Why so little emphasis on George Hincapie?

[PosterBill]

To me he has always been the domino that could bring down Armstrong almost regardless what evidence turns up. Yet the press has pretty much left Hincapie alone. Let's state the obvious: Hincapie is the only guy that can't be discredited by Armstrong. If they don't disclose another bit of evidence but get George to talk then I will be satisfied to know the truth

 

[cleanmarine]

Because George is not the Don.

 

[PosterBill]

No he's not the don, he's the capo.

 

[cleanmarine]

No he's not the don, he's the capo.

I still think there is a Master of Puppets a level above Lance who is the true Capo.

 

[Oldman]

I still think there is a Master of Puppets a level above Lance who is the true Capo.

Yes and with the GJ closing down the trail to him grows a little colder. Unless Mr. W's fingerprints are on money transfers related to USADA's allegations of a drug network within the team; he'll never be exposed. Most of the other named parties are probably more afraid of him than they are of USADA. Now the IRS on the other hand...

 

[Oldman]

It's possible George will be compelled to come clean. He's never been chatty with the press so I don't think you'd see him on 60 minutes. He may even want to tell his side but his financial future is not as secure as LA.

 

[mastersracer]

it's pretty obvious Hincapie is one of the main witnesses. His withdrawal from Olympic consideration confirms that. He's been around Armstrong since they were amateurs, has been on his teams longer than anyone else, and has nothing to gain and everything to lose from testifying, so will be very hard to discredit. AND won a mountain stage at the Tour, so in retrospect clear he was on the program at one time too.

 

[cleanmarine]

I believe the Master of Puppets is someone in management. Let's face it Lance is not that intelligent. He may be crafty like a rat but he needed a strategic thinker who could plot the long range moves. Who ever this is owns Lance. They will never be brought down. Got close in the GJ but political connections severed the rope.

 

[VeloCity]

Hincapie's testimony definitely would carry a lot of weight but I think Bruyneel is the key - if he talks, that's it, it's over. There's simply no way Armstrong could wiggle out of that.

 

[filipo]

Golly gee these two posters seem to have sprung up out of nowhere, and already they're having conversations with each other. It's so heartening to see a couple of noobz feel so at ease among us.

Poster Bill and cleanmarine, welcome to the forum!

 

[tofino]

George talks or talked

If george talks its over, no Brunyeel needed. Armstrong really can't fight Hincapie as a discredited rider (ie previously caught doping) like he's done to Landis and Tyler.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

It seems clear to me that George has already talked.

We know the USADA case is based on evidence gathered in the federal case, and that George talked to the feds in that case (but not to 60 Minutes - which he is quick to remind us).

It's hard to imagine that he wasn't one of the "more than 10 U.S. riders" contacted by the USADA, all of whom reportedly cooperated about Postal/Discovery doping.

I mean, we know at least Floyd implicated George, and that George is not one of the 5. He must have talked.

 

[PosterBill]

I am thinking along those very lines nifety-

But I became kind of hung up on a couple of issues.

Under the federal investigation Hincapie had some major legal issues to deal with if choose not to testify. I wondered if this investigation could have the teeth to make Hincapie testify. I think most people believed this would be Hincapie's last year. The guy is ancient and he's probably tired of dealing with the media and questions surrounding investigations. Hincapie doesn't strike me as the type of guy that will worry about his legacy. I thought he might decide to plead the 5th.

What's the worst punishment that a guy already retiring from the sport can receive? His legacy is going to go down either way. There must of been some big "stick" that I am unaware of. Maybe the huge legal costs or the impending doom of looking around and seeing yourself with Johan...I don't know.

He does a remarkable job of staying off the radar and I bet he is one of the 10. If it weren't for those nickers I bet ole george would steal away to some island in exile.

 

[ElChingon]

It seems clear to me that George has already talked.

We know the USADA case is based on evidence gathered in the federal case, and that George talked to the feds in that case (but not to 60 Minutes - which he is quick to remind us).

It's hard to imagine that he wasn't one of the "more than 10 U.S. riders" contacted by the USADA, all of whom reportedly cooperated about Postal/Discovery doping.

I mean, we know at least Floyd implicated George, and that George is not one of the 5. He must have talked.

Yea, he talked. He had no choice, he's just laying as low as he can.

 

[DirtyWorks]

I believe the Master of Puppets is someone in management. Let's face it Lance is not that intelligent. He may be crafty like a rat but he needed a strategic thinker who could plot the long range moves. Who ever this is owns Lance. They will never be brought down. Got close in the GJ but political connections severed the rope.

My estimation is it's not just one guy and not coordinated as much as everyone involved has substantial interests in keeping several complimentary myths alive that generate money for each party. IOC, UCI, Tailwind. They did well.

You want to talk about free passes, the UCI has three doping positives they suppressed. Contador, Armstrong TdS and Armstrong 2010. No one is asking the UCI anything. Zero!

If memory serves me, Hincapie goes waaaaay back to Carmichael/Wenzel doping USAC's national team as Juniors too. Go 'merica!

 

[Oldman]

My estimation is it's not just one guy and not coordinated as much as everyone involved has substantial interests in keeping several complimentary myths alive that generate money for each party. IOC, UCI, Tailwind. They did well.

You want to talk about free passes, the UCI has three doping positives they suppressed. Contador, Armstrong TdS and Armstrong 2010. No one is asking the UCI anything. Zero!

If memory serves me, Hincapie goes waaaaay back to Carmichael/Wenzel doping USAC's national team as Juniors too. Go 'merica!

Memory serves you correctly. It was a response to seeing more doctors than riders with the Italian junior team at Worlds several times. That and having Russian espoirs drop in on US stage races and dominate them. Think Berzin at 18 years old....

 

[cleanmarine]

Golly gee these two posters seem to have sprung up out of nowhere, and already they're having conversations with each other. It's so heartening to see a couple of noobz feel so at ease among us.

Poster Bill and cleanmarine, welcome to the forum!

Hey Mr "joined in 2009" Filipo. You have no idea how long I have been around. You may bow now.

 

[Pazuzu]

Hincapie's testimony definitely would carry a lot of weight but I think Bruyneel is the key - if he talks, that's it, it's over. There's simply no way Armstrong could wiggle out of that.

Bull's eye.

 

[Polish]

The "Tyler" 60 Minutes show confused a lot of people. Thinking "White Lunch Bag" was the Bruyneel era (wrong) and that George testified in front of the Grand Jury (wrong again). George had to make a statement soon after the show "whoa whoa whoa people - I did NOT testify to the GJ".

George talked outside of the GJ - to former Top Ped Cop Novitzsky who was instrumental in the Balco case btw. Does current Top Ped Cop Tygart have info of that discussion?

Former Top Ped Cop Novitzsky told us correctly that doping is not against the law. There are however, many more important laws that protect a citizen's rights. Breaking any of THOSE Laws is serious. Very serious. Jail time serious.

Anyway, back to Big George, Mister George, 17/17/"17" George. Does the USADA have access to that discussion George had with the former top ped cop? And then was was George "convinced", given "USADA Immunity", whatever that means, if he promised to testify against Lance?

But even if Big George WAS offered a sweet deal, whatever that means, to testify against Lance - I would expect George to say "whoa whoa whoa people - I am NOT testifying against Lance".

Have not heard him say it though. That is not good. Not good for a lot of reasons.

 

[BotanyBay]

To me he has always been the domino that could bring down Armstrong almost regardless what evidence turns up. Yet the press has pretty much left Hincapie alone. Let's state the obvious: Hincapie is the only guy that can't be discredited by Armstrong. If they don't disclose another bit of evidence but get George to talk then I will be satisfied to know the truth

George has always been the great white hope. First we waited for the big classics win, and now we're waiting for him to tell us that he was honest all these years and that Lance was really not a champion. And he'd probably rather just be George.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

The "Tyler" 60 Minutes show confused a lot of people. Thinking "White Lunch Bag" was the Bruyneel era (wrong) and that George testified in front of the Grand Jury (wrong again). George had to make a statement soon after the show "whoa whoa whoa people - I did NOT testify to the GJ".

George talked outside of the GJ - to former Top Ped Cop Novitzsky who was instrumental in the Balco case btw. Does current Top Ped Cop Tygart have info of that discussion?

Former Top Ped Cop Novitzsky told us correctly that doping is not against the law. There are however, many more important laws that protect a citizen's rights. Breaking any of THOSE Laws is serious. Very serious. Jail time serious.

Anyway, back to Big George, Mister George, 17/17/"17" George. Does the USADA have access to that discussion George had with the former top ped cop? And then was was George "convinced", given "USADA Immunity", whatever that means, if he promised to testify against Lance?

But even if Big George WAS offered a sweet deal, whatever that means, to testify against Lance - I would expect George to say "whoa whoa whoa people - I am NOT testifying against Lance".

Have not heard him say it though. That is not good. Not good for a lot of reasons.

 

[Berzin]

The "Tyler" 60 Minutes show confused a lot of people. Thinking "White Lunch Bag" was the Bruyneel era (wrong) and that George testified in front of the Grand Jury (wrong again). George had to make a statement soon after the show "whoa whoa whoa people - I did NOT testify to the GJ".

Amidst all of your useless trolling, you need to get called out if you are going to straight-up lie.

You know well enough Hincapie never said this. There is no link anywhere on the internet that proves what you say is true, because all Hincapie said was he never spoke to anyone at "60 Minutes".

You're a liar.

 

[Polish]

Amidst all of your useless trolling, you need to get called out if you are going to straight-up lie.

You know well enough Hincapie never said this. There is no link anywhere on the internet that proves what you say is true, because all Hincapie said was he never spoke to anyone at "60 Minutes".

You're a liar.

You are right Bezin, I was mistaken.
Sorry, for whatever that is worth.

It was a confusing time - to this day I do not think it is clear how 60 Minutes got the info they broadcast. It was, however, the straw that broke the camels back back then. Lance filed his Leak Motion soon after the 60 Minute "mystery source" broadcast. And things became awfully quiet after that motion.

But my original point remains - did the USADA receive any George Info illegally.
Did they tamper or intimidate with any of the sweet deals and immunity? May be ok to do that following USADA star chamber rules - but it it ok legally in the USA?

Maybe the star chamber antics of the USADA will lead to reform in anti-doping procedures. That would be a silver lining.

 

[zigmeister]

it's pretty obvious Hincapie is one of the main witnesses. His withdrawal from Olympic consideration confirms that. He's been around Armstrong since they were amateurs, has been on his teams longer than anyone else, and has nothing to gain and everything to lose from testifying, so will be very hard to discredit. AND won a mountain stage at the Tour, so in retrospect clear he was on the program at one time too.

Who knows. This kind of backs what you are saying:

According to USA Cycling criteria, "All athletes must be in good standing with USAC, UCI (International Cycling Union) and the United States Anti-Doping Agency at the time of nomination."

http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/06/16/2141402/us-mens-olympic-road-racing-team.html


Then again, George hasn't been so hot this year. Horner has the power data to prove how well he is doing, although he isn't a road race guy the team needs. They have Duggan and Tejay to help Tyler, assuming a field sprint will happen.

But...maybe I don't know the course profile, because there are 9 laps of "Box Hill" WTH that is? I need a profile view. If so, Timmy Duggan showed he can ride with the best up the climbs consistently. Tejay, not so much so far. George, no way in heck...Horner, yes...so, I can see why they would drop George, only makes sense.

 

[mastersracer]

Who knows.

The USADA letter states that every other U.S. rider they contacted agreed to meet with them and to fully and truthfully describe their involvement in doping and all doping by others. USADA would obviously contact Hincapie, since he has had the longest professional ties to Armstrong of any rider. If Hincapie didn't cooperate, then he would likely be implicated and charged...he also withdrew his name from Olympic consideration.