Wigans goes there. Cadence!

[hrotha]

If part of Wiggans previous training included upper body weight training, simply decreasing the volume of upper-body weight training, or stopping altogether, could account for atrophy of upper torso/arm musculature.

We're talking about up to 8 kg of upper body muscle weight...

 

[the big ring]

We're talking about up to 8 kg of upper body muscle weight...

I have heard you cannot spot reduce fat, but according to Sky / Wiggins / entourage, you can decide exactly where catabolism of skeletal muscle is going to occur.

Is there a study anywhere showing intentional spot muscle reduction whilst leaving desired muscle mass untouched?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

If part of Wiggans previous training included upper body weight training, simply decreasing the volume of upper-body weight training, or stopping altogether, could account for atrophy of upper torso/arm musculature.

A bit like

"We’ve really trained to the demands of this year’s Tour so one of the areas we’ve worked on was the steeper climbs. It was one of the areas I wasn’t comfortable with in the past. I had a lot of rehab to do last year after I broke my collarbone and one of the things that was flagged up in the Vuelta last year, that I had no upper body strength, especially on the side that I broke my collarbone on. It was something that I worked on in the gym and I really improved all my core strength and upper body strength. We’ve covered every area."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wiggins-and-sky-surprised-at-stage-7-damage
Wait a minute, upping body strenght but no gain of weight? Even losing weight. Sure Brad.

When will people understand this farce.

 

[TheInternet]

We're talking about up to 8 kg of upper body muscle weight...

I lost 12 kg of upper body mass over a 3 month period (muscle atrophy and fat loss) after stopping a track/sprint regime (two weight room sessions per day, 5 days a week) to just riding my bike 3+ hours a day (and dieting...). Obviously, I was no pro, but muscle atrophy can occur at a very fast rate nonetheless.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wigg...stage-7-damage
Wait a minute, upping body strenght but no gain of weight? Even losing weight. Sure Brad.

When will people understand this farce.

It may indeed be a farce, but we may also be arguing over the wrong information. For example, the 5% body fat claim...how consistent was Wiggins' body fat over the time period his weight fluctuated? His body mass claim? Are we trying to explain how he went from 77kg to 69kg, or 71 kg to 69kg, and over what time periods and what training regimes? Could the drop from 77kg to 71kg in 2009 be simply muscle atrophy due to the discontinuation of an upper-body strength routine? Dropping from 71 to 69kg is trivial, and any gains in strength from the weight room could have been neurologically-based (e.g. gains through motor unit recruitment) in the absence of increased muscle mass.

This doesn't provide argument for or against whether Wiggins gains are through doping. This simply says the argument that his weight-loss and reported strength gains, at least related to the upper body, can be accounted for by basic principles of exercise physiology.

 

[mastersracer]

FWIW, Wiggins' column from 2009.


"I was climbing fairly well in the 2007 Tour, but I've lost seven kilos since then: 78 to 71. It's taken nine months, in little increments, without any sort of crash diet. I've had regular check‑ups with Nigel Mitchell, the nutritionist at the Olympic team, to make sure I'm only burning fat, not any muscle. The last one was the day before the national championship, 28 June. He said I didn't have an ounce of fat left on my body. I was at 4% body fat, which is just at the point where you begin to burn muscle because there's nothing else left. It's not a very healthy level to be at, but it's only for these four weeks. It's been perfectly timed. As soon as the Tour is finished, my wife Cath is going to tie me up and force‑feed me cake."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2009/jul/19/bradley-wiggins-tour-de-france

 

[TheInternet]

FWIW, Wiggins' column from 2009...

And back to Boyer's claims:

We know from Eric Boyer - Former Cofidis DS - that the 2007 Wiggins had 5% of fat mass, "he had nothing to lose" said Boyer in an interview in 2009.
http://www.lavoixdessports.com/Tour-...onte-qui.shtml

Was Boyer's claim that Wiggins was at 5% body fat at 71kg, or 5% at 77kg when he started dropping mass, as Hrotha alluded? This thread started due to BS claims Wiggins made, so would it be no less prudent to suspect other disclosures as BS? (e.g. his claim to have lost 6kg but absolutely none of it was muscle mass?) There is high enough variability in total body composition to provide significant error to nullify any claim that muscle mass was not lost over a weight loss period, and that does not include actual measurement error associated with the technique used to assess body fat percentage.

IMO, there is just too much variability, unaccounted factors, and potential embellishment to suggest that Wiggins weight profile offers conclusive evidence...that's not to say suspected gains in power-to-weight ratio are not unrealistic, but rather how and where he lost that weight is not unrealistic.

 

[the big ring]

I lost 12 kg of upper body mass over a 3 month period (muscle atrophy and fat loss) after stopping a track/sprint regime (two weight room sessions per day, 5 days a week) to just riding my bike 3+ hours a day (and dieting...). Obviously, I was no pro, but muscle atrophy can occur at a very fast rate nonetheless.

And if your power stayed the same, we could use it as an unbiased argument that what Brad is claiming is possible clean.

How was your power after this 3 month period?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

It may indeed be a farce, but we may also be arguing over the wrong information. For example, the 5% body fat claim...how consistent was Wiggins' body fat over the time period his weight fluctuated? His body mass claim? Are we trying to explain how he went from 77kg to 69kg, or 71 kg to 69kg, and over what time periods and what training regimes? Could the drop from 77kg to 71kg in 2009 be simply muscle atrophy due to the discontinuation of an upper-body strength routine? Dropping from 71 to 69kg is trivial, and any gains in strength from the weight room could have been neurologically-based (e.g. gains through motor unit recruitment) in the absence of increased muscle mass.

All very good questions everybody should ask.

Thanks for the open mind.

 

[hrotha]

Was Boyer's claim that Wiggins was at 5% body fat at 71kg, or 5% at 77kg when he started dropping mass, as Hrotha alluded?

Boyer's direct quote:

La perte de poids (71 kilos pour 1,90 m), secret de la réussite ? Éric Boyer n'y croit pas une seconde : « Il dit qu'il a perdu 6 kilos, je me demande bien où ! Quand on n'a que 5 % de masse graisseuse, c'est peu et chez nous, avec 6 kilos de plus, il était déjà à 5 % ! »

Is weight loss (71 kg at 1,90 m) the secret of his success? Éric Boyer doesn't believe it for a second: "He says he's lost 6 kg, but I wonder, from where? When you only have 5% body fat that's very little, and back when he was with us, weighing 6 extra kg, he was already at 5%!"

Again, the Olympic Games site lists his weight as 77 kg. It would be interesting - nay, crucial, to know how they got that figure, if they measured it themselves or got it just by asking or whatever.

 

[the big ring]

Again, the Olympic Games site lists his weight as 77 kg. It would be interesting - nay, crucial, to know how they got that figure, if they measured it themselves or got it just by asking or whatever.

When Team Sky website lists it at 69kg, as did letour.fr

ETA: Massive sense of dejavu discussing an amazing performance by a rider, explained away by "weightloss and focus on cadence". I know it's been mentioned to death already, but ... ugh. Smoke and friggin' mirrors.

 

[TheInternet]

And if your power stayed the same, we could use it as an unbiased argument that what Brad is claiming is possible clean.

How was your power after this 3 month period?

That's a great question and for part of the answer, I do not have data, just my bhutt-dynamometer. As for peak-power, I did not gain any acceleration/speed over the period where I gained strength and mass in the weight room (this was based on flying 200m times from the previous year), but I maintained consistency round-to-round. When I lost the muscle mass, I probably lost a bit off the top-end, too...but I was living in a different location and was not about to compete on a velodrome for another 3 years.

As for VO2 max, with the weight loss came a steady improvement in VO2, from 58ml/kg/min to 76ml/kg/min. This was not all attributable to weight-loss as I achieved some psychological gains that aided both my training and my ability to keep pedaling as the load increased during a VO2 max test. I certainly became a much better climber during this short period, which I believe was a combination of both.

I don't know if any of this provides a meaningful comparison to Wiggins, as I was not an elite athlete transitioning from the pinnacle of success in one discipline to another; rather, despite being a decent regional-level sprinter (e.g. a state championship and a few runner-ups), I suspect that I may have been better suited to a different discipline, but was limited at the time by what I believed to be my specialty. Certainly, I liked the idea of a 3-lap race, followed by sitting in the infield and BS'ing with friends a lot more than a 3-hour slog in the pack.

 

[the big ring]

Certainly, I liked the idea of a 3-lap race, followed by sitting in the infield and BS'ing with friends a lot more than a 3-hour slog in the pack.

True sprinter then

It was not a good question, as clearly you were fast twitch focused and moved to slow twitch training, so apologies for getting personal.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

FWIW, Wiggins' column from 2009.


"I was climbing fairly well in the 2007 Tour,

Dunno if their was a climb in the prologue?

2007 4e in Proloog Tour de France, London (FRA)
2007 86e in 1e etappe Tour de France, Canterbury (FRA)
2007 161e in 2e etappe Tour de France, Gent (FRA)
2007 125e in 3e etappe Tour de France, Compiègne (FRA)
2007 123e in 4e etappe Tour de France, Joigny (FRA)
2007 124e in 5e etappe Tour de France, Autun (FRA)
2007 183e in 6e etappe Tour de France, Bourg-en-Bresse (FRA)
2007 170e in 7e etappe Tour de France, Le Grand Bornard (FRA)
2007 144e in 8e etappe Tour de France, Tignes (FRA)
2007 164e in 9e etappe Tour de France, Briançon (FRA)
2007 141e in 10e etappe Tour de France, Marseille (FRA)
2007 108e in 11e etappe Tour de France, Montpellier (FRA)
2007 117e in 12e etappe Tour de France, Castres (FRA)
2007 5e in 13e etappe Tour de France, Albi (FRA)
2007 147e in 14e etappe Tour de France, Plateau de Beille (FRA)
2007 149e in 15e etappe Tour de France, Loudenvielle-Le Louron (FRA)
2007 135e in 16e etappe Tour de France, Gourette-Col d’Aubisque (FRA)

As soon as the Tour is finished, my wife Cath is going to tie me up and force‑feed me cake.

That must have been space cake.

4% bodymass fat, sick stuff. Rasmussen the sequal.

 

[the big ring]

If, at 82kg + 570W for 4:15, Brad Wiggins had a VO2(max) of 80 ml/m/kg: given that he rode the Tour at 69kg, that gives him a relative VO2 of 95 ml/m/kg.

No wonder he won the Tour.

 

[BroDeal]

Dunno if their was a climb in the prologue?

2007 4e in Proloog Tour de France, London (FRA)
2007 86e in 1e etappe Tour de France, Canterbury (FRA)
2007 161e in 2e etappe Tour de France, Gent (FRA)
2007 125e in 3e etappe Tour de France, Compiègne (FRA)
2007 123e in 4e etappe Tour de France, Joigny (FRA)
2007 124e in 5e etappe Tour de France, Autun (FRA)
2007 183e in 6e etappe Tour de France, Bourg-en-Bresse (FRA)
2007 170e in 7e etappe Tour de France, Le Grand Bornard (FRA)
2007 144e in 8e etappe Tour de France, Tignes (FRA)
2007 164e in 9e etappe Tour de France, Briançon (FRA)
2007 141e in 10e etappe Tour de France, Marseille (FRA)
2007 108e in 11e etappe Tour de France, Montpellier (FRA)
2007 117e in 12e etappe Tour de France, Castres (FRA)
2007 5e in 13e etappe Tour de France, Albi (FRA)
2007 147e in 14e etappe Tour de France, Plateau de Beille (FRA)
2007 149e in 15e etappe Tour de France, Loudenvielle-Le Louron (FRA)
2007 135e in 16e etappe Tour de France, Gourette-Col d’Aubisque (FRA)

This may be the worst Tour performance in history by someone who would go on to win the race in future years. I dare say that Cavendish or Quaranta could have outclimbed the 2007 Wiggins.

 

[Benotti69]

This may be the worst Tour performance in history by someone who would go on to win the race in future years. I dare say that Cavendish or Quaranta could have outclimbed the 2007 Wiggins......

..and yet 5 years later with some warm downs after stages he wins the race with a team that dominated from start to finish.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

..and yet 5 years later with some warm downs after stages he wins the race with a team that dominated from start to finish.

And now we can say 'thanx UCI for that great BP'.

Lol. Or just sad.

 

[Krebs cycle]

So, what u are basicly saying is it doesn't matter how fast the flat stages go, everything is messured up the mountains? Bullocks.

And, for the good of it, this Tour wasn't the fastest, I did not state that. It was faster than those mentioned, known EPO Tours as well. Sounds interesting to me.

Epic cycling performance analysis fail. Nothing more to say here really. If you don't understand why the above is incorrect, then I can't help you. Why don't you follow the link and have a read of what it actually says.

And really must I point out the massive hypocrisy here? Above you say that only looking to the mtns is bullocks and then in the SAME post you link to the figure below.....

I see no improvement in 2008 for Wiggo, gotta make that clear to me please.

2009 is a different ballgame, climb to Verbiers being quite interesting we might say, the highest VAM ever [!] in the Tour we are led to believe with the reborn climber Brad Wiggins just a minute behind Contador?

Stating that was all to thank to the BP is quite a contradiction in terminus we might say.

Then we move to Brad 2010: nothing, no results. Nothing like 2009. Loses more than half an hour to the previous year's Tour. At the end of 2010 a certain doctor enters Team Sky resulting in a much better 2011 and extraterrestial 2012.

Indeed, all thanks to the BP.

I will do, thanx for the upper. But promise me you will think about Wiggo at Verbiers, he climbed at the speed of Pantani.

Lets have a look at the speed Wiggins actually did climb on stage 17 this year when chasing Valverde......

Wiggins & co today climbed at 1680m/h for 24:28 (~6W/kg). VAM issues aside,compare to historical Tour performances:

https://twitter.com/Scienceofsport/status/225697706218246144

So lets get this straight... according to you, in 2009 Wiggins was climbing as fast as Pantani even though you haven't bothered to check what that VAM might have been. Well since you are so lazy, I did it for you. Using the data from the same place the above figure came from, then if Wiggins started the climb with Contador and he finished 1min 6sec behind, then his VAM was 1769m/hr. Wow! Even slower than the entire peloton went in 2007. But if we use a time of 20&#8217] then it puts Contador at 1830m/hr and Wiggins at 1738m/hr. Wow! even slower still!

But anyway, you claimed that Wiggins was climbing as fast as Pantani (which simply isn't even close to the truth), so lets imagine (something you obviously do a lot when examining cycling performance) that he was. That would mean that from 2009 through to the present, after Team Sky employed their dodgey doctors and got Wiggins' "program" sorted, that he actually went SLOWER this year, about 140m/hr slower actually. So slow that its off the bottom of the chart!! ZOMG EXTRATERRESTRIAL!!!

How are you going to explain that away now? Oh wait let me guess, Wiggins put ON weight so of course he would go slower up the mtns.... oh noes Wiggins' put on weight? Wouldn't that mean he improved his absolute power and would thus go faster in the flat ITTs?

Oh its all so confusing I just don't get it. Ahh fudge, I don't think I'll even bother trying to understand. It's just easier if I assume Wiggins is doping. This fact stuff really hurts my brain

 

[acoggan]

current maximum power levels are based upon data from those who dope

None of the recent world champions/world record holders who form the top "anchor" of my power profiling charts have ever tested positive. Hence, unless you know something that you should report to WADA, your statement technically isn't correct.

 

[Krebs cycle]

By the looks of the graph above, the climbing speeds in this years tour are the slowest they have been for nearly 20yrs, and not just by a small amount, but by a lot. In 1995 Indurain's bike weighed 8.1 kg, this yr Wiggins' bike was 6.8kg.

Nibali is also going slower up the mtns this year compared with 2009.

So either everyone just prepared real bad this year or maybe, just maybe, the performance gains from doping are getting smaller.

 

[biker jk]

None of the recent world champions/world record holders who form the top "anchor" of my power profiling charts have ever tested positive. Hence, unless you know something that you should report to WADA, your statement technically isn't correct.

So if you made this statement in late 1996 then Riis could be at the top of your power charts and he wouldn't have tested positive but was doping.

 

[kielbasa]

If, at 82kg + 570W for 4:15, Brad Wiggins had a VO2(max) of 80 ml/m/kg: given that he rode the Tour at 69kg, that gives him a relative VO2 of 95 ml/m/kg.

No wonder he won the Tour.

Assuming that absolute VO2max stays the same at a lower lean body weight.

 

[will10]

This may be the worst Tour performance in history by someone who would go on to win the race in future years. I dare say that Cavendish or Quaranta could have outclimbed the 2007 Wiggins.

General Classification After Stage 16
1 Michael Rasmussen (Den) Rabobank 76.15.15
2 Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 3.10
3 Cadel Evans (Aus) Predictor - Lotto 5.03

123 Bernhard Eisel (Aut) T-Mobile Team 3.23.06
131 Bradley Wiggins (GBr) Cofidis - Le Crédit par Téléphone 3.24.29

 

[Ferminal]

Eisel to join the Tenerife club if they can separate him and Cav?

 

[BroDeal]

None of the recent world champions/world record holders who form the top "anchor" of my power profiling charts have ever tested positive. Hence, unless you know something that you should report to WADA, your statement technically isn't correct.

Yeah, Armstrong never tested positive either.

Come one, dude. That is a risible statement.