- Sep 27, 2017
- 2,203
- 49
- 5,530
Re: Re:
The pre Giro one seems a bit at odds here....i mean you could possibly buy the reasoning about high pollen seasons through the fields of France in June and July......but what about Italy in May?
The Giro is notorious for the changeable weather, genuine question....is pollen the same issue there in May?
King Boonen said:
The pre Giro one seems a bit at odds here....i mean you could possibly buy the reasoning about high pollen seasons through the fields of France in June and July......but what about Italy in May?
The Giro is notorious for the changeable weather, genuine question....is pollen the same issue there in May?
Re: Re:
Apparently is an interesting word isn't it? Scientists are still finding new things about all kinds of drugs. Many drugs produce effects that are still not yet fully understood. It looks like Sky has a pharmacy programme to me and they may see long term advantages in microdosing triamcinolone that most experts don't see.
I doubt very much that Wiggin would be disqualified from the Tour with traces of triamcinolone, even in the last week.
Merckx index said:
Apparently is an interesting word isn't it? Scientists are still finding new things about all kinds of drugs. Many drugs produce effects that are still not yet fully understood. It looks like Sky has a pharmacy programme to me and they may see long term advantages in microdosing triamcinolone that most experts don't see.
I doubt very much that Wiggin would be disqualified from the Tour with traces of triamcinolone, even in the last week.
Re: Re:
IIRC Wiggo's triamcinolene injections were intra-muscular rather than intra-venous and as a result the release into the system was much slower the theory being that that allowed for top ups during the GTs in question and in 2012 a top up before the Olympics
Beech Mtn said:
IIRC Wiggo's triamcinolene injections were intra-muscular rather than intra-venous and as a result the release into the system was much slower the theory being that that allowed for top ups during the GTs in question and in 2012 a top up before the Olympics
- Sep 27, 2017
- 2,203
- 49
- 5,530
Re: Re:
Yes, in the BBC interview, that's exactly what he said...only ever used 4 times and flatly denied the report saying he'd used it more than that. In his own words anyone saying he's used it more than that was maliciously trying to smear him.
Merckx index said:
Yes, in the BBC interview, that's exactly what he said...only ever used 4 times and flatly denied the report saying he'd used it more than that. In his own words anyone saying he's used it more than that was maliciously trying to smear him.
- Aug 12, 2009
- 2,814
- 110
- 11,680
Re: Re:
because the system can be gamed if you have a doc (in this case that would be the doc who lost the laptop and never turned up to the committee) who is prepared to say you need a TUE when you may not need a TUE
If that were to be the case then there is an infringement
also not sure if you noticed that the pharmacy cupboard was a shared resource between BC and SKY and...well...they have no records....
oh...and we have an 'outperforming' track team at BC... lots of enhanced performances there.......
Alpe73 said:
because the system can be gamed if you have a doc (in this case that would be the doc who lost the laptop and never turned up to the committee) who is prepared to say you need a TUE when you may not need a TUE
If that were to be the case then there is an infringement
also not sure if you noticed that the pharmacy cupboard was a shared resource between BC and SKY and...well...they have no records....
oh...and we have an 'outperforming' track team at BC... lots of enhanced performances there.......
- Sep 16, 2010
- 7,617
- 1,052
- 20,680
Re:
Basically, they're the department for sport, they can look at most anything sporting related. There is also the question of money being spent, specifically money being spent combating doping. This article may be of some interest to you:jarvo said:
The rest of the article has some interesting things to say in general.
I think it matters because rules are not set in stone, rules evolve, rules can be both proactive and reactive. The DCMS report is proposing reactive rule changes.jarvo said:
In Wiggins's case, it wasn't a panel of experts: it was one man. UCI have put their hand up to that issue and say it's fixed. In Froome's case, there's no panel of experts, there's a threshold. Furthemore, rules are there to be gamed, rules will always be gamed.jarvo said:
The issue is ethics and morality and whether rules need to be amended. The OOC use of certain substances is clearly being gamed by some.jarvo said:
Could we please *** off already with the caffeine? Seriously, in all my years following this sport, everybody thinks they're being clever bringing up coffee. They're not.jarvo said:
Some would argue that Sky are worse than LA in that: a) they arrived at a time when the culture of the sport was changing and a new generation was coming through; and b) they trumpeted an ethical stance and their deeds have fallen far short of their words. Some, anyway, would say that.jarvo said:
The legality of loopholes is never clear until those making use of them get challenged. See the recent discussion of tax avoidance.jarvo said:
I'm sure you would.jarvo said:
Re: Re:
after the facts?! this forum has existed a long time and numerous contributors have pointed to skys (and other teams) suspicious results long before now!
Alpe73 said:
after the facts?! this forum has existed a long time and numerous contributors have pointed to skys (and other teams) suspicious results long before now!
- Jul 1, 2011
- 1,566
- 10
- 10,510
Re: Re:
The full transcript of yesterday's interview - where he says four times use - is here http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/43294639.
On digging this out link I realise my earlier posts were wrong - I said he used it for hayfever not ashtma, but in fact he's saying it was pollen induced ashtma (is that a bit of both?). I also said re the timing of the TUE that he claimed he couldn't race for 10 days afterwards, but I can't actually see him say that - he does say re the non-TUE OOC use that he didn't need a TUE because he wasn't going to race in the next 2 weeks. He also says he didn't use it OOC on the bus after the dauphine in 2011, because if he had it would have showed up in his British Road Race test (which he won) and he would have got banned, which I think last night I must have taken as meaning he couldn't use the drug OOC and then race a week later!
brownbobby said:
The full transcript of yesterday's interview - where he says four times use - is here http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/43294639.
On digging this out link I realise my earlier posts were wrong - I said he used it for hayfever not ashtma, but in fact he's saying it was pollen induced ashtma (is that a bit of both?). I also said re the timing of the TUE that he claimed he couldn't race for 10 days afterwards, but I can't actually see him say that - he does say re the non-TUE OOC use that he didn't need a TUE because he wasn't going to race in the next 2 weeks. He also says he didn't use it OOC on the bus after the dauphine in 2011, because if he had it would have showed up in his British Road Race test (which he won) and he would have got banned, which I think last night I must have taken as meaning he couldn't use the drug OOC and then race a week later!
- Aug 12, 2009
- 2,814
- 110
- 11,680
Re: Re:
yup discussing newsworthy event on a...eh...discussion board...crazy eh....I'm a crazy guy
Alpe73 said:
yup discussing newsworthy event on a...eh...discussion board...crazy eh....I'm a crazy guy
Re: Re:
The national road race in 2011 was 26th June, two weeks after the end of Dauphine. I doubt he would've been showing any traces after 2 weeks.
Interestingly the RR champ is also the day the TUE was authorized and given it is only that day, he was I guess taking the drug on the day he won the national RR.
RownhamHill said:
The national road race in 2011 was 26th June, two weeks after the end of Dauphine. I doubt he would've been showing any traces after 2 weeks.
Interestingly the RR champ is also the day the TUE was authorized and given it is only that day, he was I guess taking the drug on the day he won the national RR.
I use Triamcinolone - I have Psoriatic Arthritis & Ankylosing Spondylitis and I use the drug when I feel a flare up coming on. I also have asthma - what I’ve personally found with Triamcinolone is that it’s effects on breathing are pretty negligible - when I’ve used it I still have to use my salbutamol inhaler as often as normal when cycling. Oral prednisolone is much more effective and if I’m prescribed that to manage my asthma during say a respiratory infection or a cold the effect is very noticeable.
The thing with Triamcinolone is that it’s so powerful. The day after I’ve had a shot of 120 to 160mg I clock up PBs on almost every segment I ride on Strava (I train daily) and it doesn’t even feel like I’m putting any effort in. Pain threshold goes up too - I can hold a higher wattage for much longer. The other effect is weight - it can strip you of anywhere between 1 to 4kg in a week. However, I’ve found that the weight loss is temporary, it creeps back up unless you’re severely calorie deficient. It’s insane the temporary effect it has on performance though - and I don’t even use it for that effect, it’s just something I notice.
There’s no way Wiggins and Freeman didn’t choose this drug because of the performance enhancement. He probably did have allergies causing respiratory distress.....but there are a myriad of effective but less powerful drugs that could have been used instead. A GP for example wouldn’t prescribe I.M Kenalog for this. It’s a sledgehammer to crack a nut. I think, and many others do, that Triamcinolone was chosen because it is a performance enhancer.
The thing with Triamcinolone is that it’s so powerful. The day after I’ve had a shot of 120 to 160mg I clock up PBs on almost every segment I ride on Strava (I train daily) and it doesn’t even feel like I’m putting any effort in. Pain threshold goes up too - I can hold a higher wattage for much longer. The other effect is weight - it can strip you of anywhere between 1 to 4kg in a week. However, I’ve found that the weight loss is temporary, it creeps back up unless you’re severely calorie deficient. It’s insane the temporary effect it has on performance though - and I don’t even use it for that effect, it’s just something I notice.
There’s no way Wiggins and Freeman didn’t choose this drug because of the performance enhancement. He probably did have allergies causing respiratory distress.....but there are a myriad of effective but less powerful drugs that could have been used instead. A GP for example wouldn’t prescribe I.M Kenalog for this. It’s a sledgehammer to crack a nut. I think, and many others do, that Triamcinolone was chosen because it is a performance enhancer.
- Jul 1, 2011
- 1,566
- 10
- 10,510
Re: Re:
That's interesting. Are you sure it was the 26th in 2011 and not 2012? If it was 2011 I'm surprised the Clinic hasn't unearthed that before (though maybe it has, I haven't been paying attention that closely for a while).
That's interesting. Are you sure it was the 26th in 2011 and not 2012? If it was 2011 I'm surprised the Clinic hasn't unearthed that before (though maybe it has, I haven't been paying attention that closely for a while).
- Mar 29, 2016
- 6,974
- 2
- 9,485
Cookster15
Moderator
- May 14, 2011
- 6,123
- 6,633
- 23,180
I recall around 2012 Cadel Evans mentioning something about "skinny climbers that can TT".
Triamcinolone for weight loss without power loss would seem to fit this knowing what we know today.
Triamcinolone for weight loss without power loss would seem to fit this knowing what we know today.
- Mar 10, 2009
- 9,245
- 23
- 17,530
Re:
Wiggins and other riders that are involved in the TUE system indicate that they need it to bring them back to their prime level of competitiveness (or something like that). How is it determined, if at all, that it isn't taking them above their previous prime level/or competitive level and giving them a competitive edge? Wiggins himself seemed to be uncertain as to if it did or not.
jarvo said:
Wiggins and other riders that are involved in the TUE system indicate that they need it to bring them back to their prime level of competitiveness (or something like that). How is it determined, if at all, that it isn't taking them above their previous prime level/or competitive level and giving them a competitive edge? Wiggins himself seemed to be uncertain as to if it did or not.
- May 11, 2013
- 13,995
- 5,289
- 28,180
Re: Re:
Wiggins has no idea what was in the jiffy bag. Nobody knows really. He didn’t had anything on the bus. Then they go to Sestriere. Wiggo says:
BBC: So there was no injection?
"No. Absolutely not. We travelled six hours later on a training camp to Sestiere at high altitude and I was treated that night when the doctor came with Fluimucil with a nebuliser.
He says he was given Fluimucil through nebulizer. To be noted that Fluimucil was used “in the old days” as a recovery drug injectable as witnessed by Froome at Barloworld where he got these injections (Kimmage interview).
BBC: Was there not something there that evening?
"In Sestriere, out of competition, not on the bus. Because we are still tidying up - I was doing podium, I was doing press, I was doing dope control. I had just won the race.
"We were going to a training camp then in Sestriere for one week after that, which we all travelled to from La Toussuire to Sestriere, a three-hour drive, two-and-a-half-hour drive, whatever it is. The doctor came with us to Sestriere to then treat the riders, whatever they needed, any niggles."
BBC: Which doctor?
"Doctor Freeman."
To be noted that Wiggo says: “out of competition”. It doesn’t matter when you take fluimucil, it’s legal so why mention “OOC”?
BBC: So they go to the trouble of bringing Fluimucil that they could have bought locally all the way over from Manchester via Simon Cope, which you were then given the following day?
"That evening. The same evening, the day the race finished. We then drove to Sestriere, Dr Freeman came to Sestriere, we were all then treated then. Everyone is scrambling around at the end of races, getting their bags, suitcases, people are going different directions."
BBC: You are saying you don't know what was in this package?
"I don't know. I can only go on what I have been told. Apparently it was for me, I don't know. Could have been for anyone, but apparently it was for me.
"The anonymous source said it was for me, so I don't know. I can only tell you, if it did have Triamcinolone in it, it didn't go in my backside. Which is what is being suggested, because it would have shown in my urine at the National Road Race."
The national Road Race was in two weeks time on the 26th of June 2011, Dauphine finished on June 12. I am not so sure it would have shown after 14 days in the urine, This study, albeit for IA injection Kenacort 40 mg gives a detection time of 12 days.:
https://lib.ugent.be/fulltxt/RUG01/001/034/424/RUG01-001034424_2010_0001_AC.pdf
Why is Wiggo giving this type of excuse? Although he lost his laptop in Greece, I am pretty sure Freeman knows exactly for how long Kenacort can be detected in urine.
RownhamHill said:
Wiggins has no idea what was in the jiffy bag. Nobody knows really. He didn’t had anything on the bus. Then they go to Sestriere. Wiggo says:
BBC: So there was no injection?
"No. Absolutely not. We travelled six hours later on a training camp to Sestiere at high altitude and I was treated that night when the doctor came with Fluimucil with a nebuliser.
He says he was given Fluimucil through nebulizer. To be noted that Fluimucil was used “in the old days” as a recovery drug injectable as witnessed by Froome at Barloworld where he got these injections (Kimmage interview).
BBC: Was there not something there that evening?
"In Sestriere, out of competition, not on the bus. Because we are still tidying up - I was doing podium, I was doing press, I was doing dope control. I had just won the race.
"We were going to a training camp then in Sestriere for one week after that, which we all travelled to from La Toussuire to Sestriere, a three-hour drive, two-and-a-half-hour drive, whatever it is. The doctor came with us to Sestriere to then treat the riders, whatever they needed, any niggles."
BBC: Which doctor?
"Doctor Freeman."
To be noted that Wiggo says: “out of competition”. It doesn’t matter when you take fluimucil, it’s legal so why mention “OOC”?
BBC: So they go to the trouble of bringing Fluimucil that they could have bought locally all the way over from Manchester via Simon Cope, which you were then given the following day?
"That evening. The same evening, the day the race finished. We then drove to Sestriere, Dr Freeman came to Sestriere, we were all then treated then. Everyone is scrambling around at the end of races, getting their bags, suitcases, people are going different directions."
BBC: You are saying you don't know what was in this package?
"I don't know. I can only go on what I have been told. Apparently it was for me, I don't know. Could have been for anyone, but apparently it was for me.
"The anonymous source said it was for me, so I don't know. I can only tell you, if it did have Triamcinolone in it, it didn't go in my backside. Which is what is being suggested, because it would have shown in my urine at the National Road Race."
The national Road Race was in two weeks time on the 26th of June 2011, Dauphine finished on June 12. I am not so sure it would have shown after 14 days in the urine, This study, albeit for IA injection Kenacort 40 mg gives a detection time of 12 days.:
https://lib.ugent.be/fulltxt/RUG01/001/034/424/RUG01-001034424_2010_0001_AC.pdf
Why is Wiggo giving this type of excuse? Although he lost his laptop in Greece, I am pretty sure Freeman knows exactly for how long Kenacort can be detected in urine.
- Sep 27, 2017
- 2,203
- 49
- 5,530
Just been browsing on eBay...some real good deals on Rapha kit if you don't mind the Wiggins logo. It's like a few years back when you could pick up the Nike Livestrong kit for peanuts :razz:
- Jul 1, 2011
- 1,566
- 10
- 10,510
Re: Re:
No idea.
It's especially weird given he apparently had the TUE injection in the same day as the road race. Wonder whether that was before or after?
No idea.
It's especially weird given he apparently had the TUE injection in the same day as the road race. Wonder whether that was before or after?
- Jul 1, 2011
- 1,566
- 10
- 10,510
TRENDING THREADS
-
Il Lombardia 2025, monument, October 11- Started by Krzysztof_O
- Replies: 742
-
World Championship 2025: Men’s RR, September 28- Started by Berniece
- Replies: 2K
-
European Championship 2025: Men’s RR, October 5- Started by Berniece
- Replies: 855
-
Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread- Started by DNP-Old
- Replies: 35K
-
Question Comparing Pogacar's two historical seasons
- Started by Krzysztof_O
- Replies: 30
-
Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread- Started by Lequack
- Replies: 40K
-
World Championship 2025: Men’s ITT, September 21- Started by Berniece
- Replies: 942
Facebook
Twitter
Instagram