Why Tenerife?

[thehog]

Wiggins stayed at the well known parador at the top of Teide. It was no big secret, indeed my parents had lunch there while Sky were out on a training ride. Wiggins showed up on his bike as they were pulling out of the car park.

Of course they did. And what was the name of this hotel?

 

[LugHugger]

Of course they did. And what was the name of this hotel?

Parador Hotel Canadas del Teide

 

[thehog]

Parador Hotel Canadas del Teide

Very good. Obviously your parents didn't see any doping going on in the brief moment they saw him.

Now where is everyone? Did the world end?

http://bencawthrablog.visualsociety.com/2012/06/27/training-with-bradley-wiggins-in-tenerife-spain/

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Most go to the beaches, not the altitute which is reserved for those studying the volcanic earth and atheltes trying to convince the public of the myth of training at altitude and racing at sea level make you win.

The Tour includes a fair few sections at 2000m and higher above sea level, so even if training at altitude does nothing for your sea-level performance, it will improve your performance at altitude.

Slightly off-topic, but Paula Radcliffe lives and trains in the Pyrenees, circa 1400m above sea level. She was always dubious as to the benefits of altitude training per se, other than the fact that to run at your normal rhythm at such an altitude, one simply has to work harder. The benefit thus accrued to her from being forced to train harder rather than from training at altitude.

Whether this theory is true is another matter!

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Who is actually responsible for undertaking out of competition testing on non-Spanish registered riders in Tenerife?

 

[LugHugger]

Very good. Obviously your parents didn't see any doping going on in the brief moment they saw him.

Now where is everyone? Did the world end?

http://bencawthrablog.visualsociety.com/2012/06/27/training-with-bradley-wiggins-in-tenerife-spain/

Obviously Have you been to this part of Tenerife? Yes? Do you remember how many people were casually strolling along the crater road at any time of the day? According to you, because there are no crowds at 2300m on the side of an extinct mountain it's prime territory for organising a pre Tour doping programme. At a public hotel. Where their presence was well known weeks in advance. Makes perfect sense to me.

 

[hiero2]

It's warm all year round. It has plenty top quality hotels. It has 15+ miles of road over 2000m. It has many direct flights there from all over Europe. It has good sports facilites particularly at the University. Holiday islands tend to have less traffic.

On the downside, half a dozen people on the internet will think you are doping. If you were a clean rider, would the pros beat the con?

As to your conspiracy idea - 13 million people go through Tenerife airports every year. No-one can keep track of that. And it's not remote. One hour from Lisbon, less than two from Madrid.

. . .Or is it as simple as being several hours flight from Europe and paying someone off at the airports to check the passenger lists on a daily basis for anyone flying in who works for anti doping?

Socrates

Your last paragraph pretty much explains it .

Well - it explains why YOU are suspicious! It does not explain all the "why"!

The international planes fly in to one airport from one direction. You always know your window.

Hmmm, sounds good. But, doesn't this assume that the teams will have a list of ALL the people who work in anti-doping? And that they can compare their tip-off list to the list of anti-doping personnel? They'd have to hire somebody full time just to take care of that. And how would they get around getting passenger manifests from every airline? Wouldn't that involve a lot of people? Maybe they could get somebody in customs who collects all the manifests to share them? But certainly the customs person couldn't be doing the filtering themselves - again, it would be a full-time job? Wouldn't that get awfully obvious?

This. Because it was used by dopers in the past, and everyone knows it, then it *must* be being used now by Sky for the same reason. 'Cos they're that stupid.

Dr Fuentes is a local born Spanish Canarian. Dr. Ferrari is a regular visitor to Tenerife.

If you want to lay down your EPO base you choose a location not frequented by (Spanish) drug testers on secondment by the UCI or WADA or any other drug testing authority. Throw in high altitude roads and you have a red herring as the distraction from the real purpose.

Teams went to the Spanish Canaries en masse.

Except for USPS/Discovery. Armstrong went only with Ferrari while the non descripts stayed in Girona. The only exception was Floyd Landis on one occasion when he was being groomed as heir apparent and of course that squeeze at the time who sang a song about a car wash.

Fuentes and Ferrari go there. So? Does that mean that any rider who goes to Italy is automatically suspect? Or, to narrow it down, isn't Verona where Ferrari has his main office? Would that mean that any rider who went to Verona was automatically suspect? Aren't you also saying that high altitude is of no benefit? If high altitude IS beneficial, wouldn't I want my riders to use it, whether they were doping or not? How is it then a red herring? Doesn't make sense.

This.

There aren't too many places within Europe with training conditions this good. The Alps comes to mind first but then there is bad weather much of the time. (By the way altitude training got more popular again since the development of EPO tests.)

I think infering that a team is doping because it they do training camps on Tenerife is unsound. Actually I know because my team was clean and we used to do that (even though I personally never got to go there, unfortunately).

Einstein, I agree. However, we do know some things now, based on all the replies. We know some valid reasons that some of the people are suspicious - but we also know who are the perpetual cynics.

Last I heard, altitude training was not a myth, and recently researchers have added warm weather training to those things that can naturally increase your O2 vectors. Tenerife has both, and, those are among the stated reasons by Sky for using Tenerife.

That doesn't mean I am not suspicious. But, the arguments that Tenerife is a symptom haven't gotten very far in convincing me. I am left with these reasons for suspicion:
* a series of magnificent performances during this past year, by several riders on Sky.
* Use of a trainer with some suspicion of doping association in his past.
* And, last, Wiggo's dodgy attitude, and seeming change of heart from a couple of years ago.

It's pretty weak as evidence.

 

[thehog]

Obviously Have you been to this part of Tenerife? Yes? Do you remember how many people were casually strolling along the crater road at any time of the day? According to you, because there are no crowds at 2300m on the side of an extinct mountain it's prime territory for organising a pre Tour doping programme. At a public hotel. Where their presence was well known weeks in advance. Makes perfect sense to me.

Exactly my point Dr. Ferrari.

And yes I have been there. Several times.

 

[hiero2]

Very good. Obviously your parents didn't see any doping going on in the brief moment they saw him.

Now where is everyone? Did the world end?

http://bencawthrablog.visualsociety.com/2012/06/27/training-with-bradley-wiggins-in-tenerife-spain/

Hog - you don't happen to know where we could actually read the article to go with the photos? Sure would be nice. Good photo-shoot.

 

[Benotti69]

The Tour includes a fair few sections at 2000m and higher above sea level, so even if training at altitude does nothing for your sea-level performance, it will improve your performance at altitude.

Slightly off-topic, but Paula Radcliffe lives and trains in the Pyrenees, circa 1400m above sea level. She was always dubious as to the benefits of altitude training per se, other than the fact that to run at your normal rhythm at such an altitude, one simply has to work harder. The benefit thus accrued to her from being forced to train harder rather than from training at altitude.

Whether this theory is true is another matter!

Training at altitude is myth. A convenient excuse for the dopers.

 

[oldcrank]

Fabian Cancallera owns property on Gran Canaria,
which is a 45 min. flight from Tenerife or a ferry
ride if one chooses. Does anyone know if he is
paying someone to watch the airports and ferry
terminals for anti-doping personnel? Darryl, surely
you must know.

 

[Benotti69]

http://news.discovery.com/human/altitude-training-may-be-bad-for-you.html

So why go there? Hmmm to relax and get a tan or transfuse a couple of CCs.

Armstrong got prior notification of lots of his ooc tests. how? why would it not be possible for others? maybe the testers are taking brown envelopes, they are sadly human.

 

[LugHugger]

Exactly my point Dr. Ferrari.

And yes I have been there. Several times.

Guess the sarcasm was lost on you. So DB sends his leader and climbing domestics to a public hotel where their booking was known on the island at least 3 weeks before their arrival and runs the gauntlet of the passport vampires in the lead up to one of their key targets for the season? Sounds like a genius plan to me.

 

[hiero2]

Training at altitude is myth. A convenient excuse for the dopers.

Hmmmm. It would seem that science does not agree with you. It finds limits to the value of high altitude training, but repeatedly finds that it does have value. However, one of the limits is the time of benefit - seems to max out somewhere between 2 and 4 weeks, or at least for the blood changes. So, winter training in Tenerife would not be expected to assist in the TdF in July. At least not the natural blood changes part.

Abstracts from NIH/NLM:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21110125
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15895317
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19203133

And that is far from everything. That was just a half hour search and review exercise.

Here is a good wrap-up, but notice the author is looking at performance enhancement for soccer/footballers. http://theconversation.edu.au/mondays-medical-myth-altitude-training-improves-overall-sporting-performance-8196

 

[Dr. Maserati]

http://news.discovery.com/human/altitude-training-may-be-bad-for-you.html

So why go there? Hmmm to relax and get a tan or transfuse a couple of CCs.

Armstrong got prior notification of lots of his ooc tests. how? why would it not be possible for others? maybe the testers are taking brown envelopes, they are sadly human.

You don't cycle, do you?

If LA was getting prior notice of OOC tests (& he was) then why would it matter where he was?
It's an ideal place if you want to put in tough training on long climbs, on quiet(ish) roads and not have to worry about the weather.

 

[hiero2]

Training at altitude is myth. A convenient excuse for the dopers.

Hmmmm. It would seem that science does not agree with you. It finds limits to the value of high altitude training, but repeatedly finds that it does have value. However, one of the limits is the time of benefit - seems to max out somewhere between 2 and 4 weeks, or at least for the blood changes. So, winter training in Tenerife would not be expected to assist in the TdF in July. At least not the natural blood changes part.

Abstracts from NIH/NLM:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21110125
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15895317
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19203133

Here is a good wrap-up, but notice the author is looking at performance enhancement for soccer/footballers. http://theconversation.edu.au/mondays-medical-myth-altitude-training-improves-overall-sporting-performance-8196


And that is far from everything. That was just a half hour search and review exercise.

 

[hiero2]

http://news.discovery.com/human/altitude-training-may-be-bad-for-you.html

So why go there? Hmmm to relax and get a tan or transfuse a couple of CCs.

Armstrong got prior notification of lots of his ooc tests. how? why would it not be possible for others? maybe the testers are taking brown envelopes, they are sadly human.

It seems to me the author is taking an extreme response to the report. The reports I listed show some of the same things - but mostly for athletes who are trying to build muscle, not endurance. And notice two things - the study group in the Discovery article was a very specific target group - who may not naturally be "responders". In the NIH study recap, amongst those abstracts I linked, the lack of studies to define who is a responder, and who is not, is notable.

You can't accurately say that altitude training is a myth. You can accurately say that it may have limited value. It is not a wonder-bullet. But for climbing training in the winter, where else would these guys go? All the climbs in the TdF and the Giro are probably absolutely nasty in the winter. How much training benefit do you get while swaddled in five layers of winter coverup, compared to riding in Tenerife?

As to the brown envelopes - THAT, in my mind, is one of the most likely to be true suspicions.

 

[thehog]

Guess the sarcasm was lost on you. So DB sends his leader and climbing domestics to a public hotel where their booking was known on the island at least 3 weeks before their arrival and runs the gauntlet of the passport vampires in the lead up to one of their key targets for the season? Sounds like a genius plan to me.

What are you talking about. Wiggins announced his trip to Tenerife in the press. Everyone knew about it.

They don't need to avoid the passport tests. Besides those tests only occur about 3 times a year if that.

And of course doping occurs in the lobby of a public hotel.

When Armstrong used to use T'reef Ferreri would meet him in a campervan on the climbs to take lactate tests.

But of course your parents now work in anti-doping so they know best.

 

[LugHugger]

What are you talking about. Wiggins announced his trip to Tenerife in the press. Everyone knew about it.

They don't need to avoid the passport tests. Besides those tests only occur about 3 times a year if that.

And of course doping occurs in the lobby of a public hotel.

When Armstrong used to use T'reef Ferreri would meet him in a campervan on the climbs to take lactate tests.

But of course your parents now work in anti-doping so they know best.

What the hell are you talking about? Do you think anybody believes that Sky were doping on Tenerife other that Clinic crazies like you? And nice heap shot at my parents, you scrote

 

[DirtyWorks]

Guess the sarcasm was lost on you. So DB sends his leader and climbing domestics to a public hotel where their booking was known on the island at least 3 weeks before their arrival and runs the gauntlet of the passport vampires in the lead up to one of their key targets for the season? Sounds like a genius plan to me.

I can play that game too. There's this race called the Tour de France where public hotels are booked months in advance with riders, and many riders have to subject themselves to the passport vampires, and so on... And yet, there were multiple doping scandals. In fact, medical waste was found in the trash at one point...

It doesn't disprove they go to Tenerife to simply ride. It doesn't prove doping either. But, this is Pro Cycling we're talking about.

How about this question, can someone please post Tenerife visits to podium places both prior to, and soon after the visit. And, yes, I know the deniers will have plenty of ammo anyway, but I think it's an interesting question that I don't have time to research. If I'm right the first results are weeks after Tenerife so the rider is gauranteed a negative, but has all the benefits of the doping cycle.

 

[thehog]

What the hell are you talking about? Do you think anybody believes that Sky were doping on Tenerife other that Clinic crazies like you? And nice heap shot at my parents, you scrote

You're the one who brought it up as some form of evidence of non doping. Not me.

But of course the Clinic crazies think Armstrong doped as well and look how wrong they were on that one. You know calling EPO butter and getting the wives to assist with their programs. That's just crazy talk. All wrong.

Crazy.

 

[bpickford]

You're the one who brought it up as some form of evidence of non doping. Not me.

But of course the Clinic crazies think Armstrong doped as well and look how wrong they were on that one. You know calling EPO butter and getting the wives to assist with their programs. That's just crazy talk. All wrong.

Crazy.

Well if you think everyone who wins a major race is doping, which seems to be the general consensus on here, you will obviously be right some of the time.

 

[Arnout]

You're the one who brought it up as some form of evidence of non doping. Not me.

But of course the Clinic crazies think Armstrong doped as well and look how wrong they were on that one. You know calling EPO butter and getting the wives to assist with their programs. That's just crazy talk. All wrong.

Crazy.

If you read properly, all that has been said here is that Tenerife isn't necessarily a place you go to to dope, there are plenty of other reasons.

Yes, cyclist might (and I'm pretty sure they do) dope when they're there. But the argument that Tenerife is a kingdom far away is quite simply flawed. After all, according to the clinic it is very easy to dope, so why take the trouble to go somewhere far away?

 

[Benotti69]

Well if you think everyone who wins a major race is doping, which seems to be the general consensus on here, you will obviously be right some of the time.

It was the general reality in bike racing in case you didn't notice.

Now when the Garmin and Sky come along all is rosey in the garden again, just because they say it is. Like we have heard lots of times before.

The ability to shed body fat till there is nealy nothing without losing power is oh so natrual that no one thought of it before. Some us are not fooled.

Who is Sky's biggest fan? Pat McQuaid that's who. Like a leech to teamGB during the Olympics.

 

[bpickford]

It was the general reality in bike racing in case you didn't notice.

Now when the Garmin and Sky come along all is rosey in the garden again, just because they say it is. Like we have heard lots of times before.

The ability to shed body fat till there is nealy nothing without losing power is oh so natrual that no one thought of it before. Some us are not fooled.

Who is Sky's biggest fan? Pat McQuaid that's who. Like a leech to teamGB during the Olympics.

I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt, until there is some genuine evidence against them. I don't call most of what is written on this forum genuine evidence.