasma etc for longer storage requires medical technicians and facilities and much more importantly more that know about them doping. A 2 person doping 'cell' seems a far better idea not to get busted in this day and age of cycling we're in now.

Could a lot of these so called team programs be down to the riders themselves - then the only criticism of these teams is which teams turns a blind eye to which riders who DIY their own blood?

If it's been asked before forgive me for being a parrot - I'm still not even a quarter way through jv's thread!

Didn't Rasmussen and some austrian XC-skiers share a blood centrifuge? Or was it Khol?

 

[Gavandope]

Didn't Rasmussen and some austrian XC-skiers share a blood centrifuge? Or was it Khol?

I have no idea mate. Thing is the crucial part to a DIY blood doping duo wouldn't be the spinner but just one thing. The small, portable, discreet, medical grade 12v powered cooler with battery backup ideally to keep that blood at that particular Celsius/Fahrenheit no matter what.

Aside from the Edgar the rest is just chemistry, biology, maths, some tables to reference blood levels with performance, a watch and basic easily obtained medical supplies. And your assistant has had training for blood, online courses via video are everywhere. Though non dehp mini blood bags such as for infants a bit trickier perhaps but they too may be traceable and rare enough as to who has purchased them.


This sounds controversial for some but I don't believe team doping is rampant - on the other hand I am convinced that rider doping is far more prevalent. Too big you get caught.

Therefore if they are hard to be caught you find who is buying the products they use to not be caught. The rarer the better obviously or by their spare parts.

It would be a fantastic reference to anti doping authorities and law enforcement agencies worldwide if the clinic compiles a shopping list of portable coolers at least. I have too much of jv to read and am about to go on holiday besides and you lot have far more energy than I have to get rid of these bloody cheats. Types and eBay shops selling bags, centrifuges would also be useful.

I have hopefully patented this method to catch these cheating red celled bar stewards. After having three beers too.

To catch a doper you have to be able think like a ex-doper and an ex-cheat who despises them for still being that way. Redemption feels good

Cheque in post please wada lol

 

[Oldman]

What you suggest is likely the norm in practice with the team referring riders to technicians. The risk of storing is not that big a deal. The micro-dosing is where team knowledge is more likely, particularly for GTs. The staff see these riders and as likely rely on updated medical and training records for their stars so it would take purposeful ignorance not to know when a particular performance was a standout.
The practice as you've generally defined is a risk-management arrangement for the teams and, as we've seen with most riders; their biggest fear is not getting results/paid. Fear of self-poisoning seems lower down on the scale for some of them. As for getting caught many pros have confirmed only stupid riders test positive.

 

[Gavandope]

What you suggest is likely the norm in practice with the team referring riders to technicians. The risk of storing is not that big a deal. The micro-dosing is where team knowledge is more likely, particularly for GTs. The staff see these riders and as likely rely on updated medical and training records for their stars so it would take purposeful ignorance not to know when a particular performance was a standout.
The practice as you've generally defined is a risk-management arrangement for the teams and, as we've seen with most riders; their biggest fear is not getting results/paid. Fear of self-poisoning seems lower down on the scale for some of them. As for getting caught many pros have confirmed only stupid riders test positive.

Technicians are more risky though and complicit in a conspiracy. More mouths, emails. Perhaps initial consultation or indirect contact maybe. But nevertheless the safest way for a rider to dope is with a friend and the team to turn a blind eye and maybe have a quiet word, or leaders maybe even suspecting their own rider has doped and yet powerless to do anything cos they are winning and have no proof.

Thing is even these clever riders need certain rare products, likely purchased themselves cos laundering bikes is off the menu... The folded envelopes of cash from the crits, hmmmm

 

[Dear Wiggo]

A comment by a rider a few weeks ago about how the passport could be beaten got me thinking.

Because micro dosing on Edgar, a small refrigerator/freezer for the intact blood and a centrifuge to measure your levels and micro transfuse accordingly seems pretty attainable for a rider with an accomplice. All without the direct complicit involvement of his team.

In 2006 / 2007, Jonathon Vaughters created a biologica paramter monitoring system, called something I cannot remember now.

Anyway, it was basically the Biological passport but being run by the team.

And, according to JV, he spends $500k on that same internal testing thing now.

So you don't need to know your riders are doping. If you created a BP system that was then adopted by the UCI, well.

Too many dots for me.

 

[Gavandope]

In 2006 / 2007, Jonathon Vaughters created a biologica paramter monitoring system, called something I cannot remember now.

Anyway, it was basically the Biological passport but being run by the team.

And, according to JV, he spends $500k on that same internal testing thing now.

So you don't need to know your riders are doping. If you created a BP system that was then adopted by the UCI, well.

Too many dots for me.

I wonder if jv is 100% confident his system can't be broken, maybe he had to refine it as time went on. As an IT science nerd I would imagine smaller more frequent blood work with ever smaller doses of Edgar and blood would be harder to detect if the periods are shorter periods than what the rider is screened for. And that's on a team that you know won't turn a blind eye to it.

It's a war between white and black doped hats and the dark side is winning. So if the whites can't catch up go after their products. Their cooler for starters. If Ashenden posts here or anyone knows his email I am sure he will be delighted to provide reasonably good figures for blood volume, number of bags etc to accurately gauge how big the cooling volume of the fridge would be for one, maybe two riders and perhaps even a stab at the cycle itself. I am no chemist never mind biologist but nuclear physics tells me all about quantities, decay, emissions, glowing and half lives. Micro doping with blood, Edgar and dope detection all look remarkably similar theories to me.

These dots seem ever clearer to me by the minute, hopefully some of you lot too..

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I wonder if jv is 100% confident his system can't be broken, maybe he had to refine it as time went on. As an IT science nerd I would imagine smaller more frequent blood work with ever smaller doses of Edgar and blood would be harder to detect if the periods are shorter periods than what the rider is screened for. And that's on a team that you know won't turn a blind eye to it.

There's a study, done by Ashenden, can't link it have to scoot, but it shows you can microdose EPO up to the equivalent of blood bags worth of blood, and not trip the passport.

Body does BV expansion to help manage the Hgb increase, which netts you increase in Hgb mass, but sustained Hct - or minor movements.

IV micro dosing actually works out more effective, physiologically, than the earlier subcutaneous mega doses.

 

[Gavandope]

There's a study, done by Ashenden, can't link it have to scoot, but it shows you can microdose EPO up to the equivalent of blood bags worth of blood, and not trip the passport.

Body does BV expansion to help manage the Hgb increase, which netts you increase in Hgb mass, but sustained Hct - or minor movements.

IV micro dosing actually works out more effective, physiologically, than the earlier subcutaneous mega doses.

More factual fuel to the fire I didn't know bits of. The more with less you dose it's harder to get caught. Even when tested thoroughly the increased frequency goes below their detectable threshold for even those teams that actually care.

I've read the nyvelocity one and maybe another if you have more technical stuff he has done to read the merrier.

The manner and circumstances of him walking out of the anti doping movement suggests to me that if Ashenden wouldn't be delighted to provide some hypothetical figures for a size of fridge and micro, pico dosing program even using the maths he already has he may as well keep walking away from cycling. A gutless convict message coming from an equally bald Pom if he doesn't should seal the deal. Perhaps floyd could give him a hand.

One of you has to have his email address surely?

 

[Nederick]

Not sure if it's this episode? (I haven't listened to this one)
http://competitorradio.competitor.com/2006/11/74dr-mac-larsen/

I've been told there is an episode in this series where someone talks about self blood doping and just how easy it was.

 

[Gavandope]

Not sure if it's this episode? (I haven't listened to this one)
http://competitorradio.competitor.com/2006/11/74dr-mac-larsen/

I've been told there is an episode in this series where someone talks about self blood doping and just how easy it was.

I will listen to that with much interest on my holiday. As an outsider and new to detailed discussions about doping in cycling and accusing teams of doping programs it seems to me that the evidence seems to fit far better that it's the riders who are the 'primary' dopers with only teams instead offering unofficial support, turning a blind eye to it, if at all. Possibly some truly want to be clean teams dismayed at their suspicions of riders they employ.

The days of the organised doping omerta have been gone for a while IMO, the next omerta that needs to be smashed is the one for a rider and friend to DIY dope. These methods targeting crucial products they use is really no different to what the FBI would use if a Muslim convert bought a shed load of Ammomium Nitrate fertiliser and/or hydrogen peroxide on their credit card.

This seems to me to be a perfect place with the perfect enthusiasts about getting rid of this cancer in the sport. I hope there's a few of you who could expand a bit more energy into giving cycling a hand in getting rid of it instead of he did this, they did that...

 

[DirtyWorks]

This sounds controversial for some but I don't believe team doping is rampant - on the other hand I am convinced that rider doping is far more prevalent. Too big you get caught.

Are you saying that it's the federation enables the doping? I think you are.

The "lone athlete dopes" story needs to take a break until the sports federations, at minimum, run anti-doping more transparently. We don't even know the aggregate number of non-positive, suspicious, and positive bio-passport results.

 

[Gavandope]

Are you saying that it's the federation enables the doping? I think you are.

The "lone athlete dopes" story needs to take a break until the sports federations, at minimum, run anti-doping more transparently. We don't even know the aggregate number of non-positive, suspicious, and positive bio-passport results.

Lol - if only!

Not lone - impossible but with an accomplice the opposite. Thing is that no matter how often they draw the blood be it weekly, monthly, quarterly or whatever it wouldn't be too difficult for a micro-nano dosing program of Edgar and their own blood transfused at short intervals to pretty much defeat these controls.

No wonder only stupid riders get caught - cos once the rider has calibrated what dosages and transfusion/re-infusion rates to their blood levels over a set period of exertion and time they become the masters of their own blood. With their watt meters in their cranks they know when to go slow or not too fast either. Its seems to me judging from Ashenden's comments (I read the article again earlier) that they can pretty much manipulate any reading as long as the periods of testing is outside the type of EPO's half life they inject and it decays within the body. With smaller amounts you are probably looking at testing periods within 12-48 hours to even detect it, the lesser to be sure of a genuine positive.

I could replace the word drugs with elements in the Thorium and Uranium decay chain and replace positive with gamma and beta particles, the principles are so so similar. Though there would be no chemistry or biology without physics.

These results everyone is wanting to see from the various bodies; federations, uci, wada, usada is a very wide average - dealing in numbers when the clever doped duo can manipulate in decimal points so only the idiots get busted. Like trying to fish for frog spawn with a landing net. You guys will be still thoroughly angry at seeing the obvious in races as a consequence while they cheat the clean green doping light.

Finding buyers of infant DEHP free blood bags and coolers seems to me to be a better way to get the smoking gun proof of them unless you want to draw blood from riders twice a day, every day. A day and night blood sucking they will fight to the bitter end and will cost a bomb, only a riders dope tax could realistically cover the huge cost of defeating their methods. Though detectable tests for all DEHP alternatives which they would need to store the blood in would be a great weapon to fight them.

No wonder these clever dopers think they can't be caught. I've joined that Bald Aussie's club but I reckon they can by targeting the products they need to cheat with impunity.

I really do think that if a pro nano doper, most likely from some of the usual suspects plastered all over this board was read this whole thread they would know that someone in the clinic now knows what they know. Not even an avid cycling fan, only a ex roid head who got told a lot about PED's over 20 years ago but is pig sick of seeing these cheats still cheat in one of my favourite sports, one of ordeal, pain and dedication. Though I'm only really that much of an avid fan of Richard Feynman, who also loved to solve mysteries and puzzles. The pleasure of finding things out.