Why Tenerife?

[wrinklyvet]

Re: Re:

Exactly, pastronef. South Africa is not a serious suggestion if there are the same objections to it. I don't say it's not a good place to train but there is at least equal cycnicism about it.

I am not asking for jokes and smears. I await a better genuine serious suggestion from those who decry Tenerife.

Where else should European teams go when continental Europe is cold? Where is the approved place that they haven't found, that is accessible and will not be open to identical criticisms?

Where did they go before needing to get away from testers?

If i remember correctly Sean Kelly spent the off season at home on Southern Ireland then went to the Skiing camp with the team then started racing. But then he didn't need to bag blood or beat OOC tests.

The weather in Europe is cold and wet, but when did that stop people from training? SA or Tenerife is the avoidance of testing and the need to 'train' at altitude to explain away blood passport anomalies......doesn't take a genius to figure that

If people say Tenerife and South Africa are both off limits for various reasons it really is up to them to suggest somewhere better, not to say, "Don't do it at all."

Just imagine, if you will, that you are responsible for a team that does want a training camp in warmer climes with suitable terrain off-season. Never mind that Sean Kelly trained at home. Can you think of a place, as I asked, that would not attract your opprobrium? No, obviously not.

What is wrong with training at home? Maybe if Wiggins trained at home on wet roads he wouldn't be such a sissy on descents?

Maybe if I was the team owner and riders wanted the sun, they could pay for it themselves. South of Italy is warm 11months out of 12. Sicily?

You are avoiding the doping issue. The whole raison d'aitre to go to Tenerife is the 'altitude' to claim nullification of strange blood values, inc lack of testing and SA where non SA riders are not tested by SA anti doping. But then that is too obvious and the thread is about why they go to Tenerife....but obfuscation is where you are at!

I am not into obfuscation. I agree I don't share your views but it fascinates me to know if there is an acceptable venue. That's all I asked and it's you (and others) who have found a straight answer difficult. I believe it is legitimate to want to train as a team, for team bonding, for team experience and to improve training quality.

I ask you to consider what I asked independently of any views you may have about doping. Just pretend there is no ulterior motive - the team just wants to go and train in a legitimate way. i know you don't accept that premise but put your views on one side just for the moment.

Where to go? You say southern Italy would be fine. Excellent, now we know. I expect similar observations would be made though. I am afraid I don't have personal knowledge of the climate and terrain. I guess it would not be quite the same, and could be cold for longer, but if it's suitable why don't they go? Is southern Italy well supplied with drug testers so as to make it more legitimate than Tenerife?

 

[vedrafjord]

Re: Re:

If i remember correctly Sean Kelly spent the off season at home on Southern Ireland then went to the Skiing camp with the team then started racing. But then he didn't need to bag blood or beat OOC tests.

The weather in Europe is cold and wet, but when did that stop people from training? SA or Tenerife is the avoidance of testing and the need to 'train' at altitude to explain away blood passport anomalies......doesn't take a genius to figure that

Kelly was training in winter for the classics - so being battered by Irish cold/wind/rain is the perfect training for that. It's similar to Kristoff nowadays, who trains in Norway and loves bad conditions.

That's not great training for GC in the Tour though. The Comeraghs climbs top out at cat 2, in fact there are only two climbs in Ireland higher than cat 2 (Mt Leinster and Kippure). Pretty much all of northern Europe is flat, except the Scandinavian mountains, and they're not usable for cycling in winter.

Also heat acclimatisation is often vital for the Tour and Vuelta - indeed it may have decided the Tour last year, and Ireland is completely useless for that. And stick thin climbers will probably end up getting sick more in the cold and the damp.

More broadly, in Kelly's time, they relaxed more over winter and then raced all year. Someone doing that now will get beaten in the big events by others who are peaking for those events.

I'm not saying they're not doping at training camps - I'm saying that places like Tenerife offer significant non-doping advantages if you want to climb well at the TdF.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

If i remember correctly Sean Kelly spent the off season at home on Southern Ireland then went to the Skiing camp with the team then started racing. But then he didn't need to bag blood or beat OOC tests.

The weather in Europe is cold and wet, but when did that stop people from training? SA or Tenerife is the avoidance of testing and the need to 'train' at altitude to explain away blood passport anomalies......doesn't take a genius to figure that

Kelly was training in winter for the classics - so being battered by Irish cold/wind/rain is the perfect training for that. It's similar to Kristoff nowadays, who trains in Norway and loves bad conditions.

That's not great training for GC in the Tour though. The Comeraghs climbs top out at cat 2, in fact there are only two climbs in Ireland higher than cat 2 (Mt Leinster and Kippure). Pretty much all of northern Europe is flat, except the Scandinavian mountains, and they're not usable for cycling in winter.

Also heat acclimatisation is often vital for the Tour and Vuelta - indeed it may have decided the Tour last year, and Ireland is completely useless for that. And stick thin climbers will probably end up getting sick more in the cold and the damp.

More broadly, in Kelly's time, they relaxed more over winter and then raced all year. Someone doing that now will get beaten in the big events by others who are peaking for those events.

I'm not saying they're not doping at training camps - I'm saying that places like Tenerife offer significant non-doping advantages if you want to climb well at the TdF.

Kelly didn't relax over winter. That is why he won PN 7 times.

I dont think Tenerife offers the heat of France in July at any time of the year or the Spanish Vuelta heat, so that dont fly. No heat acclimatisation going on in Tenerife that is for sure. Robert Millar trained where? Scotland? France? I doubt he was in Tenerife or SA.

Climbing well on one mountain in Tenerife offers a tiny to no advantage. Doping on Tenerife or SA on the other hand offers loads.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Re: Re:

What is wrong with training at home? Maybe if Wiggins trained at home on wet roads he wouldn't be such a sissy on descents?

Maybe if I was the team owner and riders wanted the sun, they could pay for it themselves. South of Italy is warm 11months out of 12. Sicily?

You are avoiding the doping issue. The whole raison d'aitre to go to Tenerife is the 'altitude' to claim nullification of strange blood values, inc lack of testing and SA where non SA riders are not tested by SA anti doping. But then that is too obvious and the thread is about why they go to Tenerife....but obfuscation is where you are at!

Maybe he would get hit by a guy in a white van again.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Exactly, pastronef. South Africa is not a serious suggestion if there are the same objections to it. I don't say it's not a good place to train but there is at least equal cycnicism about it.

I am not asking for jokes and smears. I await a better genuine serious suggestion from those who decry Tenerife.

Where else should European teams go when continental Europe is cold? Where is the approved place that they haven't found, that is accessible and will not be open to identical criticisms?

Where did they go before needing to get away from testers?

If i remember correctly Sean Kelly spent the off season at home on Southern Ireland then went to the Skiing camp with the team then started racing. But then he didn't need to bag blood or beat OOC tests.

The weather in Europe is cold and wet, but when did that stop people from training? SA or Tenerife is the avoidance of testing and the need to 'train' at altitude to explain away blood passport anomalies......doesn't take a genius to figure that

This point of Tenerife is not get away from testers. There is little point in testing on Tenerife, there is little point in testing anyone at altitude for oxygen vector drugs or methods. There is too much variance with the up/down of altitude that any type of passport reading is nullified. Riders can effectively wipe out a half year of passport data by going back and forth from races using this method.

The UCI is not going to waste its money testing anyone on Tenerife because the tests would not be counted towards the baseline. Riders know this, Froome knows this but it won’t stop them pretending they are anti-doping by telling the UCI to do more testing.

Tenerife is also warm and mountainous so with all those aspects rolled into one, it makes a perfect place to train.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

What is wrong with training at home? Maybe if Wiggins trained at home on wet roads he wouldn't be such a sissy on descents?

Maybe if I was the team owner and riders wanted the sun, they could pay for it themselves. South of Italy is warm 11months out of 12. Sicily?

You are avoiding the doping issue. The whole raison d'aitre to go to Tenerife is the 'altitude' to claim nullification of strange blood values, inc lack of testing and SA where non SA riders are not tested by SA anti doping. But then that is too obvious and the thread is about why they go to Tenerife....but obfuscation is where you are at!

Maybe he would get hit by a guy in a white van again.

It was a woman driving the van. But hey it could be worse, he could train in southern Spain and get run over by tourists!!!!!!

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...
one could decide not to train in Tenerife, that's doable, stay home and not go there
but in Girona there are 3-4 service course, many teams there, even small conti teams, not just Cannondale or Lotto-Jumbo, and many pro-conti and conti riders from all nationalities live there, scandinavians, belgians, americans, aussies, british, dutch. and train together. airport in near town, little traffic-free roads, good weather. many women riders live there too.
riders like Jetse Bol, Chad Haga, Van Emden, Vermeulen live there, and they not actually smashing Lance's records on local climbs

the situation you sketch is relatively recent. Ironically it was Garmin who triggered a revival of the city as cycling hotspot.

so because USPS were there, nooone should live there?

i didn't say that.
Teams with a strong explicit antidoping stance should not be based in girona and do altitude camps in tenerife.
we all know what happened in those places and why. All the infrastructure is still there.
Garmin has been topping the hypocrisy here. Not only maintaining USPS' locations, but also their personnel and riders. Meanwhile shouting CLEANS off the rooftops.

 

[pastronef]

http://cyclingtips.com/2016/03/the-science-behind-cannondales-altitude-training-camp-explained/

Shane Stokes writes about altitude training

 

[sniper]

http://cyclingtips.com/2016/03/the-science-behind-cannondales-altitude-training-camp-explained/

Shane Stokes writes about altitude training

yikes that's weak sauce from Shane.
not asking any questions.
Citing ex-ONCE and Garmin doping doc San Millan as a specialist on altitude training.
Pulleaze. Might as well ask Cancellara whether he thinks motors are widespread.
Why not ask a real antidoping specialist? (not that those are easy to find, but still, Shane could try)
And that antidoping pamflet at the end is about as naive as anything i've ever read on antidoping.
Shane taking everything from the horse's mouth as gospel now?
What is the world coming to.

 

[pastronef]

http://cyclingtips.com/2016/03/the-science-behind-cannondales-altitude-training-camp-explained/

Shane Stokes writes about altitude training

yikes that's weak sauce from Shane.
not asking any questions.
And that antidoping pamflet at the end is about as naive as anything i've ever read on antidoping.
Shane taking everything from the horse's mouth as gospel now?
What is the world coming to.

I posted the link just to read that kind of reply

 

[sniper]

 

[wrinklyvet]

http://cyclingtips.com/2016/03/the-science-behind-cannondales-altitude-training-camp-explained/

Shane Stokes writes about altitude training

yikes that's weak sauce from Shane.
not asking any questions.
And that antidoping pamflet at the end is about as naive as anything i've ever read on antidoping.
Shane taking everything from the horse's mouth as gospel now?
What is the world coming to.

I posted the link just to read that kind of reply

Brilliant work pastronef. We are indebted to sniper!

I've been up there (by car though ). Very attached to the place.

 

[vedrafjord]

So the doc says time at altitude can swing haematocrit by 3 points in either direction? Adios passport...

 

[.Froomestrong.]

Re:

So the doc says time at altitude can swing haematocrit by 3 points in either direction? Adios passport...

Thats crazy- 3 points?

Ive been tracking my hematocrit for the last 5 years, and it hasnt budged. Its 46.5, and has been.
Whats crazy is Ive lost almost 40lbs, and lots of other blood values have changed- HDL, LDL, Liver values, even thyroid values...but not HCT.
I need to go train at altitude!

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

So the doc says time at altitude can swing haematocrit by 3 points in either direction? Adios passport...

Thats crazy- 3 points?

Ive been tracking my hematocrit for the last 5 years, and it hasnt budged. Its 46.5, and has been.
Whats crazy is Ive lost almost 40lbs, and lots of other blood values have changed- HDL, LDL, Liver values, even thyroid values...but not HCT.
I need to go train at altitude!

Dont forget the Edgar allen Poe

 

[sniper]

Re:

So the doc says time at altitude can swing haematocrit by 3 points in either direction? Adios passport...

this, and it's crazy that Shane doesn't reflect on this.
Shane on the bandwagon. Say it aint so.

 

[pastronef]

Apr. 17
Joe Dombrowski ‏@JoeDombro
@sean_0406 I don't know how often testers come up here, but I was tested on Thursday.

 

[Mr.38%]

Apr. 17
Joe Dombrowski ‏@JoeDombro
@sean_0406 I don't know how often testers come up here, but I was tested on Thursday.

sniper will prove, Dombrowski is lying and his father in law invented EPO in the peloton.

 

[Benotti69]

https://twitter.com/ulif/status/762999461262008320

Teide is for dopers. If you don't dope, train where you have variation and a life.

 

[sniper]

Re:

https://twitter.com/ulif/status/762999461262008320

Teide is for dopers. If you don't dope, train where you have variation and a life.

Uli. He,s an endurance sport event organiser and he could easily be tempted to go along with the clean generation narrative. But he doesn't. I dont know him well but from what i can tell he's really trying to make a difference, although it's a drop on a hot plate.

Note also that he seems to have quite a few contacts on the inside, pros and expros, also cyclists. So when he says something like this, it should not be dismissed as mere mudthrowing.

 

[Benotti69]

Apr. 17
Joe Dombrowski ‏@JoeDombro
@sean_0406 I don't know how often testers come up here, but I was tested on Thursday.

sniper will prove, Dombrowski is lying and his father in law invented EPO in the peloton.

Dombro forgot to thank the phone call a few hours earlier telling him testers had landed and were on their way.

 

[sniper]

Apr. 17
Joe Dombrowski ‏@JoeDombro
@sean_0406 I don't know how often testers come up here, but I was tested on Thursday.

sniper will prove, Dombrowski is lying and his father in law invented EPO in the peloton.

Dombro forgot to thank the phone call a few hours earlier telling him testers had landed and were on their way.

the other thing about Tenerife is the tests don't count for the blood passport, because it's at altitude.
And doesn't know how often the testers come up there? Lol. Yes, he's lying.
So that's a pretty dumb tweet from Dumbrowski.
And why is he tweeting about it as if it has any kind of bearing on his cleanliness? Never tested positive?
So yeah, pretty cheap from Dombro, but there are always fans who buy it.
Reminds me of Race Radio who tweeted something about Dombro being clean because he's on Strava.

 

[Benotti69]

blackcat; choose life choo smack chew a job chew acar

 

[pastronef]

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/17461391.2016.1139190?journalCode=tejs20

Ventilatory acclimatisation is beneficial for high-intensity exercise at altitude in elite cyclists

 

[buckle]

"Unusually for a track coach, Salzwedel is a believer in altitude camps and road races for his track riders, meaning he has had them schlepping up Mt Teide in Tenerife, most famously used by Team Sky for their Tour de France preparations, for much of the winter".

All this plus magic bikes and good hotels is all you need ...