DirtyWorks said:
Point taken re hotels. I just don't think that Sky are that stupid or desperate on Tenerife. I do however think that Sky's performance at the Tour was extraordinary. Extraordinary.
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Point taken re hotels. I just don't think that Sky are that stupid or desperate on Tenerife. I do however think that Sky's performance at the Tour was extraordinary. Extraordinary.
Arnout said:
Quite. But Hog clearly could not follow or could not understand the line of discussion.
Arnout said:
Teams moved en masse from France to Spain after Festina 98 when the French clamped down on doping.
US Postal claimed their move was motivated only by "tax reasons".
If Spain was more doping friendly then a Spanish territory out in the Atlantic that required costly travel and accommodation expenditure for any drug testing authority would be nirvana.
Here is a Youtube clip uploaded of Astana in March 2010 showing 11 team riders in training at Tenerife - 4 months in advance of the TdF.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2C3ldO5qrKM
As a former competitive rider exposed both to altitude training and mechanical simulated altitude training I am aware of the following:
1. Only 60% of athletes respond to altitude training. 100% of patients respond to injections of EPO to stimulate HCT levels. Statistically 5 of those 11 riders would be wasting their time altitude training
2. Any benefits of altitude training, which are debatable, are very quickly lost. Only altitude training 4 months before the big event would be an exercise in futility. Blood doping and EPO microdosing after the big hit are the answer.
It's 25 degrees in Tenerife in March.
I'm not denying doping. Far from it. I just don't think it is a primary reason why teams go to Tenerife.
I'm not denying doping. Far from it. I just don't think it is a primary reason why teams go to Tenerife.
Zam_Olyas said:
Very interesting - but still not the final word, and it still doesn't make altitude benefits a myth. It DOES reinforce that this is not a dead-certain thing.
It also DOES reinforce one of my personal beliefs: i.e. that one of the reasons Tri-geeks tend to be so strong is they innately have a superior internal motivation to train compared to ordinary cyclists (I can't speak on this at the pro level, but I think one could probably extrapolate). From the article:
It has been noted elsewhere that not all riders respond to EPO either. Otherwise, I agree - the altitude benefits don't hold up for 4 months. At least one of the papers I quoted earlier says only 2 weeks. Another says 4 weeks. Not 4 months.Velodude said:
However, I think this review has been useful for me. In my mind it validates and reinforces the potential value for the LEGAL reasoning Sky stated for going to Tenerife. I.e. group training, climbing training, team attitude and cooperation. Zam brings in this study that finds a significant improvement based on attitude alone. They also believe they are finding that altitude training affect is a placebo affect - based on belief. I find that interesting, but it isn't the final word - but I find it particularly interesting and valuable for pinning down some measure improvement based on attitude improvement (getting better because you believe you are getting better!).
The simple explanation (KISS, remember) is that Tenerife is nice in the winter, like you and others have pointed out, when the continent is not. So you can get some quality climbing in, and you can do it with the team. That aligns team attitude and team cohesion. If you are a good trainer and manager of people, you would have found ways to improve the teams self-belief while you are at it. If you got part of that because of a placebo affect, it doesn't make the improvement any less real.
thehog
BANNED
The key to altitude training is it offsets the use of EPO with naturally produced cells.
Get yourself a tent along with 2 to 3 trips to Tenerife and you've beaten the passport.
Simple.
Get yourself a tent along with 2 to 3 trips to Tenerife and you've beaten the passport.
Simple.
thehog
BANNED
hiero2 said:Face it, hog - you're a cynic. Nothing will ever lower your radar.
A realist not a cynic.
Not my fault I keep getting proven right.
thehog
BANNED
thehog said:
What do you mean "offsets the use of EPO with naturally produced cells"? EPO produces more cells. 1+1=2 not 0.
thehog
BANNED
function said:
Hamilton said Ferrari advised Armstrong to sleep in an altitude tent and microdose EPO at "800 units a night" to beat the EPO test, which compared ratios of natural and synthetic EPO. "The altitude tent would create more natural EPO, helping to balance out any synthetic EPO that might linger."
You see, you said "offsets", which is not technically accurate. "Dilutes" would be better. "Offsets" is closer to "replaces".thehog said:
Btw - a realist? Nah, man, you are a cynic! Dyed in the wool, true blue, never to be convinced - you are a cynic. That does not mean you aren't right sometimes. Even a dead clock is right twice a day, right!?
Cheers, buddy, keep on cynicizing.
(edited later - I AM teasing thehog - but I also believe he is a cynic! I added this to make sure everybody knows I wrote this with a smile on my face! thehog has valued opinions around here, imho.)
thehog said:
How much $ and prestige does the guy who finished 30th on bread n butter earn?
(and Its cruel of Lance to refer to it as butter too btw, but there is LA for you)
How much does 1 flight & 4 nights accom cost?
Probably nothing when its institutionalised
Then its: How much sponsorship and how many employees are lost when we produce middle of the pack race results next season?
Why Tenerife?
Quiet, less chance of accidents, gradient, altitude, weather, privacy, all fo the above
Oh, and less chance of regimes being interupted
When you need that 30 minute window, its nice to be in the positive frame of mind
hiero2 said:
This is pro cycling. History of the sport is that they dope. The people in the sport are all ex dopers. Show me an ex clean rider in the sport who has a position of power that can affect change.
The majority if not all of teams are all dyed in the wool doping experts. They have implemented systems to monitor their doping to avoid positives and keep riders levels safe from biopassport bans.
The UCI has not changed. The ASO has not changed its position. The testing is still a joke. The riders are still silent on doping. The DS are still silent on doping.
Keep on believing in miracles.
I don't know where I saw it, but somebody else here will. I recently saw a quote attributed to Fignon. He said before 1990 riders did extraordinary performances, and doping was - I forget the word he used, but he meant basically inconsequential. Then, after 1990, it was all reversed. The rider efforts were inconsequential, and the doping value was extraordinary.
Yup, riders doping has been around since the day after the first cycle race. No questions there. So, actually, I pretty much agree with you here. We are seeing a major change in the culture of the peloton, and this cultural shift has been underway for a long time now. I think this summer we have really turned a corner, and the inertia has shifted. Maybe I AM optimistic, but I see signs that continue to make me hopeful!
Yup, riders doping has been around since the day after the first cycle race. No questions there. So, actually, I pretty much agree with you here. We are seeing a major change in the culture of the peloton, and this cultural shift has been underway for a long time now. I think this summer we have really turned a corner, and the inertia has shifted. Maybe I AM optimistic, but I see signs that continue to make me hopeful!
hiero2 said:
I dont see signs that are hopeful.
I saw a team dominate the week long stage races of their choice to then dominate the TdF with such ease they made everyone else look like rookie pros, similar to dark era Tours.
I just saw 2 of the sports biggest Spanish dopers finish 1&2 at La Vuelta.
I read what Ashenden said abut the dark era having a new guise.
I have not seen a swell of riders coming out and backing the investigation by USADA, nor have they come out and stated that the UCI use of licence funds being used t sue a journalist good use of cycling money.
I hear the usual cleaner sport, but that has always been said after a doping scandal.
I have not heard of a new test for plasticisers nor have we heard of anti-doping being an independent body from the oh so corrupt UCI.
The latest i hear is a breakaway league with Bruyneel and UCI getting a cut.
That does not sound like a bright future for clean cycling which ever way you care to spin it.
Arnout said:
You really are playing the thick obtuse card aren't you? Maybe it's just this thread. The answer is so blindingly obvious it is ridiculous.
Simple. Far far away implies the people far far away won't recognise you. If there are one or two who do, are they going to be the variety who are involved in anti-doping? No, no, no...that WOULD NEVER happen now would it? It's not like JV was on this forum saying what is actually spent of anti-doping is a joke. Small budget...yes they have all the money in the world to travel on planes ALL the time! Travel away out of the reach of the feds/fuzz you remove one element who will catch you doping. Thus adding in the cost and inconvenience of going after you. WADA or whomever want to catch you, they have to follow you. Random testing...well the odds of that happening decrease.
But why stop there hey genius? It's not like an isolated island has many access points. Thus if you're in, is it that hard to imagine you can get a heads up on someone coming your way? Nah that is asking too much isn't it?
And then there is the real pearler...people's mums and dads will catch you doping...like one real smart guy proposed above. To that poster...please DO NOT BREED. Anyone could shoot up in front of your folks and they would not notice with those rose lenses on their noggins. No, the most obvious reason is that when Michele Ferrari is trailing behind you on a mountain on a vespa or scooter, with stop watch in hand, you don't have some pesky Italian conti director driving past going "WTF, Pellizotti and Nibali have F%$KING MICHELE FERRARI behind them!" Get the point? Do that in Spain or Italy and you'll get noticed. No matter how hard you try and hide it. Go to Tenerife or some remote place like Armstrong always did...how many people could name every cyclist by face alone? How about their doping doctors?
Sky go to Tenerife to lower the probability of them being interrupted doping. That is it. Less frequent (if any) Passport tests, less out of competition scrutiny, you can do whatever you want with full confidence it'll work, you won't be interrupted and with the Doctor of your choice hitting your veins up with all manner of performance increasing drugs you could ever dream of taking. If people here are too daft to draw the parallel between Sky not going to Tenerife and being pure crap one season and then the next ONLY a select few go and ALL of them become world beaters...yeah, stay out of the Clinic. Go home, crawl under your bed covers and live oblivious. Why? You're the type of people who believe in fairy tales. In coincidence. That everything is fine and dandy. Truth be told, you best mate is probably balls deep in your missus in your bed and you will never ever notice. That's how oblivious and devoid of simple observational skills the deniers around the Clinic come off as. You should all thank your lucky stars the guys you dislike in the Clinic have scruples and morals because you are ripe for being conned and taken for everything you have every waking second of the day.
Galic Ho said:You really are playing the thick obtuse card aren't you? Maybe it's just this thread. The answer is so blindingly obvious it is ridiculous.
Simple. Far far away implies the people far far away won't recognise you. If there are one or two who do, are they going to be the variety who are involved in anti-doping? No, no, no...that WOULD NEVER happen now would it? It's not like JV was on this forum saying what is actually spent of anti-doping is a joke. Small budget...yes they have all the money in the world to travel on planes ALL the time! Travel away out of the reach of the feds/fuzz you remove one element who will catch you doping. Thus adding in the cost and inconvenience of going after you. WADA or whomever want to catch you, they have to follow you. Random testing...well the odds of that happening decrease.
But why stop there hey genius? It's not like an isolated island has many access points. Thus if you're in, is it that hard to imagine you can get a heads up on someone coming your way? Nah that is asking too much isn't it?
No, the most obvious reason is that when Michele Ferrari is trailing behind you on a mountain on a vespa or scooter, with stop watch in hand, you don't have some pesky Italian conti director driving past going "WTF, Pellizotti and Nibali have F%$KING MICHELE FERRARI behind them!" Get the point? Do that in Spain or Italy and you'll get noticed. No matter how hard you try and hide it. Go to Tenerife or some remote place like Armstrong always did...how many people could name every cyclist by face alone? How about their doping doctors?
Sky go to Tenerife to lower the probability of them being interrupted doping. That is it. Less frequent (if any) Passport tests, less out of competition scrutiny, you can do whatever you want with full confidence it'll work, you won't be interrupted and with the Doctor of your choice hitting your veins up with all manner of performance increasing drugs you could ever dream of taking. If people here are too daft to draw the parallel between Sky not going to Tenerife and being pure crap one season and then the next ONLY a select few go and ALL of them become world beaters...yeah, stay out of the Clinic. Go home, crawl under your bed covers and live oblivious. Why? You're the type of people who believe in fairy tales. In coincidence. That everything is fine and dandy. Truth be told, you best mate is probably balls deep in your missus in your bed and you will never ever notice. That's how oblivious and devoid of simple observational skills the deniers around the Clinic come off as. You should all thank your lucky stars the guys you dislike in the Clinic have scruples and morals because you are ripe for being conned and taken for everything you have every waking second of the day.
Perhaps you could show us where I stated that my folks were on an anti-doping crusade? It was a simple eye witness sighting refuting the assertion that Sky were shacked up out of eyesight of even the most casual observers. The hotel's location was described as being the reserve of only geologists and dopers which was a gross misrepresentation and inaccurate.
I'll let my daughter know your thoughts, big man.
How does the tester-dodging work in practice?
In particular:
- Which organisation actually sends the testers? Is it WADA, UCI, the rider's federation or the federation where the rider actually is at the time? Or someone else?
- How do the teams/riders identify the testers when they arrive? Do they slip airport staff a back-hander to let them know when certain people arrive? Or do they have a spotter at the airpoints to identify the testers themselves? Both of these rely on the teams knowing the identities of all the testers, and in the latter case being able to recognise them. Are there so few testers in the world that this is feasible?
- Or is the spotting and tipping off done at the point of departure?
- etc.
The aspect of this "Tenerife is only bad" angle that doesn't make much sense is that if Sky have the influence that they are alleged to have ie buying a Wiggo friendly route for the Tour and getting the UCI "onside" , why bother with going to Tenerife to dodge the testers?
There are many unkowns. One thing that is known, however, is that Galic Ho is an arrogant, offensive ****, who needs to either sober up or grow up (or both.)
In particular:
- Which organisation actually sends the testers? Is it WADA, UCI, the rider's federation or the federation where the rider actually is at the time? Or someone else?
- How do the teams/riders identify the testers when they arrive? Do they slip airport staff a back-hander to let them know when certain people arrive? Or do they have a spotter at the airpoints to identify the testers themselves? Both of these rely on the teams knowing the identities of all the testers, and in the latter case being able to recognise them. Are there so few testers in the world that this is feasible?
- Or is the spotting and tipping off done at the point of departure?
- etc.
The aspect of this "Tenerife is only bad" angle that doesn't make much sense is that if Sky have the influence that they are alleged to have ie buying a Wiggo friendly route for the Tour and getting the UCI "onside" , why bother with going to Tenerife to dodge the testers?
There are many unkowns. One thing that is known, however, is that Galic Ho is an arrogant, offensive ****, who needs to either sober up or grow up (or both.)
Galic Ho said:You really are playing the thick obtuse card aren't you? Maybe it's just this thread. The answer is so blindingly obvious it is ridiculous.
Simple. Far far away implies the people far far away won't recognise you. If there are one or two who do, are they going to be the variety who are involved in anti-doping? No, no, no...that WOULD NEVER happen now would it? It's not like JV was on this forum saying what is actually spent of anti-doping is a joke. Small budget...yes they have all the money in the world to travel on planes ALL the time! Travel away out of the reach of the feds/fuzz you remove one element who will catch you doping. Thus adding in the cost and inconvenience of going after you. WADA or whomever want to catch you, they have to follow you. Random testing...well the odds of that happening decrease.
But why stop there hey genius? It's not like an isolated island has many access points. Thus if you're in, is it that hard to imagine you can get a heads up on someone coming your way? Nah that is asking too much isn't it?
No, the most obvious reason is that when Michele Ferrari is trailing behind you on a mountain on a vespa or scooter, with stop watch in hand, you don't have some pesky Italian conti director driving past going "WTF, Pellizotti and Nibali have F%$KING MICHELE FERRARI behind them!" Get the point? Do that in Spain or Italy and you'll get noticed. No matter how hard you try and hide it. Go to Tenerife or some remote place like Armstrong always did...how many people could name every cyclist by face alone? How about their doping doctors?
Sky go to Tenerife to lower the probability of them being interrupted doping. That is it. Less frequent (if any) Passport tests, less out of competition scrutiny, you can do whatever you want with full confidence it'll work, you won't be interrupted and with the Doctor of your choice hitting your veins up with all manner of performance increasing drugs you could ever dream of taking. If people here are too daft to draw the parallel between Sky not going to Tenerife and being pure crap one season and then the next ONLY a select few go and ALL of them become world beaters...yeah, stay out of the Clinic. Go home, crawl under your bed covers and live oblivious. Why? You're the type of people who believe in fairy tales. In coincidence. That everything is fine and dandy. Truth be told, you best mate is probably balls deep in your missus in your bed and you will never ever notice. That's how oblivious and devoid of simple observational skills the deniers around the Clinic come off as. You should all thank your lucky stars the guys you dislike in the Clinic have scruples and morals because you are ripe for being conned and taken for everything you have every waking second of the day.
I was sceptical when Susan said that clinic regulars deter other people from coming here. Not anymore.
You're so full of yourself that even Pat McQuaid is jealous. So full that you didn't bother to read any of my posts properly. As such, I'm not going to do anything with this post other than to report it, as my answers are way back in the thread.
Have a nice day.
FWIW, a pro can dope just as easily training in remote alpine passes in places like France, Italy, Spain, Switzerland, USA and Colombia as they can in Tenerife. Training in Tenerife isn't an indicator, performances (like Sky this year) and attitudes to scandals and the media (like Wiggins' outburst) are.
Why is it so naive to think that riders want to practice riding up big mountains, somewhere that has big mountains? Tenerife makes sense as a training destination in the early part of the year and if what Tyler Hamilton has said is still true, the tests are easy enough to beat anywhere.
Why is it so naive to think that riders want to practice riding up big mountains, somewhere that has big mountains? Tenerife makes sense as a training destination in the early part of the year and if what Tyler Hamilton has said is still true, the tests are easy enough to beat anywhere.
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