Why Tenerife?

[Dear Wiggo]

Clearly boll0cks.

11 out of 18 pro teams are signed up to MPCC.

And none of them, to my knowledge, claim to be transparent.

 

[King Boonen]

Out of interest, how do we know they have only been tested once in eight visits?

 

[Franklin]

Spanish are soft on doping. Fuentes case proves that. Since they have all the blood bags and are doing nothing!

Considering the owners of the bloodbags did nothing criminal at that time and the evidence lies in the hands of the judicial system I wonder what you thought would happen?

I know it doesn't fly with your personal sense of justice and need to see people hang, but that's how a justice system works. They won't release data in these cases as that's a breach of privacy. Speed offenders aren't named and shamed, so it's quite a leap towards naming and shaming people who did not break the law.

How many times have they tested their top cyclists in 2013 or this year?

How often did the DUtch/English/Germans/Italians/Fill in the country test?

Got figures to back Spanish cracking down on doping?

Obviously you are joking. Puerto, Galgo. Show me the German/Dutch/Belgian/fill in other country legal action. Show me how Human Plasma was handled.

The facts are indeed that Spain acts much stronger than most other countries. Glad to point out these easily verifiable things, but I'm sure you already know these things .

Considering Spain is bankrupt, i doubt they are going to be spending money trying to catch sports stars cheating.

Ah those nasty Spainiards. At least dutch Belkin riders are checked constantly.... oh wait... hmm... they don't. So actually singling out Spain flies straight in the face of facts.

The Italians are trying to do something, but the bureaucracy in Italy means the task is very hard.

Jep, Italy and Spain are the only countres where the judicial arm is interested.

Is Spain perfect? hell no. There's a reason a lot of crap happened/happens there. But nobody can deny Italy and Spain are the only ones who at least start criminal research. All other countries just ignore it.

So how bad Spain might be, the cold hard facts show it's a lot more pro-active in it's follow-up than the Netherlands or Belgium to name just two stalwart cycling nations.

 

[stutue]

And none of them, to my knowledge, claim to be transparent.

Have you asked them?

 

[Catwhoorg]

Why have Sky who spend a lot of time there only been tested once in 8 visits to the Island?

Which to be fair to Walsh was the way he discussed it.

Ellingworth expressed his disappointment about the level of testing in Walshes book (and probably the April piece I never read that)

 

[Benotti69]

Considering the owners of the bloodbags did nothing criminal at that time and the evidence lies in the hands of the judicial system I wonder what you thought would happen?

So the Spanish are not hard on doping because if they were they would do something to ensure the details of those using Fuentes came out

I know it doesn't fly with your personal sense of justice and need to see people hang, but that's how a justice system works. They won't release data in these cases as that's a breach of privacy. Speed offenders aren't named and shamed, so it's quite a leap towards naming and shaming people who did not break the law.

Speeding and doping are non related. Doping is fraud, sporting fraud.

How often did the DUtch/English/Germans/Italians/Fill in the country test?

You brought up the Spanish. I posted the Italians as at least trying. I dont think any of the countries do much about doping when it comes to their own sporting stars.

Obviously you are joking. Puerto, Galgo. Show me the German/Dutch/Belgian/fill in other country legal action. Show me how Human Plasma was handled.

So you have no figures to show how the Spanish are cracking down on doping, but start on about other countries after stating the SPanish are cracking down on doping. Hmmmm

The facts are indeed that Spain acts much stronger than most other countries. Glad to point out these easily verifiable things, but I'm sure you already know these things .

No links to show the Spanish cracking down on doping. I can point ot he recent Italian investigations. Whether the courts get their act together to make any thing of it is another question, but at least there are investigations. Ricco caught buying dope also shows the Italians are not sleeping.

Ah those nasty Spainiards. At least dutch Belkin riders are checked constantly.... oh wait... hmm... they don't. So actually singling out Spain flies straight in the face of facts.

So your argument has been lost you ahve been reduced tto draggin in Belkin riders who have not been tested, just like every other nation, not interested in catching doping, but the Spanish are!!!!

Jep, Italy and Spain are the only countres where the judicial arm is interested.

Is Spain perfect? hell no. There's a reason a lot of crap happened/happens there. But nobody can deny Italy and Spain are the only ones who at least start criminal research. All other countries just ignore it.

I never said anyone was perfect, in fact far from it. But Spain are not doing anything about catching doping.

So how bad Spain might be, the cold hard facts show it's a lot more pro-active in it's follow-up than the Netherlands or Belgium to name just two stalwart cycling nations.

Never claimed otherwise so introducing this line of thought shows your original post to be waste of pixel space.

 

[Benotti69]

Which to be fair to Walsh was the way he discussed it.

Ellingworth expressed his disappointment about the level of testing in Walshes book (and probably the April piece I never read that)

Sky could test themselves and release the data in their endless crusade to be seen as the clean and transparent team! and put all those other teams to shame........

Ellingworth idolises Simpson but thinks Virenque is scum. Says it all.

 

[neineinei]

It's not up to Sky when they are tested, I don't see how Sky's PR spiel is at all relevant here. I'm unsure whose authority they fall under outside competition (UCI? UKADA? individual NADO's depending on rider nationality? Country where residings NADO?) but they can decide to test them whenever they want, you can't blame Sky for not being tested. There are twitter pictures, blogs and stories every time they are there, including before they arrive. It's not like the testers don't know they are going.

Like it or not, Tenerife is about as perfect a place for altitude training as you can get. And it certainly has better access links and is closer to Europe than many of the other possible places, probably even better than some mainland sites.

Anything that can be used for doping should be banned, it's irrelevant whether they can test for it or not. That's a different thread though.

UCI can test them.
WADA can test them.
In connection with the Olympics the IOC can test them.
The NADO of the country in which the rider holds his licence can test him.
The NADO of the country of which the rider is a national can test him.
The NADO of the country of which the rider is a resident can test him.
The NADO of the country of the sports organisation of which the rider is a member can test him.
The NADO of any country where the rider is present can test him.

UCI anti-doping rules (Chapter 1. 7)

They can all test them. If they can afford it. And someone must see to that there is enough tests taken, and at the right times, for the ABP to be working.

 

[lllludo]

Is Spain perfect? hell no. There's a reason a lot of crap happened/happens there. But nobody can deny Italy and Spain are the only ones who at least start criminal research. All other countries just ignore it.

I don't know about other countries but OCLAESP is a division of French police doing the criminal research. They used to be very efficient (they dismantled Cofidis and other doping rings 10 years ago) but are less visible nowadays maybe as an effect of the economic situation in France.

Have you asked them?

Most of the MPCC teams are not as vocal as SKy when it comes to doping. Usually they just say we are antidoping and as a prooof for that we are MPCC member.

Out of interest, how do we know they have only been tested once in eight visits?

I think Walsh quoted Ellingworth in his book about SKY. It's obvious it costs more to organize testing on the Teide than in Nice, on the French riviera. It's also more difficult to organize a surprise control if you're located here.
On the other hand you'd have a doping expert to carry out the controls on the neighbour island : Eufemiano FUENTES !
Eufe know lives in Las Palmas, as the Canarias islands are the home of his family, and he is a medical advisor for the local football club U.D. Las Palmas

 

[King Boonen]

I think Walsh quoted Ellingworth in his book about SKY. It's obvious it costs more to organize testing on the Teide than in Nice, on the French riviera. It's also more difficult to organize a surprise control if you're located here.
On the other hand you'd have a doping expert to carry out the controls on the neighbour island : Eufemiano FUENTES !
Eufe know lives in Las Palmas, as the Canarias islands are the home of his family, and he is a medical advisor for the local football club U.D. Las Palmas

Thanks, so it was actually Sky who released it then.

Why would it be more difficult to organise a surprise control? And why would it be more expensive?

Oh, and Nice is hardly a good comparison.

 

[King Boonen]

UCI can test them.
WADA can test them.
In connection with the Olympics the IOC can test them.
The NADO of the country in which the rider holds his licence can test him.
The NADO of the country of which the rider is a national can test him.
The NADO of the country of which the rider is a resident can test him.
The NADO of the country of the sports organisation of which the rider is a member can test him.
The NADO of any country where the rider is present can test him.

UCI anti-doping rules (Chapter 1. 7)

They can all test them. If they can afford it. And someone must see to that there is enough tests taken, and at the right times, for the ABP to be working.

Thanks. So more than enough people who could test if they wanted.

Can't remember the thread or link, but it turns out that there are more than enough tests occuring for the ABP to work, it just uses too wide a margin for error to really be very applicable.

 

[Franklin]

So the Spanish are not hard on doping because if they were they would do something to ensure the details of those using Fuentes came out

Considering that would be illegal I'm amazed you think that's a good idea. I personally would prefer my countries judicial arm to follow the law.

So you have no figures to show how the Spanish are cracking down on doping, but start on about other countries after stating the SPanish are cracking down on doping. Hmmmm

Except I did have examples, namely Galgo and Puerto. As there's no comparable judicial acyion in those other countries this is no discussion. Spain does more than the Netherlands

No links to show the Spanish cracking down on doping.

Puerto.
Galgo.

Oops?

So your argument has been lost you ahve been reduced tto draggin in Belkin riders who have not been tested, just like every other nation, not interested in catching doping, but the Spanish are!!!!

Considering I have the facts on my side I'd say that's quite correct.

I never said anyone was perfect, in fact far from it. But Spain are not doing anything about catching doping.

Except those pesky facts?

Sorry Benotti, check my sig. I use prefer facts and in this case they are rather clear. Spains judicial system has done more than most other countries. So doing nothing is definitely false.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Can't remember the thread or link, but it turns out that there are more than enough tests occuring for the ABP to work, it just uses too wide a margin for error to really be very applicable.

A poster claimed this. Poster in question was stating opinion.

The average OOC tests is 3 / rider.

Someone earlier today mentioned a rider tweeting in April they had not been tested OOC.

3 / rider worked out to once every 90 days or so. IMO that is nowhere near enough OOC testing, given the doping is more likely to be occurring OOC.

 

[King Boonen]

A poster claimed this. Poster in question was stating opinion.

The average OOC tests is 3 / rider.

Someone earlier today mentioned a rider tweeting in April they had not been tested OOC.

3 / rider worked out to once every 90 days or so. IMO that is nowhere near enough OOC testing, given the doping is more likely to be occurring OOC.

I seem to remember reading an Ashenden paper that said you needed ABP tests only every couple of months for it to be effective. I'll try and find the thread.

 

[King Boonen]

This thread:

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=10878&page=10

One a month. And I reviewed the paper.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I seem to remember reading an Ashenden paper that said you needed ABP tests only every couple of months for it to be effective. I'll try and find the thread.

Effective; satisfying the requirements for anti-doping theatre.

Not quite my definition of effective, which involves catching people doping.

 

[King Boonen]

Effective; satisfying the requirements for anti-doping theatre.

Not quite my definition of effective, which involves catching people doping.

That's more due to how the software works for the ABP than the number of tests taken.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

That's more due to how the software works for the ABP than the number of tests taken.

No it's the system. If you're on test, hgh and EPO to boost some blood no OOC for another 90 days is ridiculous for catching that rider preparing in that way.

 

[King Boonen]

No it's the system. If you're on test, hgh and EPO to boost some blood no OOC for another 90 days is ridiculous for catching that rider preparing in that way.

Well you can argue that with Ashenden. He says there are enough tests being done so the ABP will work, but the way the software works means it is pretty easy to cheat.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Well you can argue that with Ashenden. He says there are enough tests being done so the ABP will work,

Really?

And you can't imagine any scenario where the testing could be circumvented regardless of the software that stores and analyses the results of testing?

*scratches head*

BP is anti-doping theatre.

 

[Benotti69]

Well you can argue that with Ashenden. He says there are enough tests being done so the ABP will work, but the way the software works means it is pretty easy to cheat.

So if it easy to cheat the test is useless except for those with low IQs or the testers get lucky.

Yet the BP is lauded as the test that made the peloton cleanER! So how can clean sky beat teams that can cheat pretty easily?

They cant, they cheat too.

 

[King Boonen]

So if it easy to cheat the test is useless except for those with low IQs or the testers get lucky.

Yet the BP is lauded as the test that made the peloton cleanER! So how can clean sky beat teams that can cheat pretty easily?

They cant, they cheat too.

It's all about Sky with you isn't it?


It has made the peloton cleaner. I'm not going to rehash how and why, you're perfecty aware of that. It has not made the peloton clean, and there are different levels of cheating the test, but it has limited the level of doping people can go to. as long as it is run properly.

 

[King Boonen]

Really?

And you can't imagine any scenario where the testing could be circumvented regardless of the software that stores and analyses the results of testing?

*scratches head*

BP is anti-doping theatre.

Don't beat about the bush, state the scenario. I'm not here to play guessing games.

 

[oldcrank]

Happy Birthday Chris. Lovely location for a party,
great that so many of your mates showed up to
help you celebrate.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Don't beat about the bush, state the scenario. I'm not here to play guessing games.

If you have a month of no testing, you could withdraw blood and then chill for a month until parameters are back to normal. In fact you could do that 3 times in a row, on average, before your next OOC test.

eg: Quintana was gone for months, no racing, then came back and finished 2nd at the Tour. No OOC testing in Colombia, but according to Ashenden that doesn't matter coz hey, limited testing is fine.

Now add in test & Hgh recovery drugs for when you're training hard. The BP provides a front, where we no longer have to test for specific drugs because we don't even have to test at all - the BP will catch all these dopers. Wait, we're only testing them 3 x OOC on average. 50 days of racing and 300 days of training. 3 tests in 300 days.

There's multiple layers of problems with this scenario.

Sorry but it seems obvious to me. Perhaps I am missing something?